Enough with the "not good enough" regurg

[SpikeDDS]

I don't know about you guys, and I realize that we are missing two starting centers plus a winger who can play center (Franzen), but I have had enough of "not good enough" and "we need to be better." DUH!! Not only are these comments so obvious and true, but they offer ZERO explanation for both why you lose games and offer NOTHING as far as solution to this problem that continues to plague this team.

I am also exhausted by "we stopped skating," although at least that identifies a problem and leads to the obvious suggestion that we skate for 60 minutes! GENIUS!

But it goes without saying that players being paid what they are should be doing that pretty consistently. But we DON'T! We are as consistent with "skating" as Jimmy Howard has been in goal this season--NOT! And this had not just been this season either. The past 3 seasons, this has been a consistent excuse for why we lose games.

I HAVE to believe one of two things: either our players are not as good as we thought they were, or else they aren't giving effort. I personally think it is the latter.

Thank goodness for the likes of Nyquist and Tatar who at least demonstrate obvious effort. But they have been fighting for jobs and then now for ice time. And they deserve to get it. With the exception of Z, WHERE WERE THE REST OF YOU?

And since we just had it out in that previous thread, I'll keep this short: It is unfortunate that Jimmy Howard is going to Sochi. It would have been better for him to work with Bedard to get his head and his game right. He's got the goods at times, but every other game is "not good enough," and he "needs to be better." <BARF!!>

Mike Babcock, this is partly on you! I have heard that you are one of the tougher coaches to play for and that you push your players harder than most. I understand your aversion to negative reinforcement to a degree, but at some point sitting guys who are "not good enough" is what a coach is supposed to do. There comes a point when a boot in the backside is THE best move. It's not about displaying frustration. I agree that that alone is not productive. But there IS motivation derived from negative reinforcement. It is NOT all about frustration. Some of this inconsistent effort is a result of your consistent lack of negative reinforcement. It is time to kick some butts before you run out of time to get the guys in gear for the postseason.

I dunno if I feel "better" or not after that, but I had to say it. I wish I had all of the answers. I guess this was just "not good enough." I "need to get better and better every day." ENOUGH!!

<BARF!>

[yave1964]

@SpikeDDS

I didnt watch the game yet, i DVR'd it and will see if i can stomach it later.

 This is a hideous stretch of games against the three california clubs who are lights out at home. Thank god we only go out there once this year. I think somehow 3 points against the Kings and Ducks is a must. Someone has to just step it up and get it done.

[WingNut722]

@SpikeDDS

 

Agreed!  I used to read all the game recaps to find out the players thoughts on the game; win or loss.  But I'm just sick of reading that same garbage over and over again.  

 

"We weren't good enough..."  Of course you weren't good enough.  THAT'S WHY YOU LOST!!!!!!!!  The reporter knows that.  He just asked you why you weren't good enough to beat the Sharks.  And you respond with his exact same words!  

 

"We stopped skating..."  Why?  The game is 60 minutes long.  It has been for years.  They didn't extend the clock on you suddenly, did they?  Tired today?  Rather be out relaxing by the pool?  Had too much fun at that bar in Phoenix?  Wanna get back to that cute little Arizona State senior with the teddy bear collection?  

 

These are guys who have BEEN TO THE TOP!  Cleary, Samuelsson, Kronwall, Bertuzzi, Abdelkader....they all have won the Stanley Cup for the Red Wings.  I don't understand why they think a half-baked effort will suffice.  Alfredsson comes over from his 17 year career in Ottawa because he perceived Detroit was the best opportunity for him to win a Cup in what is likely his final season.  I wonder if he's beginning to regret it.  Detroit may be above Ottawa in the standings, but I'm sure that any top team...Boston, San Jose, Anaheim....would have made room for him if he suggested an interest.

 

No more coddling.  No more days off.  No more "rest days."  No more "optional practices."  No more cute little side trips to Arizona to take a break for a few days.  Cancel any other family holidays, and fathers' trips and mothers' bake-a-thons, and public appearances.  No more handing out donuts in the lobby of a corporate office building to thank the fans for their support.  (Keep going to the children's hospitals though)  Babcock (and Holland!) should go all high school on these guys.  Hard laps, two-a-days, and just exhaustive conditioning.  

 

This is stupid............... 

 

@yave1964  I would suggest watch the 5 minute highlight reel rather than the entire game, and save yourself the extra 2 hours.

[Haliax]

In my opinion, the team needs a change. I think you can get change by bringing in a new coach. Overly simplistic, but it is a place to start. Then you evaluate the team in off season, let go some of the players that aren't contributing, and see what comes out in next years training camp. It has been a full decade (I'd say offseason 2001) since this team has made big changes to the roster. I think a similar change, with new faces and not failed past experiments, needs to happen now. Obviously the same firepower that we acquired in that 2001 offseason isn't available now, but I'm sure there are some options. Going younger may be one of them, and in that case we should buckle in for a couple seasons of missed playoffs.

 

Long story short, I think this season is a write off. Make changes now with a 5 year plan in mind.

[jammer2]

  Sooooo...how does everyone feel about my thesis that the Wings should trade either Zetts or Dats or both. I don't think they can win the cup with the team as it is currently constructed. I don't think the kids will be ready to contribute meaningfully before the 2 stars fall out of their prime. I propose getting younger, trading one or both of the big 2 and try to get a superstar center in the fold with the windfall that ensues. I'm more and more convinced that Nyqvist, Tatar and maybe even Jurco will be stars in the future. The rest of this season should dictate the fate of Howard, if he continues down this road, buy him out and go young in net with Murasek and the other kid.

[hf101]

Granted injuries have played a role this season and Howard has been less than stellar, but I think there is also an adjustment to playing in the East vs the West, let alone East vs West games didn't happen last year and there is a learning curve building new rivalries.  It is far too early to write off this season.  

 

I wouldn't even consider firing Babcock.  

[yave1964]

  Sooooo...how does everyone feel about my thesis that the Wings should trade either Zetts or Dats or both. I don't think they can win the cup with the team as it is currently constructed. I don't think the kids will be ready to contribute meaningfully before the 2 stars fall out of their prime. I propose getting younger, trading one or both of the big 2 and try to get a superstar center in the fold with the windfall that ensues. I'm more and more convinced that Nyqvist, Tatar and maybe even Jurco will be stars in the future. The rest of this season should dictate the fate of Howard, if he continues down this road, buy him out and go young in net with Murasek and the other kid.

  I am not a fan of the idea of trading either.

  Lets go with the premise that this season is a write off, a low seed and one and done at best.

NEXT year the cap goes up plus we are going to get rid of the fat, players like Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Eaves, Tootoo, Quincey and Alfredsson are all gone, taking nearly 20 million in available cap space with them. Only Alfie and possibly Bert could be considered useful, freeing up the salary allows the Wings to go all in on two big boy UFAs that are out there, hopefully a puck moving blueliner and a sniper. If you, like I think this Is just a lost season for Weiss who tried to play through multiple groin injuries before Holland finally shut him down until post Olympics, and if he can bounce back and be a 50-60 point player he will be like another free agent add as well.

  Then when you consider the kids, players like Jurco, Jarmkrok, Pulkinnen all of whom will in al likelihood be regulars next season and guys like Sheahan and Mitch Callahan who can play solid responsible fourth line minutes right now and blueliners such as Marchenko who looks like a stud in his first North American season, Adam Almquist who is undersized but may be the best passer in the organization not named Pavel and responsible ready now 2nd or 3rd pair guys such as Sproul and Oullet I think that the pieces and parts needed to surround the two big boys are close at hand.

 

  So after this season,

 

We lose 20 million in dead weight and the cap goes up.

 

Our farm system is truly bursting at the seams with NHL ready talent.

 

 This season is a wash. A trade or two might get us to the post season but I would hate to mortgage what we have going to make it happen. Overall, I love the direction the club is moving in.

[WingNut722]

@jammer2

 

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with @yave1964 on this one too.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the foundation of this team.  Taking the two good components and keeping the failing parts will not help.  Besides, I doubt very much you'll get anyone of their same caliber in return.  If you do, it'll be one-for-one, and you'll be back where you started from.  

 

No, the problem is the Red Wings have no depth anymore (with the exception of the kids).  Bertuzzi is at the end of his career but only due to natural deterioration.  The man is still scoring goals and playing hard at his age.  He didn't fall of the wagon at all, like some of the others (Samuelsson, Cleary, Eaves).  Cleary and Eaves have not produced up to expectations for some unknown reason.  Samuelsson has not produced at all.  Injuries are one thing, and they'll always be a factor.  However Mike Babcock has had the right philosophy, in that an injured player presents an opportunity for another player to take on extra minutes and show he's worthy of the increased responsibility.  That hasn't happened yet.

 

Weiss is a different problem altogether that has been magnified by the lack of production.  If all the other players had contributed as they were expected, Weiss' issues would have been minor.  There would be a lot more patience and time for him to get his head straight.  Throughout the season I loved watching him play.  He's been in there digging and grinding.  It was anticipated that Weiss would center a line of Alfredsson and Franzen.    No, maybe Alfredsson and Weiss didn't mesh, but Franzen didn't "wake up" until right around the time Weiss started getting injured.  In fact Weiss's last point was an assist on a Franzen goal.  

 

It's there.  It's all right there.  But they have to dig deep to find it...deeper than they have before.

 

I might also have to agree with @Haliax on getting a new bench boss.  His job is to see the big picture, and it seems that he is not.  Or he does and he hasn't found a solution.  Something has to give.  In reality though, I doubt very much that Mike Babcock will need to dust off his resume at the end of this season.  As of this morning, the Wings are in the playoffs as the wildcard.  They would have to plummet in the standings, something I don't think will happen, even with this bunch.

[SpikeDDS]

@WingNut722

I think we are starting to see the turning of the tide on the opportunity issue. Tatar is getting minutes, and he deserves to get them. Gus is too, although he hasn't been as visible of late as Tats has. I've also benne impressed with Sheahan. Got his first goal the other night, the kind of goal the Wings need to score more of too--the second chance rebound near the crease while fighting traffic. Dino Ciccarelli-like goals. This has been missing from our game for several seasons, since injuries to Homer caused his decline. What will be telling is what these guys's roles will be if and when the guys they are replacing return, at least as far as ice time and lines go. They BETTER be getting more than before the injuries!

As far as the bench goes, I think they will and SHOULD lose Renney. The PP is awful. It has BEEN awful. In the last 2 seasons, at its peak it was MARGINAL. I don't hate Renney, but the PP is his baby. If the PP was good, we'd be a SIGNIFICANTLY better team than we are. I think it's time. I have complained about Babs, and by season' send, it MAY be time for him too, but he does do some positive things well. You do have to feel for him as far as the injuries go. It's been like a half-loaded gun. I suppose the same thing could be said about the PP, but when you've got an extra skater, even an average squad should score more than once in 21 tries. If this was the only such streak, that would be one thing, but there have been several of these. Time to hand the chalk to someone else, methinks.

I agree with you that without getting rid of some of the "dead weight," dealing our big guys really doesn't help as much as committing to development would.

[SpikeDDS]

Granted injuries have played a role this season and Howard has been less than stellar, but I think there is also an adjustment to playing in the East vs the West, let alone East vs West games didn't happen last year and there is a learning curve building new rivalries.  It is far too early to write off this season.

Agree with your last statement. That doesn't mean that odds don't FAVOR a write-off, but it's too early to already call it a season. But if you're gonna make something of it, you've gotta make some changes, and quickly. You can't focus on the Cup right now. You've gotta focus on some of the fundamentals, the PP being the biggest one right now. Defensive structure would be next. If we can improve those two things, and one of our goalies can get hot, that's enough to make a run, and when it comes to the "second season," that's what you need.

But it's not all gonna come together in the last couple weeks. Gotta start making the changes now.

I am certainly glad that we will be in the East. Being on the lower side of the West bracket is gonna be a rough ride to the Cup. Being in the East increases our odds.

[jammer2]

    I guess where I was going with this potential trade of either Dats or Zetts....in 2-3 years from now, how is the franchise center gonna be? Who will be the go to guy, the "man" as it were. Hard to imagine the Wings without one of those. These guys don't grow on trees, they don't become available through free agency, you either trade for one (unlikely) or draft one. I know they got lucky with Zetts and Dats really late, but that kinda stuff happens about once in a life time. Realistically, you need to be picking in the top 5-7 to get your hands on one of these future stars. The Wings will never be that bad for that to happen. If you don't think the cup is within reach with the current crop, your 2 stars are the only way to get into the right draft position. There is no rush, maybe you see how the team plays in the playoffs this year....but if the results are not promising, you run the risk of being a rich mans Calgary Flames, holding on to a star until his value drops to the point where the stuff coming back is garbage.

 

 If by chance Howard is ever bought out, this makes this type of trade more realistic, the chances of winning a cup with a kid like Murasek ...well, it can be done, but the odds are stacked against it. If Howard is bought out, the chances of a rebuild are very real. It would just suck to go with these guys for 3-4 more runs, get no results and be left with a big hole at center. I think it would be the best move for the long term health of the franchise, but I'm not a fan, just someone from the outside looking in. I do believe there are teams out there who would give up a very high pick to secure Zetts or Datsuyk, there is still lots of hockey left in them, and a struggling team could build their season ticket drives around them.

[WingNut722]

@SpikeDDS

 

Good idea about Renney.  I hadn't thought of that.  You're right in that the PP has been lousy ever since he came on board, but then, coincidentally, the PP has been lousy since Lidstrom and Holmstrom retired, so a lot of people like to point to that instead of Tom Renney.  The "kids" have been playing very well in these times and I know they'll be rewarded this season once the injuries start coming back.  It'll be a salary cap issue, though, as the big money in Franzen and Weiss start hitting the ice again.  The big, bold move by Ken Holland would be to waive Mikael Samuelsson to keep someone like Riley Sheahan up.  But realistically, if that were to happen, Patrick Eaves would be the one kept and that is still somewhat disappointing.

 

Being in the East this season certainly has given us a considerable cushion in the standings.  I shudder to think about where we would be in the West.  We've played Anaheim and San Jose both time for this season (and lost both of them).  Can you imagine seeing those teams both for an extra game?  Playing Chicago and St. Louis both 5 times with this crowd?  

 

@jammer2

You're right in that Zetterberg and Datsyuk are once-in-a-lifetime players.  But that in itself makes them irreplaceable from another team.  I should point out though that, legendary as they are, they are unlikely to "lose" their abilities as the years wear on.  These are players that will always be outstanding despite their age, like Lidstrom was.  The best thing to do is keep them on as long as they are willing so that the next generation has all the time to work with them and learn from them before they retire.  We don't want that kind of knowledge to fall into the wrong hands!  As long as Darren Helm stays healthy, he is a very capable center.  And if Steven Weiss finds his mojo, he can certainly pick up the number one spot until someone like Joaquim Andersson improves his skill.  In the meantime, as @yave1964 pointed out, we'll have a lot of money come the off-season and can certainly pick up a few key free agents to bolster that.  I haven't looked yet to see who will be available, but I'm sure their must be someone.  If times get tough, Holland has the option (albeit the grizzly one) to overpay for a hot player just to get him here. 

[yave1964]

@SpikeDDS

 

Yeah Renney has to go.

 

  Del Zotto has been the whipping boy for the new coach in New York, he has tried to get him to play the right side when he has only played the left side his entire career and has the kid all screwed up. I think he would be a perfect addition to our blue line, try to watch him when we play the Rags in a couple of days.

  I agree with Tatar, I love his no nonsense keep it simple style of play. He gets the puck and goes to the net. No wandering around looking pretty, no hesitation, if he cannot go around you he goes through you and I think he has caught some defenseman flat footed with his style of play. He has quickly become a favorite of mine. I believe Nyquist has more overall upside but the work ethic of Tatar on every shift is amazing. Simply a fun player to watch.