Carlyle ripped by yet another ex player

[EDI-Flyer]

So, following in the footsteps of Bobby Ryan and Mikhail Grabovski, Clarke McArthur shares that he too wouldn't piss on Randy Carlyle if he was on fire. Okay, he doesn't actually say that, he actually says that he wouldn't speak to him if he passed him in the hallway. 

 

It all seems to be going well for Randy at the moment in TO but long term you have to wonder what his shelf life is before the players start to tune him out. Just hypothesizing here, but suppose you get Kessel, Clarkson, Lupul, Bozak and Reemer (all players on long term contracts) and they essentially stop playing for Carlyle. You can pretty much guarantee in this situation that the coach is the one leaving, not the players. Does Randy Carlyle need to re-evaluate his approach to players? I would say that if he wants a longer term future in the NHL that yes he needs to, and be open to change. 

 

The day of Mike Keenan has passed...

 

Full article can be found here: http://www.senatorsextra.com/main/macarthur-rips-former-coach-carlyle

 

Bobby Ryan was slightly more subtle about it.

 

But he and Clarke MacArthur agree on one thing – they wouldn’t say hello to their former head coach, Randy Carlyle, if they passed him in the hallway. “No,” MacArthur said from the visitors dressing room at the Air Canada Centre Saturday. “I’m going to go with no on that one.”

 

MacArthur, of course, played for Carlyle with the Maple Leafs last season, while Ryan had the hardline coach in Anaheim, where Carlyle directed his Ducks team to a 2007 Stanley Cup win over the Ottawa Senators. Both know the feeling of being benched, and made a healthy scratch.

 

Ryan and MacArthur are both Senators now, and surely have swapped some interesting stories about playing for no-nonsense Randy. Ryan and MacArthur were both facing their former coach for the first time in a regular season game as the Battle of Ontario, 2013 version, resumed Saturday. “I didn’t have a relationship with him, and not many guys do,” MacArthur said, of Carlyle. “He runs the show there, and everyone knows that, and that’s the way it is,” MacArthur added. “It’s worked for him in the past, he’s got a Cup from that, but at the same time there’s other ways to do things, too.”

 

A seven-year pro, MacArthur has been with four NHL clubs – Buffalo, Atlanta, Toronto and now Ottawa – but has never had a tougher coach than Carlyle, “not to that extent,” MacArthur says. Carlyle might take pride in administering tough love, but there isn’t a lot of player love going back his way. “Some guys are good with it. Some guys are good with the criticism, but they don’t want to hear it every single shift they come off the ice,” MacArthur says. “You’re old enough to know ‘I made a mistake,’ you don’t need to hear it every five seconds.”

“It weighs differently on different people, it was just — some long days.”

 

Nobody called out Carlyle than former Leaf Mikhail Grabovski, on his way out the door this summer after five seasons in Toronto.

 

“I play in the [expletive] Russian KHL, I make lots of [expletive] points and what’s going to happen? He make me [expletive] play on the fourth line and he put me in the playoffs on the fourth line and third line again,” Grabovski told TSN.ca. “Yeah, I don’t score goals. I need to work more about that. I know that. But if you feel support from your coach [you'll find success]. I don’t feel any support from this [expletive] idiot.”

 

“He said it all right there,” MacArthur says. “He certainly didn’t have a tight lip about it. That was something to see. He was frustrated. He was a guy who had 30 goals and two years of 55 or whatever points (58 and 51) and Randy came in, it just didn’t work out, he turned him into a checker. “Look at him now, four points in his first game, three goals. Who was right there? I know who’s right.”

 

After two games with the Washington Capitals, Grabovski has five points.

 

MacArthur knew he was gone from the Leafs long before his final game in Toronto. The stylish winger was livid over being made a healthy scratch for Games 2 and 3 of the Eastern Quarterfinal playoff series against the Boston Bruins last spring. MacArthur still managed to score two goals and an assist in the series. “It was tough the way it ended,” he says. “Getting scratched in the playoffs, that was it for me. I came back and scored some goals, did what I could for the team, but I was done here after that. The game of hockey – I wasn’t excited coming in any more. It was time to move on.” 

 

Signing with divisional-rival Ottawa wasn’t based on a revenge motive, MacArthur says. But no one would be happier to score against the Leafs.

 

Say hello, to a revamped Battle of Ontario.

 

 

 

 

[Commander Clueless]

Carlyle certainly does seem to wear down on players - more so some than others.

 

Grabovski and MacArthur were both forced by Carlyle into more of a shutdown than scoring role, which is ill-suited to either's game. Randy wanted his shutdown line but lacked the personnel. Kulemin is the only one on that former line who's game is suited to that role and even with him you have to wonder if you couldn't get more offense out of him. Maybe he'll click with Bolland and Raymond.

 

I feel for Mac and his being misused after playing well for Toronto (played pretty well for spurts on a scoring line even last year). I feel for Grabovski as well and am happy both found a spot where they can be in the role that suits them and that they enjoy.

 

Carlyle is certainly not a friendly coach, for better or worse. He gets in a mindset about players and it is tough to shake him out of it. While I may not be a fan of Carlyle's player relationship tactics, I will take Mean Ol' Randy and his usage of an actual system over Rotten Ronnie's Run-and-Gun all day every day.

 

I do think Carlyle will have a shelf life though. We'll see how long he lasts before mutiny occurs.

[jammer2]

@Commander Clueless  Funny, Caryle threw Grabo under the bus, put him in a role that was not conducive to pts production, and then shipped him out of town because he didn't live up to the contract. Now, all of a sudden, Grabo is offensive minded enough to be on the top pp in Washington with Ovechkin. I hope he scores 35 goals and makes Carlyle and the whole Leaf brass look bad. Grabo didn't deserve the treatment he received. Even in his shut down role he was excellent, no way they make it to game 7 with the Bruins without Grabo playing some excellent  2 way hockey. Carlyle does seem to rub some guys the wrong way, but as long as he is winning, all is good I guess....lol.

[Commander Clueless]

@jammer2

 

Yeah, Grabovski is and was a good player (while not producing anything in the playoffs, Grabovski played very well and did so with intensity), but it is good to see him "freed" in Washington. For whatever reason, Carlyle got it stuck in his head that Grabo needed to be his shutdown guy - although I guess it makes a certain amount of sense as Kadri was the better scorer last year (and can't play shutdown) while Grabo never really seemed to gel with Kessel, while Bozak did. If Grabovski had any chemistry on the top line I seriously doubt we would have seen him bought out. If anything, Bozak would have walked for Bolland, or Bolland would never have been traded for.

 

Count me as one who is happy to see Grabovski thrive...while dreading the day he returns to Toronto. I assume he'll go crazy. I'm also hopeful that Bolland is more suited to the role that Carlyle had previously thrust Grabovski into, but I guess we'll see. He certainly won't get as many points as Grabo will this year, but that's to be expected. As for MacArthur, I think Raymond adequately replaces him at a cheaper cost. While MacArthur is grittier and a better scorer IMO, Raymond is faster and better defensively while being cheaper. I think Raymond makes a better 3rd liner while MacArthur should be top six like he is in Ottawa.

 

On a semi-related note, Grabovski signed for $4 million, didn't he? Can't help but think they could have retained a bit of salary to move him and amnestied Liles for a better overall cap situation going forward.....

[jammer2]

@Commander Clueless  Nice post, we see Grabo the same way it appears. He does a lot of things that don't show up on a stat sheet. I agree, he didn't show any chemistry with Kessel, AND with the presence of Kadri, it almost slotted him into the shut down role. He was good at it too. I just think a lot of things went the wrong way for Grabo and it all added up to him being a member of another team. I'll always think he got a raw deal though.

 

  Also agree with McCarther. He is better suited for a top 6 role. Kinda dangerous to have him lurking on the Sens, playing 6 games a year with a chip on his shoulder, you just know he's gonna pop in a few game winners...ha ha. Raymond was a pleasant surprise. Can't say it was nice planning on the Leafs part, he just kinda fell into their laps, but he looks like a cheap addition with speed and moxy. I like the signing. You could tell right away in pre-season that Raymond belonged.

 

  Yeah, I could not figure out why the Leafs didn't buy out Liles, with all the depth on defense, he seemed like he had a redundant skill set and could have easily been replaced by a cheaper player who would have produced more pts.

[Commander Clueless]

Yeah, I will miss Grabo. I liked him a lot. I liked Mac too but I think his scathing remarks are less deserving than Grabo's. I will not look forward to either of them scoring against the Leafs, as ex-Leafs always do.

 

Raymond certainly has been a pleasant surprise as Mac's replacement. It was either awesome luck or double secret schrewdness on Nonis' part - I'm guessing the former. Still, credit where it's due.

 

Eerily similar situations, with MacArthur's arrival to the Leafs being in the form of a cheap ($1.1M I believe) "show us what you got" type contract.

[JR Ewing]

Playoffs: can't blame Grabovski for being frustrated. He was saddled with tough zone starts: 28.8%. Despite starting out the vast majority of his shifts next to his own net, his line still badly out-chanced the opposition and he was far and away the best centre in terms of chances/possession: +19.3 CorsiRel.

 

What Carlyle did with Grabovski is a textbook case on how to mismanage a player. Grabo had a good year in 2013, did a ton of heavy lifting from next to the Leafs net with weak linemates, and that let Kadri score easier points with plumb offensive zone starts. Despite those rough starts, the puck still moved the right way. A chart of the players who played 200 minutes with Grabovski, and Tyler Bozak over the last 5 years, for reference:

 

 

That's 17 of 18 players whose possession numbers improved, and not just a little bit either. WAY better.

 

There's nothing wrong with using Grabovski the way that Carlyle did. I'd rather throw tough minutes at a veteran who can handle them, but it's not right to treat him like a disappointment when (gasp!) his offensive numbers take a hit when his shifts start in his own end next to weak teammates. That's a damned good hockey player who they paid to play for somebody else.

 

JR

Edited October 7, 2013 by JR Ewing

[Commander Clueless]

Playoffs: can't blame Grabovski for being frustrated. He was saddled with tough zone starts: 28.8%. Despite starting out the vast majority of his shifts next to his own net, his line still badly out-chanced the opposition and he was far and away the best centre in terms of chances/possession: +19.3 CorsiRel.

 

What Carlyle did with Grabovski is a textbook case on how to mismanage a player. Grabo had a good year in 2013, did a ton of heavy lifting from next to the Leafs net with weak linemates, and that let Kadri score easier points with plumb offensive zone starts. Despite those rough starts, the puck still moved the right way. A chart of the players who played 200 minutes with Grabovski, and Tyler Bozak over the last 5 years, for reference:

 

 

That's 17 of 18 players whose possession numbers improved, and not just a little bit either. WAY better.

 

There's nothing wrong with using Grabovski the way that Carlyle did. I'd rather throw tough minutes at a veteran who can handle them, but it's not right to treat him like a disappointment when (gasp!) his offensive numbers take a hit when his shifts start in his own end next to weak teammates. That's a damned good hockey player who they paid to play for somebody else.

 

JR

 

While I agree, when a player makes $5.5M people (well fans...you know us Leafers) expect stats. STATS DARN YOU! You'll notice advanced stats don't favour Toronto, so those are best left ignored.

 

Grabovski certainly filled a role that was asked of him and not his ideal role, and for that I respect him. He had a right to be angry, although some of his comments during his "exit interview" weren't true. Grabovski was never played like a 4th liner...he was an effective 3rd line center with a larger price tag than many fans liked.

 

Carlyle can be a stubborn man. This is known, and can certainly be a negative.

 

Buyout was still frustrating. I can't believe they couldn't find even a crap deal for him....

[JR Ewing]

While I agree, when a player makes $5.5M people (well fans...you know us Leafers) expect stats. STATS DARN YOU! You'll notice advanced stats don't favour Toronto, so those are best left ignored.

I hear you. I know that almost nobody got past the low boxcar numbers. Pity.

 

Grabovski certainly filled a role that was asked of him and not his ideal role, and for that I respect him. He had a right to be angry, although some of his comments during his "exit interview" weren't true. Grabovski was never played like a 4th liner...he was an effective 3rd line center with a larger price tag than many fans liked.

 

Carlyle can be a stubborn man. This is known, and can certainly be a negative.

 

Buyout was still frustrating. I can't believe they couldn't find even a crap deal for him....

Agreed with all of that. If Craig MacTavish was able to find a taker for Shawn Horcoff and his cap hit, you'd think the Leafs could have gotten at least SOMEthing for Grabovski.

JR

[yave1964]

You are the GM of a team in need of a new coach.Okay, you have the choice between two coaches:

  One is a happy go lucky everyone loves him the players, the fans the reporters but he does not have a proven record for winning.

 

  The other is one of the games biggest pricks. He wins. He pushes his players, he is short with the press, he demands excellence of all around him at al times.

 

  Who do you chose? Well the Leafs tried Ron Wilson who lived in town, road the subway to and from the Garden almost every day, loved by his players, they say Dan Bylsma is facing a mountain of a task replacing Wilson as coach of the USA Olympic team because of the love and respect that follows him

  Yet he lost. He lost and the choice of Wilson as coach ended up forcing a regime change when it failed.

  So they chose the prick. The prick whose players hate him at times but who wins. He won a hard fought Stanley Cup with the Ducks with the nasty gritty likes of Niedermayer and his little brother and Pronger and a bunch of hungry kids who played hard out of fear and love of the game. Eventually his act grew old, the players quit listening to his bitching and he was asked to move on and Bruce Boudreau took over. Carlyle became coach of the Leafs.

  The Leafs have been a laughing stock, he put a chip on their shoulder, they fought him, they fought everyone, hell they had more fights than any team in the game, double or better 15 of them! And for the first time in God knows how long the Leafs are relevant. It is not a coincidence that this happened when he became coach.

  And they are built around their coach. Soft whiny Grabovski was shown the door, so was Macarthur, replaced by gritty winning Dave Bolland and David Clarkson brings his nastiness and goal scoring ability to the Leaf nation.

  Give me a Carlyle and I will give you a team that will win. Am I guaranteeing a cup? No, too many variables but this is a team toughness club, you leave bruised and battered after playing them. I am almost drooling over their battles with the Senators this season. Carlyle will have about a five year window before the team quits listening but I love this kind of coach. Give me a jerk over a lets hold hands and sing Kumbaya My lord coach any day of the week.

  Oh and my final thought on the subject is I would not want any of the players, not a single one who bitch about Carlyle to the press. It says more about them as whiny losers than it does about Carlyle.

Edited October 8, 2013 by yave1964