Flyer Youth

[ItsDaBill]

While it is exciting to have several younger forwards with potential upside, when are we going to start seeing this upside? With the exception of Matt Read who has been playing well, when are Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier going to start playing with some consistency? Each have shown signs of what could be but none of them have established themselves as legit top six forwards, at least in my opinion. Of the three I like the potential of Schenn and Couturier the most... I think Simmonds is just about what you are going to see from him. He has the ability to play physical and get some dirty goals but overall I think he possessed the least upside. So, the question becomes how does Homer handle all of them? I know they were given extensions but its not Flyer style to be that patient and let all develop at their own pace.

[murraycraven]

While it is exciting to have several younger forwards with potential upside, when are we going to start seeing this upside? With the exception of Matt Read who has been playing well, when are Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier going to start playing with some consistency? Each have shown signs of what could be but none of them have established themselves as legit top six forwards, at least in my opinion. Of the three I like the potential of Schenn and Couturier the most... I think Simmonds is just about what you are going to see from him. He has the ability to play physical and get some dirty goals but overall I think he possessed the least upside. So, the question becomes how does Homer handle all of them? I know they were given extensions but its not Flyer style to be that patient and let all develop at their own pace.

 

 

Good post and welcome...

 

I think Simmonds is what you are going to see... tough and gritty player but has been known to go on cold streaks.  As long as he is in front of the net and screening players he will get his goals.  

 

Schenn and Cooter are still both very young.  Cooter is a very good defensive player and I hope he can translate his Jr scoring touch into the NHL.   If he is a 3rd line defensive forward that can battle for the Selke I am fine with it.  Schenn is just wildly inconsistent as you said.   I expect him to start getting more consistent through this season and still think he can be a very good player. 

 

As they say... patience is a virtue and Homer needs to be patient w/ these players.   Truth be told I think Cooter has actually been skating better lately - something I never thougt I would say

[hf101]

@ItsDaBill

 

Welcome!

 

A good and tough first post to answer.  I do think it is much too soon to give up on any of them  The quality of what we see on the ice is often due to a particular coaching system in place.  Good coaches can consistently get the most out of average players.  I think every game thus far we are seeing improvements on the ice since Berube has been coach.  If we continue to see progress, then the players themselves will also show growth. And that should be measurable.

 

I don't think either Couturier or either of the Schenns will be moved anytime soon, especially since it appears Laviolette's system had most of the blame.

[caluso]

While it is exciting to have several younger forwards with potential upside, when are we going to start seeing this upside? With the exception of Matt Read who has been playing well, when are Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier going to start playing with some consistency? Each have shown signs of what could be but none of them have established themselves as legit top six forwards, at least in my opinion. Of the three I like the potential of Schenn and Couturier the most... I think Simmonds is just about what you are going to see from him. He has the ability to play physical and get some dirty goals but overall I think he possessed the least upside. So, the question becomes how does Homer handle all of them? I know they were given extensions but its not Flyer style to be that patient and let all develop at their own pace.

i think that we over-value young players in philly which leads to inevitable frustration.

 

when people post that "coots" is "going to develop because he's only 20," i find that absurd. there are dozens of players in the nhl who are younger than "coots"- and many of them are performing at a higher level, and have more upside. "coots" isn't going to get faster or tougher.

 

and then there's schenn - mr inconsistent.

[ItsDaBill]

Good post and welcome...

 

I think Simmonds is what you are going to see... tough and gritty player but has been known to go on cold streaks.  As long as he is in front of the net and screening players he will get his goals.  

 

Schenn and Cooter are still both very young.  Cooter is a very good defensive player and I hope he can translate his Jr scoring touch into the NHL.   If he is a 3rd line defensive forward that can battle for the Selke I am fine with it.  Schenn is just wildly inconsistent as you said.   I expect him to start getting more consistent through this season and still think he can be a very good player. 

 

As they say... patience is a virtue and Homer needs to be patient w/ these players.   Truth be told I think Cooter has actually been skating better lately - something I never thougt I would say

Thanks for the welcome, its nice to have Flyers discussion with other educated fans.

 

It sounds like we agree on most points regarding the young forwards. Honestly, the strength of their defense is more encouraging to me than the offensive side... at least as it relates to their potential. Defense tends to be the harder skill to master but both Couturier and Schenn do well in this area, Couturier the stronger of the two. Hopefully Giroux will start to pick up his game offensively and with that others will follow. Right now its tough to watch at times but there is marked improvement since Barube took over. Of the younger forwards, Simmonds would be expendable to me if they needed to shop for a scoring forward or strengthen the defense further. I like what can bring to the team but in the end his is not dominant even at his best and tends to disappear far too often.

[ItsDaBill]

i think that we over-value young players in philly which leads to inevitable frustration.

 

when people post that "coots" is "going to develop because he's only 20," i find that absurd. there are dozens of players in the nhl who are younger than "coots"- and many of them are performing at a higher level, and have more upside. "coots" isn't going to get faster or tougher.

 

and then there's schenn - mr inconsistent.

I agree and disagree with your points. I think you are correct when you say we tend to over value young talent in the Flyers system... and maybe that isnt really accurate... I think its more we expect them to reach full potential far sooner than is realistic. A forward who is only 20 years old will certainly develop as he gains more experience and fills out his body with maturity and muscle. A guy like Couturier came into the league under weight but has the frame add another 15 pounds of muscle and become a more physical forward. So, I guess thats where I disagree... he may not get faster (which isnt a problem anyway) but he may very well become a tougher forward.

 

Schenn frustrates me the most... I actually think he has the most upside but as you said has been extremely inconsistent. Fingers crossed that Barube over the rest of the season can work with him and get him performing at a higher level night in and night out.

[murraycraven]

pace.

i think that we over-value young players in philly which leads to inevitable frustration.

 

 

I think it is more like we "over-expect" what is normal in the development of a young player.  Patience, patience, patience...

[aziz]

With the exception of Matt Read who has been playing well, when are Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier going to start playing with some consistency?

 

i think the thing you need to keep in mind is:

 

matt read:  27

brayden schenn:  22

sean couturier:  20

 

i left simmonds out, because he's a second line power forward.  no one really projected him to be much more than a 50-60 point guy, and that's pretty much where he is now.

 

the others, an extra 5 years is the difference between consistency and immaturity.  they'll need time.  read certainly did.

[aziz]

Schenn frustrates me the most... I actually think he has the most upside but as you said has been extremely inconsistent.

 

tied for team point scoring lead.  night in night out is a problem, but he's making his presence felt.  honestly, the fact that he is playing more consistently than giroux should be of more concern right now than schenn himself.

[murraycraven]

they'll need time. read certainly did.

 

 

I look at Read differently... he was older than most players that came out of Jrs b/c he played college hockey.  He was nearly/or 25 when he came into the league... 

[ItsDaBill]

i think the thing you need to keep in mind is:

 

matt read:  27

brayden schenn:  22

sean couturier:  20

 

i left simmonds out, because he's a second line power forward.  no one really projected him to be much more than a 50-60 point guy, and that's pretty much where he is now.

 

the others, an extra 5 years is the difference between consistency and immaturity.  they'll need time.  read certainly did.

Thats a great point about Read and the age difference. I tend to forget he is 27 and that certainly helps with consistency.

[aziz]

I look at Read differently... he was older than most players that came out of Jrs b/c he played college hockey.  He was nearly/or 25 when he came into the league... 

 

which tells me that his game wasn't of interest to professional teams until then.  he needed the extra time to get himself to a point where he could play the game professionally.  and i'm not buying the "he wanted an education first" thing.  no one turns away from a few years of professional hockey income for an exercise science degree from bemidji state.  wtf is exercise science??

 

it was the mature and stabilized 25 yearold matt read that had NHL teams interested, not the 20 year old one.

[ItsDaBill]

tied for team point scoring lead.  night in night out is a problem, but he's making his presence felt.  honestly, the fact that he is playing more consistently than giroux should be of more concern right now than schenn himself.

Another very good point to make regarding Giroux. He has been a disappointment so far but Im confident he will get it going soon. He just needs a goal and things will start to move for him. He is in the classic trying to hard place right now and the game isnt coming to him. Once he gets a goal and some of that pressure is lifted he will be better.

 

Given this teams extreme lack of scoring so far (Lacavalier not included) Schenns tie for point total means very little to me. My eyes tell me he still isnt playing on a level that is opening eyes.

 

On a positive note... because I hate to only be negative... Mason has looked great so far. Its still early but he has played very well and kept the Flyers in a lot of games. If he can continue to play well they should make the playoffs (as Giroux stupidly proclaimed). You can see the team starting to click a little more each game since Barube took over and its just a matter of time until they show us some good hockey.

[murraycraven]

wtf is exercise science??

 

I beleive it is kinesiology... the science dealing with the interrelationship of the physiological processes and anatomy of the human body with respect to movement...

 

AKA:  Gym Teacher, Trainer, Fitness Intructor...

[jackhole]

I beleive it is kinesiology... the science dealing with the interrelationship of the physiological processes and anatomy of the human body with respect to movement...

AKA: Gym Teacher, Trainer, Fitness Intructor...

Yes, its that (not really gym teacher) but a lot more as well. I have an 'exercise science' degree and there are as many jobs in the medical field as well. Personally I worked with heart patients pre and post 'event' rehab as well as some PT. Its really a broad based program which can be used in many ways, probably more since I've left the field. A lot of athletes tend to study Ex Phys because that is your major focus at that point in life and you will learn the science and chemistry which would greatly enhance any athletic program. It is a hard curriculum full of heavy science courses (plus students are their own guinea pigs in lab max exercise tests). If Read has and Ex Phys degree, he is a smart man, and will work after hockey (if he chooses).

[flyercanuck]

@ItsDaBill

 

 Welcome to the board. I can only hope Holmgren is gone before any of the players you mentioned.

 

@caluso

 

 

when people post that "coots" is "going to develop because he's only 20," i find that absurd. there are dozens of players in the nhl who are younger than "coots"- and many of them are performing at a higher level, and have more upside. "coots" isn't going to get faster or tougher.

 

 

 Yes there are dozens. There are also hundreds who weren't even IN the NHL at his age...in other words got faster, tougher...better... after the age of 20.

[brelic]

caluso, on 28 Oct 2013 - 3:52 PM, said:

and then there's schenn - mr inconsistent.

Actually, Schenn has been one of the most consistent Flyers in the 10 games this season. He certainly seems to be making an important jump from last year.

6 points in 10 games, no more than 1 game streak without a point. Shots on goal in 8 of 10 games, playing around 17-18 minutes per game.

The biggest area for improvement would be the faceoff circle. But the other aspects of his game have improved.

He just turned 22, and we're seeing progress. That's exactly what we want to see.

EDIT: I will add that JVR is a PPG player this year (5 goals, 6 assists in 10 games) playing on the top line. ANd he drives the net. And he's making smart plays. I've watched a few Leafs games and this is not the Philly JVR.

He's 24, and showing signs of why he was 2nd overall. We gave up on him too early. Now, I'm not saying the trade was a bad one (though so far, it seems to be), but we were labeling him a bust at 21 and 22.

Give Schenn and Coots AT LEAST until they're 24 before labeling as a bust or disappointment. The truth is that's just how long it takes most players to develop. These guys are not Crosby or Tavares or Stamkos. They need many years of development.

It will come... we just need to be patient.

[murraycraven]

It will come... we just need to be patient.

 

THIS!    Patience, patience, patience....

[fanaticV3.0]

While it is exciting to have several younger forwards with potential upside, when are we going to start seeing this upside? With the exception of Matt Read who has been playing well, when are Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier going to start playing with some consistency? Each have shown signs of what could be but none of them have established themselves as legit top six forwards, at least in my opinion. Of the three I like the potential of Schenn and Couturier the most... I think Simmonds is just about what you are going to see from him. He has the ability to play physical and get some dirty goals but overall I think he possessed the least upside. So, the question becomes how does Homer handle all of them? I know they were given extensions but its not Flyer style to be that patient and let all develop at their own pace.

 

Schenn has been leading or tied for the team lead in points most of this young season. I hear what you are saying about the youth stepping up and if you look at the last several seasons (including the one with the last place finish several years back) going young hasn't exactly panned out, but of all the guys to call out right now, Schenn makes the least sense.

 

One guy who does need to show some growth this year is Couturier.

[ItsDaBill]

Schenn has been leading or tied for the team lead in points most of this young season. I hear what you are saying about the youth stepping up and if you look at the last several seasons (including the one with the last place finish several years back) going young hasn't exactly panned out, but of all the guys to call out right now, Schenn makes the least sense.

 

One guy who does need to show some growth this year is Couturier.

As I said to another poster, the fact that Schenn is tied for the team lead in points is somewhat irrelevant to me, at least at this point in time. The significant lack of scoring overall from the team kind of skews his team lead... in my opinion. I hear what you are saying though, Schenn is at least showing some production whereas Courturier has been much quieter. Hopefully a full season will help them with consistency and allow the coaching staff to dig in on skill development. The condensed season last year was more of a mad dash and I doubt very good for any sort of significant development.

 

Good test tonight with the Ducks. I will be watching to see who steps up to challenge Getzlaf and Perry. This team really needs Giroux to get it going and maybe a good test like Anaheim is something that will be good for him. I saw Mason gets the start again, I like that Barube is sticking with him... he has played much better than Emery in the early season and deserves a real chance to show what he can do.

[fanaticV3.0]

As I said to another poster, the fact that Schenn is tied for the team lead in points is somewhat irrelevant to me, at least at this point in time. The significant lack of scoring overall from the team kind of skews his team lead... in my opinion. I hear what you are saying though, Schenn is at least showing some production whereas Courturier has been much quieter. Hopefully a full season will help them with consistency and allow the coaching staff to dig in on skill development. The condensed season last year was more of a mad dash and I doubt very good for any sort of significant development.

 

Good test tonight with the Ducks. I will be watching to see who steps up to challenge Getzlaf and Perry. This team really needs Giroux to get it going and maybe a good test like Anaheim is something that will be good for him. I saw Mason gets the start again, I like that Barube is sticking with him... he has played much better than Emery in the early season and deserves a real chance to show what he can do.

 

Bad teams can still have good/productive players. The team blows right now, but if anything can be taken away from it, he's showing something during some of their worst times. I would like to think if the rest of the players around him started playing better, he would too.

 

Couturier scares me. I know he's very young, but he also shows very little.

[fanaticV3.0]

As I said to another poster, the fact that Schenn is tied for the team lead in points is somewhat irrelevant to me, at least at this point in time. The significant lack of scoring overall from the team kind of skews his team lead... in my opinion. I hear what you are saying though, Schenn is at least showing some production whereas Courturier has been much quieter. Hopefully a full season will help them with consistency and allow the coaching staff to dig in on skill development. The condensed season last year was more of a mad dash and I doubt very good for any sort of significant development.

 

Good test tonight with the Ducks. I will be watching to see who steps up to challenge Getzlaf and Perry. This team really needs Giroux to get it going and maybe a good test like Anaheim is something that will be good for him. I saw Mason gets the start again, I like that Barube is sticking with him... he has played much better than Emery in the early season and deserves a real chance to show what he can do.

 

Bad teams can still have good/productive players. The team blows right now, but if anything can be taken away from it, he's showing something during some of their worst times. I would like to think if the rest of the players around him started playing better, he would too.

 

Couturier scares me. I know he's very young, but he also shows very little.

[aziz]

As I said to another poster, the fact that Schenn is tied for the team lead in points is somewhat irrelevant to me, at least at this point in time. The significant lack of scoring overall from the team kind of skews his team lead... in my opinion.

That is a fair point, but...6 points in 10 is still a ~50 point pace, WHILE the rest of the team can't score. I would expect point pace to go up as other players start finding their game. And, hey, I'll take 50 points from a third year 22 year old.

[Jam1986]

Well on defensive you usually takes longer and as Chase says by 26 you know what you got with a d/man? Up front you need another scorer. If you say trade G who would be the slick center? I think we need to be like Phoenix that's how a team plays that might not have the talent but wins!

[Vanflyer]

Good coaches can consistently get the most out of average players.

 

Thats why JVR is a ppg player and a +4. :-P