Is this the year Cooter and B. Schenn become NHLers ?

[Podein25]

Two things. One, I don't think it all that silly to think a player might take his weaknesses into account when deciding how to get involved in a play. In fact, i'd expect a player with strong instincts to weigh options based on factors like that more than the average guy. I can't figure out what "hockey players don't think like that means," unless you are implying they don't have any kind of risk/reward consideration as plays develop. Which strikes me as... silly.

Two, watch him. For what ever reason, couturier rarely ventures below the offensive zone faceoff dots. Whether it is because of the doesn't-want-to-get-caught thing I'm suggesting, or a fear of zamboni doors, I couldn't tell you. I'm leaning towards he knows his limitations and doesn't want to risk getting trapped. Could be wrong. Zamboni doors ARE intimidating.

Of course players calculate risk/reward, but I don't think the calculation is based on whether or not they think they suck at something.

Coots plays that way because he's being asked to do so, and because he's responsible enough to do it, not because he can't skate well enough to catch somebody. And before you say it, no he's not being asked to be the high guy because the coaches fear for his lousy skating. Or, put another way, if the coaches said: Cooter we want you to get in on the forecheck, don't worry about the 3 on 2s, Reader has you covered. Would he still stay passive because he's a lousy skater?

I realize this may sound like splitting hairs, but there's something about this notion of yours that strikes me as completely foreign.

[aziz]

I realize this may sound like splitting hairs, but there's something about this notion of yours that strikes me as completely foreign.

 

i don't think it is splitting hairs.  it isn't all that foreign, though, is it?  if we change the player in question from couturier and move it to luke schenn, we'd agree that of course that kind of thought process is going on all the time.  L schenn has to decide whether or not to pinch in from the point when the puck is along the half wall, and his evaluation of his own ability to recover should he not win the puck factors in, right?  or when deciding to try to stand a forward up in the neutral zone.  or any other time there is a risk/reward situation, and his particular talents and skill set weigh in to the amount of risk or the nature of the reward.

 

i think the question, "what happens if i try this and it doesn't work," is asked by every thinking athlete, and if there is an area in which they are weak, i think it would be normal (arguably expected, really) that they factor that into their decision making process.

[Podein25]

i don't think it is splitting hairs.  it isn't all that foreign, though, is it?  if we change the player in question from couturier and move it to luke schenn, we'd agree that of course that kind of thought process is going on all the time.  L schenn has to decide whether or not to pinch in from the point when the puck is along the half wall, and his evaluation of his own ability to recover should he not win the puck factors in, right?  or when deciding to try to stand a forward up in the neutral zone.  or any other time there is a risk/reward situation, and his particular talents and skill set weigh in to the amount of risk or the nature of the reward.

 

i think the question, "what happens if i try this and it doesn't work," is asked by every thinking athlete, and if there is an area in which they are weak, i think it would be normal (arguably expected, really) that they factor that into their decision making process.

 

I'm not so certain about that (bolded part).

I think there is a difference between knowing one's limitations (in this case it's skating in both examples) and learning how to play within them (in the case of Cooter, this means by adapting his game to have superior positioning, using his body to buy time, etc) and actively thinking about them before every decision. I don't think there's time, certainly not in hockey, to process information like that. 

I can honestly say, in all my years of playing hockey and lacrosse, I have never been conscious of that kind of decision-making process. Maybe it occurs unconsciously and through things like instincts and muscle memory etc. I just don't think it works the way you are describing it.

[fanaticV3.0]

But that wasn't your statement. Your statement was that he was :

We're talking about his capability. He has been used almost exclusively as a checker against the game's top players, he plays top PK minutes and has seen hardly any PP time. What he is capable of, playing against lesser players, playing regular PP shifts, we don't actually know. But we know he scored 96 points as a 17/18 year old in the Q playing against 20/21 year olds. So yeah, it's an overstatement.

 

Because that is what he has shown that he is. They don't just randomly throw guys on lines and hope it works out. The put them where they have proven themselves capable of playing. You earn your playing time/position on the team.

 

This is meaningless. It has no value whatsoever in the NHL.

[fanaticV3.0]

I realize that 14 must do it (score) at the NHL level and to this point he has not.  that fact is not lost on me.

Having said that, the fact that he has scored at high levels playing against his peers makes me think that he has the acumen for offensive minded play.

the whole past performance predicting future results type thing is at work when I consider this, it is not unreasonable to think that Couturier has the tools to be a really good hockey player that can score when given the opportunity.  To this point in his NHL career he hasn't been given many opportunities to be that player. I wonder what kind of numbers he would have if he were given Brayden Schenn's offensive zone starts vs weaker opponents.  If given those kinds of opportunities I think we will see 14's offensive output increase, he is one of the better stickhandlers on the team and is learning to use his frame to his advantage.  I think he'll be a top 30 player in the league when he reaches his prime.

 

His peers were a bunch of boys; most of which will not succeed in the NHL. THAT is why he scored at that level in juniors. He is one of the few who is a legit NHL caliber player, so he was lighting it up.

 

Couturier is maybe a 50-60 point guy one day. Maybe. Even if he doesn't reach that level, I have no issues with his current production if that kind of defensive play continues. But to play him on the 2nd line now? Completely unwarranted.

[fanaticV3.0]

 These statements will be proven wrong. He has an absolute boat load of untapped offensive potential. I think he gets in the mid 50's point wise and makes a run at the mid 60's the following year....and then there is still room for him to grow and evolve. He will eventually be very close to Patrice Bergeron in production and all round game. The points will come. When the points do come, the Flyers will have a noticeable advantage, because Cooter will have then earned more ice time....which will mean the other teams skilled players on the 2nd line will be effectively shutdown.

 

I'm still waiting for Carter to score 60 goals a year.

[Podein25]

This is meaningless. It has no value whatsoever in the NHL.

 

It's not a guarantee of anything, but it's hardly meaningless. It means a whole bunch of things actually. It means he has above average offensive capabilities, especially IQ and vision. It means he was worth ranking 1st overall until he got mono. It means he was worth taking at the #8 spot. It means he has a good shot of doing it against pros (potential). 

They don't just randomly throw guys on lines and hope it works out.

 

Ack, they do this all the time, experiment with different combos etc..

The put them where they have proven themselves capable of playing.

 

That's not how it happened. Cooter was the best defensive forward we had and was used accordingly from Game 1. He did not get demoted to that role after failing to perform in another role.

You earn your playing time/position on the team.

 

Finally I agree! He's been used almost exclusively as a checker and PK guy, where he has excelled/exceeded expectations. Time to reward him with more favourable match ups, better wingers and PP time, so he can realize the meaningfulness of his skills, his Q stats and his draft position.

[Mad Dog]

i don't think it is splitting hairs.  it isn't all that foreign, though, is it?  if we change the player in question from couturier and move it to luke schenn, we'd agree that of course that kind of thought process is going on all the time.  L schenn has to decide whether or not to pinch in from the point when the puck is along the half wall, and his evaluation of his own ability to recover should he not win the puck factors in, right?  or when deciding to try to stand a forward up in the neutral zone.  or any other time there is a risk/reward situation, and his particular talents and skill set weigh in to the amount of risk or the nature of the reward.

 

i think the question, "what happens if i try this and it doesn't work," is asked by every thinking athlete, and if there is an area in which they are weak, i think it would be normal (arguably expected, really) that they factor that into their decision making process.

 

Not a very applicable comparison, in my mind at least. Luke Schenn is a defensive defenseman, a stay-home defenseman in a true meaning of this word. If he pinches in, he may find himself in an embarrassing situation. And there is nothing wrong with it - he is what he is. There is simply a component in every player's game which he is not capable of.

 

Cooter, by contrast, is a very capable scorer. And I know that QMJHL doesn't even begin to approach the NHL level, but you don't put together two straight 98-point seasons by pure luck. In fact, if I am not mistaken, when he entered the draft, his M.O. was scoring, not defensive prowess.  Not sure how and what was used as a decision trigger, but Laviolette, and then Berube, made a concerted effort to use him as a defensive forward.  But that’s not because Cooter severely lacks offensive skills. And even though I have nothing to back this up with, but my gut is if… IF…. he was given a different role on the team, he would have no problem scoring.  I can’t tell how many points he would score, obviously, but I know he would be able to.

[aziz]

I can honestly say, in all my years of playing hockey and lacrosse, I have never been conscious of that kind of decision-making process. Maybe it occurs unconsciously and through things like instincts and muscle memory etc. I just don't think it works the way you are describing it.

 

you're right, there isn't an overt and drawn out mulling process.  it is an instantaneous "go or no go" question that a player asks himself.  or maybe doesn't ask himself as such, but it gets answered for all of that.

 

when you are playing and there is a loose puck 10 feet from you in the neutral zone, and an opposing player is a little closer to it than you...do you go after the puck?  or do you concede it and instead put yourself in a spot to challenge the opposing player once he picks it up?  that kind of decision-making definitely happens, even if it is so ingrained that you don't consciously run through it.  you know where you are on the ice, know what it means if you go after the loose puck and lose it, and decide how best to work with the situation.  in a split second, yes, but you are still thinking.  if there was no kind of decision making of that sort going on, the game would be nothing but 12 guys chasing everything everywhere. 

 

now, if couturier knows his physical abilities mean a lost challenge for the puck behind the net will result in a 5-4 the other way, that becomes part of his split second thought process, and he keeps himself in the best position for him to contribute but still be in position to participate if the other team gains control.  in the same way that a defenseman knows a lost challenge along the halfwall is a 2-1 the other way, and picks his spots accordingly.

[aziz]

Mad Dog, on 08 Sept 2014 - 2:25 PM, said:

Luke Schenn is a defensive defenseman, a stay-home defenseman in a true meaning of this word. If he pinches in, he may find himself in an embarrassing situation.

just as couturier would find himself in an embarrassing situation (though not AS embarrassing, granted) if he chases a puck behind the net but the other team comes up with it...and he watches was 5 opposing players rush back down the ice while the 4 other flyers desperately to cover for their missing center. at full throttle, couturier would re-enter the play after two or three shots against have been taken.

Mad Dog, on 08 Sept 2014 - 2:25 PM, said:

Cooter, by contrast, is a very capable scorer. And I know that QMJHL doesn't even begin to approach the NHL level, but you don't put together two straight 98-point seasons by pure luck. In fact, if I am not mistaken, when he entered the draft, his M.O. was scoring, not defensive prowess. Not sure how and what was used as a decision trigger, but Laviolette, and then Berube, made a concerted effort to use him as a defensive forward. But that’s not because Cooter severely lacks offensive skills. And even though I have nothing to back this up with, but my gut is if… IF…. he was given a different role on the team, he would have no problem scoring. I can’t tell how many points he would score, obviously, but I know he would be able to

i never said couturier wasn't a capable scorer, only that his speed requires he sacrifice one role for another. if he is to be used as a primarily offensive player (and I'm sure he'd be great at it), it will have to be understood that he will be late recovering after turnovers. linemates and dpairings would need to deployed with that in mind. if he is to be used in any other role, his full involvement in the offensive zone would need to be limited. he can not defend if he is 30 feet behind the play.

[Podein25]

i never said couturier wasn't a capable scorer, only that his speed requires he sacrifice one role for another. if he is to be used as a primarily offensive player (and I'm sure he'd be great at it), it will have to be understood that he will be late recovering after turnovers. linemates and dpairings would need to deployed with that in mind. if he is to be used in any other role, his full involvement in the offensive zone would need to be limited. he can not defend if he is 30 feet behind the play.

 

I'm sorry man, but I continue to be perplexed by this line of thinking. The bolded parts I find to be particularly odd. At best they are gross overstatements, at worst they are a description of a different sport, certainly not the one that I've played for 40 years.

 

First, the notion that because he lacks top end speed, he has to sacrifice roles, is absurd. You don't think that Sean Couturier played against hockey players who were faster than him in the Q? He still scored almost 100 points. What he does, because of his lack of speed, is everything else at an elite level. It more than makes up for it. To score 100 pts in the NHL, he needs to improve his skating (and his shot I would say), because players are that much better and he cannot make up for as much of it. 

Second, it's a team sport. Players, never mind coaches, expect players to be "late recovering" - they fall down (some more than most), they get tripped up, they get tired, they run into the refs, they get injured. Big deal. That's part of every shift. 

Third, re deployment. Yeah, you put speed on the wings of a playmaking center. Check. As for D you employ, actually you can put your most risky D on with Coots because he will be sure to cover up for them. His lack of speed doesn't enter the equation.

Fourth, the logic of your last sentence is too absurd to comment on. See above.

EDIT: I could have shortened my rant by asking just one question, ok two: have you ever seen Wayne Gretzky skate? Or Dale Hawerchuck?

[doom88]

Pods, the new NHL is about speed. Those old guys don't really compare.

[Podein25]

Pods, the new NHL is about speed. Those old guys don't really compare. 

 

I know. I say it all the time. But the game hasn't changed that much. The way Cooter's skating is being talked about, you'd think that skating was the only skill that ever mattered in hockey. It isn't. It's just one (very important) factor. Rico Fata would still not make it in today's NHL because that's all he could do, but literally nothing else. 

I find this entire conversation bizarre, so I think I will just leave it at this point. It would be easier to hash it out over beer but that's not an option. If I continue I will surely end up saying something like: "Lemme guess, you've never played the game have you?" which is, you know, snotty and disrespectful. 

[doom88]

I know. I say it all the time. But the game hasn't changed that much. The way Cooter's skating is being talked about, you'd think that skating was the only skill that ever mattered in hockey. It isn't. It's just one (very important) factor. Rico Fata would still not make it in today's NHL because that's all he could do, but literally nothing else.

I find this entire conversation bizarre, so I think I will just leave it at this point. It would be easier to hash it out over beer but that's not an option. If I continue I will surely end up saying something like: "Lemme guess, you've never played the game have you?" which is, you know, snotty and disrespectful.

A little, but very fair. I wonder if we are just narrowly missing on a nuance. Sorry we couldn't see eye to eye on this one.

You're right about speed not being everything BTW. I do however think a lack of it severely limits two-way effectiveness at the NHL level.

[Podein25]

@doom88

Ha, "narrowly missing on a nuance" might as well be my middle name!

I fear that I have come on too strong over a trivial matter so will make my apologies to @aziz in advance.

[aziz]

First, the notion that because he lacks top end speed, he has to sacrifice roles, is absurd. You don't think that Sean Couturier played against hockey players who were faster than him in the Q? He still scored almost 100 points. What he does, because of his lack of speed, is everything else at an elite level. It more than makes up for it.

 

my point is this:  if sean couturier drops below the offensive goal line and the puck is turned over, he will be 30 feet behind the average NHL player in recovering.  for all of his undeniably elite attributes, his acceleration is brutal.  from a stop at the end boards, the average opposing defenseman will hit center red before couturier hits the blueline.  that guaranteed separation from go means that couturier needs to decide if he is playing in an offensive or defensive role, because his skating will not allow him to do both.  either he commits deep offensively (and i'm sure would do a great job) and allows that he won't be able to contribute on counter rushes, or he does not commit offensively and maintains the positional ability to be a defensive factor.  his mobility demands a decision one way or the other.  his elite attributes do not cover that.  he sees the ice wonderfully, is a sharp and accurate passer, protects the puck extremely well....but when it comes time to recover, those don't even begin to factor in, because he accelerates like a freaking smartcar.

 

if the flyers decide they want offense out of him, i have no doubt he will be a significant contributor.  as you point out, he lit it up in junior, and we've all seen how strong he is with the puck.  and that's great.  they'll have to decide they don't need the defensively airtight couturier, though, if they go that direction.  his pointA-to-pointB just isn't nearly strong enough to do both.  the delay as he literally comes up to speed is too much to be involved at both ends.  

 

look, to melt it down:  he goes goal line to goal line way slower than most, and so if he wants to not get caught well behind the play, he need to always be giving himself a headstart.  which is to say hover at the hashmarks.  as we have seen him do for the entirety of his NHL career.  if his role is to score and leave the defense to others, then he can give away the headstart and get involved in offensive plays down low.  both are not an option, unless he finds a skating coach that can fix his really remarkably slow first 3 strides.

 

i don't mean to burn the guy, i think he is an amazing asset for the flyers.  there aren't a lot of better defensive forward options; selke trophies are just a matter of time.  he happens to have a particular flaw that requires he focus his attention on one area or another, offense or defense.

 

you mention gretsky and hawerchuck...but i kind of think they make my point.  those were a pair of offensive players.  almost exclusively offensive players.  gretsky is where the "he met his goalie at the christmas party" jokes all started.  they made the exact decision i'm talking about:  they decided to be offensive players, and the defense would come as it could.  if that is how couturier is targeted next season, i have no doubt he'll do an impressive job.  but the defensive couturier won't be on the ice.  the positioning of one role is too different from the positioning of the other role for his skating to transition between, the play moves past him.  he is one kind of force or another.

 

i don't know why this got all complicated.  imo, we either see OFFENSE->GO couturier, or we continue to see defensive couturier.  i think it will be one or the other, i don't think he can bridge the gap to provide both.  we'll see. 

[aziz]

@doom88

Ha, "narrowly missing on a nuance" might as well be my middle name!

I fear that I have come on too strong over a trivial matter so will make my apologies to @aziz in advance.

 

hey, no worries.  and i'm sorry, too.  not a lot going on, rainy day, went pounding down a rabbit hill.

 

either way, should be an interesting season.  many questions.

[mojo1917]

I think some good game management from the coaching staff and linemates with speed can help mitigate the risk of Sean being caught on the "wrong" side of the puck...and if he has the puck and his line is dealing in the offensive zone maybe he only needs to skate back to the bench or face off circle at center. The Babcock theory of; pfft, get the puck and keep it , may be at work with regards to expanding Sean's game.

[Podein25]

The Babcock theory of; pfft, get the puck and keep it , may be at work with regards to expanding Sean's game. 

 

I find myself a frequent agreer with your posts these days @mojo1917. I love that Babcock quote.

Possession matters more than ever, so his quote is more relevant than ever. But it's actually an old school philosophy in my mind: "the best defence is a good offence" (i.e. having the puck in their zone). The game has changed dramatically, but it's still just hockey. 

As for Cooter. Who cares if he's trapped down below the goal line and is too slow to get back?! One of his wingers can bloody well play defensively for once. About time they learned really.

[aziz]

As for Cooter. Who cares if he's trapped down below the goal line and is too slow to get back?! One of his wingers can bloody well play defensively for once. About time they learned really.

 

look, man, i'm just saying he can't do both on the same shift.  that's it.  right there with you, if that's the game they/he want to play, then go, and he'll be great at it.  either/or, though.