Old School Hockey

@Old School Hockey

 

Bertuzzi pled guilty to assault. Period. Guilt is no longer the issue, damages are. Crawford, Burke and the Canucks all settled with Bert agreeing to pay an unspecified amount of the settlement. This is a walk.

  Hey, Polaris is a great guy, one of my favorite posters in here. I think everyone needs to simply back away from the ledge and take a deep breath and bash on Kenny Holland. That is what I do when I get too worked up and it seems to help.

We are not talking about guilt or innocence. We are talking about an AHL call up being compared to an NHL player.

But what happens when there are differing opinions about what is opinion vs what is fact? Therein lies the rub.

Fact is Bertuzzi had 39 points in 76 games in his first season while Moore had 12 points in 69 games total NHL games. Bertuzzi was in the minor ONE time in career. Moore was a call up for injuries. To say Moore had more potential than Bertuzzi's 47m lifetime salary is ridiculous at best.

Everything I noted above except for the sentence is fact.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it was no assumption. Your comments show a lack of empathy for the injuries involved, which display a lack of experience with them. There was no insult meant or stated in the use of the word. I am ignorant to the mechanics of a motorcycle or nuclear aircraft carriers. It's not an insult, I just don't know about how they work.

Empathy does not equal truth. Empathy is just empathy!

BTW in my years of watching and playing I can make a pretty good determination of a 3rd line AHL player. 12 points in 69 NHL games and zero playoffs games. As I noted earlier see Ken Germander.

Someone having life changing injuries is an opinion? Have you ever known someone who can't do those things because of an injury or illness? I assure you it's not an opinion. If he truly has the issues the doctors (his and others) say he has, there is no opinion to it. My wife has these same health limitations. Has since she was 24. I see first hand the emotional and psychological toll such limitations take on a person. Especially raising children and not being able to participate in so many things. THAT is why I can say how it hampers a person without it being opinion. It's something you haven't had to experience. I get that. I hope you never do. But it doesn't minimize the impact on Moore's life that is the direct result of a criminal assault by Bertuzzi.

You can lump the Simon and McSorley hits in there too. I'm all for it.

Enough with the butthurt. I can't help it you were unaware of the true definition of a word and took it personally. But if every single comment you make is going to be aggressive, it only reflects poorly on you.

I took it personally because you made an assumption of SOMEONE you have never met! That my friend is at the very least disingenuous at best.

Someone having life changing injuries is an opinion? Have you ever known someone who can't do those things because of an injury or illness? I assure you it's not an opinion. If he truly has the issues the doctors (his and others) say he has, there is no opinion to it. My wife has these same health limitations. Has since she was 24. I see first hand the emotional and psychological toll such limitations take on a person. Especially raising children and not being able to participate in so many things. THAT is why I can say how it hampers a person without it being opinion. It's something you haven't had to experience. I get that. I hope you never do. But it doesn't minimize the impact on Moore's life that is the direct result of a criminal assault by Bertuzzi.

You can lump the Simon and McSorley hits in there too. I'm all for it.

Enough with the butthurt. I can't help it you were unaware of the true definition of a word and took it personally. But if every single comment you make is going to be aggressive, it only reflects poorly on you.

Have YOU seen the actually documents? Until you post them you're a talking point for Moore and it's an opinion.

They are doing this pro-Bono? Where did you read that?

 

P.S Simmer down my good man. I know this is a touchy subject but we all need to take a step back, breathe, and remember we are all just hockey fans.

 

Like others have said, it is a polarizing subject.

 

I know when i get into debate/Crossfire mode, I can come on a little strong and I apologize if I go over a bit. I expect the same haha, but I want to keep it in the realms of Hockey trash talk and not get personal.

When someone calls me ignorant because his opinion is different than mine! It don't take that lightly. Yes I know I'm the new guy here and I should just take the crap and say "yes sir two bags full"

The offseason of the Detroit Red Wings was filled with promise. After a year in which the Wings squeeked into the playoffs and managed to retool on the fly, outsourcing and handing the gold watch to veterans such as Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary and Tootoo and showing them the door while young kids like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Glendening and Sheahan claimed jobs with a combination of hard work and skill the Wings entered the offseason with high hopes and over ten million dollars in cap space. The Wings who have made the playoffs every year since the first Bush administration looked ready to retool the defense and maybe even add a forward and be a force in the East going forward.

  And then the wheels fell off.

 

Dan Boyle, who was their first choice took less money to go to the Rangers.

Matt Niskanen turned the Wings down for the same money in Washington.

Stephane Robidas thanked them politely then chose the Maple Leafs.

Anton Strallman chose the Lightning.

Radam Vrbata got frustrated waiting on the final offer from the Wings and chose the Canucks.

 

  And to make it worse, after swinging and missing on every defenseman in the league they resigned Kyle Quincey. for a raise. Really.

 

  And now Daniel Alfredsson has the Wings cap space held hostage, they would love to have their 41 year old leading scorer back for one more year but his back is ailing (See Bertuzzi, Todd) and he wants to wait until August, right before camp to decide if he wants to keep playing. There are still a few guys out there, Ribiero, Ott, Setoguchi who would help the Wings as top nine forwards, but by waiting on Alfredsson they already missed Vrbata who signed a very reasonable deal with the Canucks (2 years, 6 million) and the other forwards will be gone by the time that Alfie decides to likely ride into the sunset.

 

  The Wings are supposedly looking for a trade for a top pair defenseman, but Mike Green and Tyler Myers are off the market, the Capitals and Sabres saying neither will be traded. Keith Yandle has been mentioned for years but the price would be too high. Same with Big Buff in Winnipeg. Everyone knows the pressure the Wings are under to make a move and are asking for Nyquist, Tatar or top prospect Mantha. After giving up solid prospect Calle Jarnkrok to the Predators for six weeks of David Legwand, the Wings need to keep the forwards they have.

 

  So in short, the entire bland defense is back. I love Kronwall, hell I REALLY love the guy, he is my favorite player. He is the best number three d-man in the game but as a number one, he is lacking. The rest of the defense is bland and lacks an identity. Brendan Smith has underachieved but has shown promise, Danny Dekeyser is gonna be a good one, but the rest are boring and ordinary.

 

  Jimmy Howard needs to bounce back next year after a wretched season. The kids need to avoid the sophomore slump. Mantha may need to bypass the AHL and earn a top six spot right out of juniors. And the defense? God only knows.

 

  They still have cap space galore, if Alfie hangs them up which the whispers which are getting louder seem to be saying, perhaps they can take someone's overpriced d-man on. Brian Campbell, warts and all has been mentioned and while I know he has many holes in his game he would be a good fit.

  Unless the Wings trade for him and he breaks his wrist signing an extension on his contract. Which the way the Wings offseason has went I could almost see happening.

I'd take Setoguchi and Ott for the right price.

My math is a bit off, but league minimum is like $600k. So it would be more like 9 years at league minimum.

 

And in any case, the system will require him to prove lost earnings, while the other side will call upon GM's and the business side to show why e was a marginal NHL player who likely stays in the AHL to lower the settlement.

 

The cap limit is specifically for "Pain and suffering" damages and punitive damages, and limits it to $1350000. He could still make bank if he convinced the judge he would have made 60 million in salaries. If. Like I said, he will need to have experts in the field(GM's/Agents) backing him up. Should be an ugly show.

 

You can call it a joke all you want, but the bigger joke is the system that let's a woman sue McDonald's for 3 million dollars and win because she did not know hot coffee could burn her if she tried to open it in the car to add condiments. Our cap is what prevents such lawsuits.

 

Show me these recent hospital and medical teams in the last 5 years that are not his personal "Experts" on the stand?

His legal team is looking to take in at least 50% of the take. So as much as I'd like to say they're helping poor ole 3rd line AHL player Moore they're looking to line their pockets. Hence the ridiculous 68m demand.

You can watch hockey 50 years it doesn't mean you can see into the future. You can't predict what a Holmgren will pay. So Moore most likely wouldn't have been all star material. Doesn't mean he wouldn't make millions. And in suing someone you sue for potential income as well so how do you predict that?
you showed no empathy for the life impact of his injuries. None. You can hate a guy and still empathize with their injury. (see Chris Pronger)
You can't just disregard that.
The point is you're wrong on the value of the man's quality if life. Being unable to dispute that, it's easier to locker room the debate. Moore already won this when Bertuzzi plead guilty. It's just a question of how much. If Canada's system restricts him to 3 or 5 million then the whole system is a joke. He could've made that in three years at league minimums.

For the record there are several teams of doctors that support Moore'sside of the medical damages including the hospital that saw him, the hospitals follow up trauma team, Moore's doctors, and BOTH insurance companies the NHL uses for comp claims. I've covered this before. The NHL asking to see yet another set if doctors is the NHL playing the game, not Moore avoiding it. Of course he won't see them. I wouldn't either. Only a fool would.

The quality of life is the issue. Again... What price do you put on the ability to catch baseball with your kid? Ride a roller coaster with them? Watch fireworks? Walk all day through Disney World? All things severe vertigo does away with. How much is that worth?

None of us... Here, the Av's, the NHL... Nobody knows how much Moore could have earned. Tyler Kennedy got $2,000,000 to be a scratch. Engelland just got $2,900,000 a year to do what again? Guys are getting $5,000,000 a year to be role players. Moore was a role player. Who knows what some lunatic GM would've paid him somewhere along the way?

Like it or not his twam's comments about being equal to Salic or Forsberg can be interpreted to mean he's in the big leagues now playing for a Stanley Cup. Which he was. I don't see him saying he was their equal in talent, just that he skated with them for it all, which he did. Funny how perspective can change the meaning.

Simply put, Moore deserves Bertuzzi's money more than Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi will retire and be wealthy regardless. Moore will be handicapped the rest of his life. However slight you may think that's worth.

In fairness, when Samuelsson was sucker punched by Tie Domi, knocked out cold and concussed. Domi got a mild suspension and most players, coaches and GM's around the league PRAISED the sucker punch as deserved.

 

In fact, none of Ulf's teammates really even came to his defense, other than to mildly hold Domi, which was kind of hilarious.

But most hilarious was that Ulf Samuelsson got a call from his wife and she yelled at him on the phone for not being ready to absorb the punch because he had been asking for it.

 

Samuelsson of course, was selective and made his intentional knee on knees look like accidents. In Today's NHL with all the angles on cameras, he would be suspended more than Torres and Cook.

How much did Samuelsson's hit on Neely cost Neely in future salary? To be quite frank!!!! This were these dirty hit arguments piss me off when they ignore all of the other dirty hits.

Why is there never the hatred for the many others that were much worse with far less punishment?

McSorley

Samuelsson

Simon

Richard (attacked a linesman)

Hunter

And the list goes on.

Bertuzzi's actions were disgusting but an axe handle swing like Simon's were much worse with much worse INTENTIONS!

I think Bertuzzi should've been banned from the NHL.

I think he should've served jail time.

I think no one knows what Moore could've been, third line or otherwise. But thanks to Bertuzzi, Moore never gets a chance to find out, either.

And I think Moore will suffer the effects of Bertuzzi's assault for the rest of his days.

How much do you value time spent with your children? Or grandchildren? Riding rides or watching fireworks? I have a wife that can't do those things because of an illness, and I see how it hurts her to miss out. Moore may be missing out on those things as well, BECAUSE if Bertuzzi's actions.

So tell me again what Moore is worth. What life is worth. Tell me again how you all know so much what someone else's quality if life is worth.

Do you realize Moore was offered a contract but his legal team would NOT let him anywhere near a doctor for a physical?

Here's the question for you? If there's no doubt in anyone's mind he's so badly injured why would his legal team not want him to take a physical to prove he's injured.

I'm not going through all this again. I hope he wins. You hope he loses. Done deal.

So you think he should get more than Bertuzzi? He was a board line AHL 3rd liner!

Bump...

In the last few days I've read he's seeking $68,000,000.00! A boarder line 4th line player? Bertuzzi himself has only made 47m. While I feel he should get compensation but nowhere north of 10m.

Let the Bertuzzi bashing start rather than debate the topic.

@Old School Hockey  Easy to accuse, very hard to prove.

They did prove it baseball. Old owners like Jacobs are itching to say nobody will tell me what to do.

Ummm....... If we had this kinda stuff filling up an AHL roster, I'd never have a bad thing to say about my GM....EVER. He has set your team up for the next decade. Yieesssshhhh.....no respect.

 

 http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/detroit_red_wings/

2008 is long ago and many of those players were Bowman players.

Agree with everything you stated. There is a reason that in the CBA there is clear compensation. It is a strategic move to make a club better. Not every team has deep pockets- even in the cap era, but so what. For me, balls out in business and I will still be your buddy on the golf course. 

 

The problem is it seems reverse in the NHL. I get the buddy - buddy / keep your enemies closer thing, but we are talking about multi million dollar corporations. 

 

At the end of the day, its the fans that pay everyone. Why cow tow to other gms when you should be kissing the feet of the fans and putting the best product on ice to pacify them.

Are you saying there's collusion in the NHL? Why wouldn't the NHLPA be over that?

Ehrhoff is trying to drive his value up with a year if Sid and Malkin. Boyle turned down a 3 year deal for less money and 2 years of playing with his old buddy MSL. No idea what Niskanen was thinking.

Holland did NOT blow them out of the water.  Just like Suter.  If you put the "can't refuse it" offer out there they'd have a great UFA or two.

Name the last big UFA Holland has brought in?

What were your expectations? Just curious? You have 9+m in cap to play with, but some key positions to fill. How is the farm. This actually sounds like the dialogue (in reverse) with a pens fan regarding cap hit / space. 

 

For me, don't get too enamored with the shiny new toy that just passed by.

 

I honestly don't know much about holland- i just know that your team always compete hard and not withstanding  significant injuries last year, could have made a decent run.

My expectations? One of the following. Erhoof, Boyle or Niskanen. I that order!

This is like christmas with a GREAT looking (cap space) tree with nothing under it (no UFA signings).

Great to see many great moves (sacrcasim) made by Kenny.

Can't wait to hear "it just didn't fit"!

Erhoff to Pittsburgh.

Osgood again, lol.

  It is true, sometimes a team makes the Stanley Cup finals (2010 Flyers, 2009 Wings) and sometimes an average goalie is carried by a team (Osgood again, Crawford in Chicago) to a cup win even. But more often than not it is the other way around. Nobody can convince me the starting 18 for the Rangers were better than the Flyers, the Penguins or the Canadiens, but Lundqvist got them there and carried his team. Personally, I always bet on the team with the better goalie in the playoffs but it does happen. Just ask Boucher and Leighton.

 

 

Osgood was??? Just saying. 

 

The Osgood with 400 wins, 3 Cups (two as the starter) and 2.09 GAA in the playoffs.  I'd take that Osgood over any of the current Red Wing goalies.

 

Since OP noted the Wings. I watched the Wings lose on several offside plays. But that really nothing to with my opinion on this. It's about time.