The Elephant in the Room: #28

[murraycraven]

This is all hypothetical and nothing more than something that is always in the back of my head:  It is Giroux.

 

We all complain about the terrible deals that Homer gives out like Bill Cosby gives out puddin' pops.   The one that will certainly cripple this franchise for the next 8 years is C Giroux.  Before everyone get their panties in a bunch I am solely basing this on a "what if" scenario.  

 

What if Grioux has hit his ceiling?  The once "best player in the world" never gets close to playing at that level again.  To say that Giroux is one of the best players n the NHL is a bit far-fetched IMO.  He is not in the same class as Crosby, Malkin, et al...  I would put him in the secondary class of players right now and I hope he turns into the player we all expected him to be.

 

Based on the past two games I am hoping he is still hurt b/c he has played like utter garbage.   This Team is built around Giroux and for this Team to be successful #28 needs to play like the franchise player he was signed to be...   So, the questions remains is Giroux going to live up to the 8 yr, 64M deal he signed?

 

[doom88]

Nope. He has a lot of the skills, but is inconsistent, needs good linemates to succeed himself, and is relatively easy to throw off his game (read: let's frustration get to him). I think I've been consistent with my opinion, as he hasn't shown me a reason to update it.

He might also be a bit gun shy after the concussion issue.

[murraycraven]

@doom88...

 

G is my favorite Flyer but was just posing the question to the board. 

 

The point about being easy to throw of his game - you are dead on.  I think he gets frustrated too easy and that will correct itself in time with maturity.    

[doom88]

@doom88...

G is my favorite Flyer but was just posing the question to the board.

The point about being easy to throw of his game - you are dead on. I think he gets frustrated too easy and that will correct itself in time with maturity.

We have been saying that for 2 years.

Rinaldo is my favorite Flyer. He shows up every shift and gives all he's got. Something I wish the skill guys would do more of.

[brelic]

G is fine. He might not have played well in the opening 2 games, but to question everything about him (worth his salary, bad C, hit his ceiling), c'mon! 

 

I know you're just putting it out there for discussion, but if there is one deal that Homer gave out where the player really deserves it, it's Giroux's. He's a franchise player. I mean, he *did* put up 47pts in 48 games last year, and the guy has been growing consistently the last 3 years. Considering the lockout, and his first year as captain, I'd say he did well.

 

The elephant in the room is the one everyone sees and everyone knows has to go - Laviolette. I guess the hyena lurking behind the elephant is Homer. The zookeeper has to decide whether or not he's ok with the hyena eating the elephant, or if he just sends both of them to a new zoo before the hyena does more damage.

 

Wow, I think I took the zoo analogy too far!

[brelic]

We have been saying that for 2 years.

Rinaldo is my favorite Flyer. He shows up every shift and gives all he's got. Something I wish the skill guys would do more of.

 

Love Rinaldo. Hard working Flyer who makes an impact when he's out there... too bad Laviolette only gave him 5:15 of ice time last night. Half of his ice time from game 1. 

 

Interesting that Schenn had more ice time than only Rosehill, Rinaldo, and Hall.

[Mad Dog]

For the second straight year, he hasn't been himself.  I have tons of confidence in him and I am not worried to the point where I start questioning whether there is something wrong with his skill set.  But something is just not there.  It's evident.  What it is - I have no clue.  He needs to find his game.  The sooner he does it, the better.

[murraycraven]

Guys, let me reinforce that I am not really questioning his C or his talent... it was something that I thought about while watching him last night during the game.  Just a topic of discussion that is all...

[pilldoc]

.  But something is just not there.  It's evident.  What it is - I have no clue.  He needs to find his game.  The sooner he does it, the better.

Could it still all be stemming from the injury he recieved over in Europe during the lockout?  I agree...something is not quite right with him or with this team...

[brelic]

Guys, let me reinforce that I am not really questioning his C or his talent... it was something that I thought about while watching him last night during the game.  Just a topic of discussion that is all...

 

I know

 

But as Flyers fans, we're impatient, and the organization rewards our impatience with ... impatience. 

 

Regardless of whether you were a fan of the Richards/Carter deal, it was something that almost no other organization would do. We had 20 years combined committed to those two players, and just like that, they were dealt away on the same day. Franchise-altering moves. 

 

Again, how can you build stability and continuity when you run an unstable organization?

[murraycraven]

I know

 

But as Flyers fans, we're impatient, and the organization rewards our impatience with ... impatience. 

 

Regardless of whether you were a fan of the Richards/Carter deal, it was something that almost no other organization would do. We had 20 years combined committed to those two players, and just like that, they were dealt away on the same day. Franchise-altering moves. 

 

Again, how can you build stability and continuity when you run an unstable organization?

 

 

Well said Brel!!

[pilldoc]

Guys, let me reinforce that I am not really questioning his C or his talent... it was something that I thought about while watching him last night during the game.  Just a topic of discussion that is all...

I'm not taking it that way at all......he definitely has the talent......however I think alot of us are sensing that something is just not quite right.  I am by no means panicking at the early 0-2 start...but when you add up all the years we as group have been watching hockey and this team..we witnessing someting that to most of us ..is that gut instict that something appears to be out of kilter.......

[pilldoc]

 

 

1 ) But as Flyers fans, we're impatient, and the organization rewards our impatience with ... impatience. 

 

 

2)  Again, how can you build stability and continuity when you run an unstable organization?

Point #1 ----> Absolutely correct.  We are impatient because we see the dumb moves this organization has made in regards to salaries/contracts / under/over valuing players / making trades/moves ..well just because...... we all want a winner to see what has happen to this franchise is frustrating to most of us.  I was only 6 yrs old the last time the Cup was raised in Philly.....way to long ago.  This leads into Point #2

 

Point #2 -----> IMO the fundamental flaw in this organization.  Perfect example. Last year.  All in trying to get Weber / Pariese / Suter with no back-up plan.  Pronger's injury regretably you cannot forsee, however, IMO this team had/has no real back-up plan in place.  I am keeping my fingers crossed with Morin and Haag that they are not shipped off.

[brelic]

Well said Brel!!

 

Over the last 7 seasons (2006-2013), we've had 7 captains. Isn't that insane? What other organization has this much instability?

 

Giroux

Pronger

Richards

Smith

Forsberg

Hatcher

Primeau

 

 

Meanwhile, the Red Wings have had THREE different captains since 1986.

 

Yzerman

Lidstrom

Zetterberg

[murraycraven]

Over the last 7 seasons (2006-2013), we've had 7 captains. Isn't that insane? What other organization has this much instability?

Giroux

Pronger

Richards

Smith

Forsberg

Hatcher

Primeau

Meanwhile, the Red Wings have had THREE different captains since 1986.

Yzerman

Lidstrom

Zetterberg

That is ridiculous when you think about it...

[radoran]

I think he's pretty much a 25/80 player. Whether you think a 25/80 player is worth $8.25M a year is the question.

 

Next year his cap hit is less than half a million less than Crosby. More than Eric Staal, Getzlaf, Weber, Nash, Datsyuk, Suter, Parise, Stamkos...

 

His actual salary will be $10 million. The same as Alex Ovechkin and Pavel Datsyuk. More than Malkin, E. Staal, Perry, Getzlaf.

 

That's the comparison we have to make here.

 

That is ridiculous when you think about it...

 

It was ridiculous watching it happen.

[brelic]

Point #1 ----> Absolutely correct.  We are impatient because we see the dumb moves this organization has made in regards to salaries/contracts / under/over valuing players / making trades/moves ..well just because...... we all want a winner to see what has happen to this franchise is frustrating to most of us.  I was only 6 yrs old the last time the Cup was raised in Philly.....way to long ago.  This leads into Point #2

 

Point #2 -----> IMO the fundamental flaw in this organization.  Perfect example. Last year.  All in trying to get Weber / Pariese / Suter with no back-up plan.  Pronger's injury regretably you cannot forsee, however, IMO this team had/has no real back-up plan in place.  I am keeping my fingers crossed with Morin and Haag that they are not shipped off.

 

 

To point #2, I would add this offseason too.

 

You've got the young guys that you're brining along and expect them to take a step (like Coots, Schenn, and possibly Laughton), but then you sign VL because you're impatient.

 

You have Gus as an up and coming PMD, homegrown, and young. But you sign Streit because you're impatient.

 

You have the "most athletic goaltender" you've ever seen, but you sign an aging goaltender to 9 years because you're impatient. 

 

In all of these cases, it demonstrates impatience and not trusting your own players. And in all cases the team overcommitted.

 

The Flyers are becoming a caricature of themselves.

[murraycraven]

@ Rad... ain't that the truth!  

[pilldoc]

Over the last 7 seasons (2006-2013), we've had 7 captains. Isn't that insane? What other organization has this much instability?

 

Giroux

Pronger

Richards

Smith

Forsberg

Hatcher

Primeau

 

 

Meanwhile, the Red Wings have had THREE different captains since 1986.

 

Yzerman

Lidstrom

Zetterberg

Good point...but in all fairness Forsberg / Pronger / Hatcher / Primeau all became injured and their respective careers essentially ended in Philly.

Your other "young" Captain..aka Richards was shipped out along with his drinking/party partner for reasons that are still totally unclear. (Disruption in locker room?)

 

However...your point is well taken.

Edited October 6, 2013 by pilldoc

[pilldoc]

To point #2, I would add this offseason too.

 

You've got the young guys that you're brining along and expect them to take a step (like Coots, Schenn, and possibly Laughton), but then you sign VL because you're impatient.

 

You have Gus as an up and coming PMD, homegrown, and young. But you sign Streit because you're impatient.

 

You have the "most athletic goaltender" you've ever seen, but you sign an aging goaltender to 9 years because you're impatient. 

 

In all of these cases, it demonstrates impatience and not trusting your own players. And in all cases the team overcommitted.

 

The Flyers are becoming a caricature of themselves.

again...all excellant points.  Which leads the age old question....Why the HELL DOES THIS TEAM NOT PLAY YOUNGER PLAYERS!

In the world of Star Wars....Impatience leads to fear.....fear leads to doubt.......doubt leads to more impatience...which leads to hate...which leads to the Dark Side.  Follow the Dark Side and forever will it become your destiny.   Now we will all get a chuckle out that statement I just typed.  But think about it.  This is a vicisous cycle that has played itself out going all the way back to the days of Hitch and the mutiny of the players against Barber. 

 

This is one of the most impatient franchise in sports  and we the fans are finally sick of it.......  I love Snider's passion to wanting to win. But enough is enough.....  Is he seriously afraid of losing money if the Flyers suck for a 1 or 2 while the young kids gain experience?

[murraycraven]

again...all excellant points.  Which leads the age old question....Why the HELL DOES THIS TEAM NOT PLAY YOUNGER PLAYERS!

In the world of Star Wars....Impatience leads to fear.....fear leads to doubt.......doubt leads to more impatience...which leads to hate...which leads to the Dark Side.  Follow the Dark Side and forever will it become your destiny.   Now we will all get a chuckle out that statement I just typed.  But think about it.  This is a vicisous cycle that has played itself out going all the way back to the days of Hitch and the mutiny of the players against Barber. 

 

This is one of the most impatient franchise in sports  and we the fans are finally sick of it.......  I love Snider's passion to wanting to win. But enough is enough.....  Is he seriously afraid of losing money if the Flyers suck for a 1 or 2 while the young kids gain experience?

 

 

LOL!  Classic Doc... yet very true...

[radoran]

@ Rad... ain't that the truth!  

 

Just look at the "logic" behind each of the moves.

 

Primeau - was essentially traded for to replace Lindros. Putting the C on him was the final part of that replacement. Had a good playoff run, lost the C due to injury.

 

Hatcher - injured when he got it, very much playing out the string. A great leader elsewhere who simply wasn't going to have the time to do it in Philly.

 

Forsberg - Again, IMO, an attempt to vanquish the Lindros Ghost. "Put the C on your best player" even if he had never been captain of a team at any level. Injured when he got it, "Footpa" never took off in Philly. Traded to Nashville.

 

Smith - With former captains Briere and Timonen on the roster and signed long term, management picks the elderly journeyman signed on a one-year deal. He leaves after the season. 

 

Richards - Was "captain in waiting" before he had played an NHL game. "The Next Bobby Clarke." Thrust into the role with, again, two former captains on the roster and a third veteran captain who had never played second fiddle to anyone except Scott Neidermeyer added later to "help." Signed to a 12-year deal. Makes it to the Cup Final, at which point there are rumors about a vet/youth split in the locker room. And, yes, partying and whatever. Traded to Los Angeles before his NMC took effect.

 

Pronger - Never having played second fiddle to anyone but Scott Neidermeyer, is given the C and a long term 35+ contract to go with it. Gets injured and career ends.

 

Giroux - The new, new face of the franchise. Thrust into a position of responsibility and team misses playoffs for first time in six years.

 

I didn't understand then and don't understand now most of these decisions. Giroux blossomed under the cover provided by more experienced leaders like Timonen and Briere. I do think that failing to put Kimmo in instead of Smith was a fatal mistake for the team. Said so then. Timonen was the perfect bridge guy to Richards, who could take the reins in his late 20s and ride as captain for a deade.

 

But since Crosby and Toews got the C early, the Flyers, IMO, felt that they had to give it to their younger player as well. They are a knee-jerk reactionary group that allows their decisions to be coloured and shaped by the moves of those around them.

 

When I look at Chicago, Pittsburgh, Boston and Detroit, that's not how I see those franchises being run,

 

 

This is one of the most impatient franchise in sports  and we the fans are finally sick of it.......  I love Snider's passion to wanting to win. But enough is enough.....  Is he seriously afraid of losing money if the Flyers suck for a 1 or 2 while the young kids gain experience?

 

He's seriously afraid of not seeing another Cup win.

[pilldoc]

Just look at the "logic" behind each of the moves.

 

Primeau - was essentially traded for to replace Lindros. Putting the C on him was the final part of that replacement. Had a good playoff run, lost the C due to injury.

 

Hatcher - injured when he got it, very much playing out the string. A great leader elsewhere who simply wasn't going to have the time to do it in Philly.

 

Forsberg - Again, IMO, an attempt to vanquish the Lindros Ghost. "Put the C on your best player" even if he had never been captain of a team at any level. Injured when he got it, "Footpa" never took off in Philly. Traded to Nashville.

 

Smith - With former captains Briere and Timonen on the roster and signed long term, management picks the elderly journeyman signed on a one-year deal. He leaves after the season. 

 

Richards - Was "captain in waiting" before he had played an NHL game. "The Next Bobby Clarke." Thrust into the role with, again, two former captains on the roster and a third veteran captain who had never played second fiddle to anyone except Scott Neidermeyer added later to "help." Signed to a 12-year deal. Makes it to the Cup Final, at which point there are rumors about a vet/youth split in the locker room. And, yes, partying and whatever. Traded to Los Angeles before his NMC took effect.

 

Pronger - Never having played second fiddle to anyone but Scott Neidermeyer, is given the C and a long term 35+ contract to go with it. Gets injured and career ends.

 

Giroux - The new, new face of the franchise. Thrust into a position of responsibility and team misses playoffs for first time in six years.

 

I didn't understand then and don't understand now most of these decisions. Giroux blossomed under the cover provided by more experienced leaders like Timonen and Briere. I do think that failing to put Kimmo in instead of Smith was a fatal mistake for the team. Said so then. Timonen was the perfect bridge guy to Richards, who could take the reins in his late 20s and ride as captain for a deade.

 

But since Crosby and Toews got the C early, the Flyers, IMO, felt that they had to give it to their younger player as well. They are a knee-jerk reactionary group that allows their decisions to be coloured and shaped by the moves of those around them.

 

When I look at Chicago, Pittsburgh, Boston and Detroit, that's not how I see those franchises being run,

 

 

 

He's seriously afraid of not seeing another Cup win.

Excellant post Rad!  I really mean it....  You put into words the transistion of "Captains" for this franchise during the past 10 years.  I agree 110%.  And yes....I believe you are right...Snider is afraid of not seeing another Cup.

 

Your statement at the end is another one regarding the epitome of this franchise.

 

"They are a knee-jerk reactionary group that allows their decisions to be coloured and shaped by the moves of those around them."

[brelic]

Good point...but in all fairness Forsberg / Pronger / Hatcher / Primeau all became injured and their respective careers essentially ended in Philly.

Your other "young" Captain..aka Richards was shipped out along with his drinking/party partner for reasons that are still totally unclear. (Disruption in locker room?)

 

However...your point is well taken.

 

Yes, good point. There were mitigating factors in most of those cases. Rad's summary also shows that there were some bad choices that could have avoided the instability that followed those choices.

 

Any way you slice it, though, this franchise is unstable.

 

7 captains in 7 years.

 

10 goaltenders in 7 years.

 

4 guys from the 2010 SCF (Coburn, Timonen, Hartnell, Giroux) roster still on the team (6 if you include Pronger and now Emery's second Flyers stint)

 

There is no plan.

[pilldoc]

Yes, good point. There were mitigating factors in most of those cases. Rad's summary also shows that there were some bad choices that could have avoided the instability that followed those choices.

 

Any way you slice it, though, this franchise is unstable.

 

7 captains in 7 years.

 

10 goaltenders in 7 years.

 

4 guys from the 2010 SCF (Coburn, Timonen, Hartnell, Giroux) roster still on the team (6 if you include Pronger and now Emery's second Flyers stint)

 

There is no plan.

Totally agree.  @radoran just put into words what I was thinking.  Bottom line, I agree..there is no plan.  If this would be a Stock/Bond or mutal fund...and there was no financial plan on place...would you invest in that Fund?  NO...of course not...yet here we are fans of this franchise and we invest our time and energy into an organization that is essentially rudderless in the middle of the ocean know as the NHL.  Some may disagree with me...but it is time for Lavy and Homer to go on their merryway and for this oraganization get some fresh blood in here to help redirect them. Where this will come from ...I don't have a clue.  Hexy may be a good start since he has been out of the organization for a bit while in LA.