fanaticV3.0

This is from Tim Pinnochio so I dont know how accurate this is but he is saying...

 

"There’s a reason why Ron Hextall came back to the organization and a reason why you no longer hear Hexy’s name mentioned anywhere else in the NHL when a GM spot opens up, including Washington, recently. The assumption is that Hextall will replace Holmgren, sooner rather than later.

Holmgren is entering the final year of his contract, but a number of NHL sources believe he will step aside and return to amateur scouting. As one source noted, scouting is what Holmgren has always liked best. He misses the relationship with that side of hockey."

 

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/flyers-have-big-questions-address-offseason

If Homer steps down, is fired, or "reassigned" I don't care. What I want to know is how is Hextall any different? He's still one of the good old boys. And is it going to matter anyway? The old man has his finger prints all over just about every contract.

well, the thing that is most maddening about him is that he still has some very good games. he's just extremely inconsistent and that is a problem, but what's the answer? maybe a change of venue is the right answer for him. 

I don't even care anymore. It's not he's great for 3/4 of the season and only struggles part of the time. I could stomach it then. But he's a non-factor to bad a healthy chunk of the time now. He's 29. This is what he is. He's not going to change at this point.

i think it is a matter of ice time.  if your first and second lines are skating 18 minutes each, your third 14, there is only 10 minutes left in a non-OT game.  add in special teams time, and it drops even further.  even a deep pocketed team can find it hard to justify $4mil talent for ~8 minutes per night.

That's a choice though. If you don't have any other options than the Rinaldos, Rosehills, and Halls of the world, then that's fine. But if you can throw a struggling vet (not an idea situation, but more like the best of a bad one) or a promising kid (Akeson) into that mix then by all means do it.

 Trade Coburn to Edmonton for whatever we can take them for.

I'm over him. I defended him before, but I'm done. I don't want anything to do with him. He looked brutal in the POs and off and on throughout the year.

Sometimes the moves/trades never made are the best moves. Do not touch this team too much. Vinny needs to go. Eat half his salary if need be. But open that center spot for schenn full time. Let him actually play his position for a full season before we throw him away. Hartnell? He stays. Besides him and Simmonds we have no size. Eaten alive by Boston. People who wants harts gone are just looking at points , not what else he brings. Wake up people. Trade him you better have another power forward coming back like Ryan. Love hall. But if we can get Laughton in the line up, I like him on the forth line. Work his way in. Rafl and Rinaldo would be good wingers for him. For the forward group all that's missing is a second line winger . I'm not sure who you plug is there. Reid? Maybe a ufa? Trade? Not sure.

On d comes the most shocking moves I have in store. Keep it the same and bring in some more youth. Kimmo needs to go though, unless at a severely reduced salary and roster position. Morin,ghost,alt need to be given the chance to take a or some spots. Perfect world ghost and morin are ready.

Bottom line. My youth stays and that's what I build around. Because in this league now you have to have youth in your line up.

Sure if I could get weber for like Laughton and a 1st and Gus I would take it. Lol

Schenn played more games at center than Vinny did this year. Vinny spent most of the season on the wing, a position he's never played. I'm not as down on Schenn as some others are, and I'm more than willing to continue to let him develop, but this whole idea that he hasn't gotten the chance at center isn't true.

If by youth you mean the guys already on the roster, I completely agree. But I don't care about Ghost, Morin, Laughton, or any of those kids yet. I'd trade them for something tangible in a second. This team does not need more inexperience right now. That winger and defenseman they need (which mostly everyone agrees upon) ain't gonna come from our farm system.

We're pretty much on the same page with all of this.

 

There is the question of whether having a strictly "energy" fourth line makes sense or, given the resources, making 1, 1a, 3, 3a lines for example. 18, 18, 12, 12 minutes?

 

They've had to rely more on the top line this year out of desperation and necessity. They got into a Top Six playoff spot and have gained some valuable experience in a 4-3 loss.

 

Guys are either going to have to step up next season - and I do think they will give this core well into next season - or management will make some significant moves.

 

Having VLC on the fourth in a situation where the coach plays the fourth 6-8 minutes isn't that effective. Even giving him second line PP minutes. 

This conversation prompted be to create that "4th line" thread in the general area. I mean that too. Why do teams seems to think you "have to" have muckers and grinders on the 4th? That's just dumb imo. If that is all you have or can afford, that's a separate issue. But if you can make it the best possible line, why not? There's not enough outside the box thinking in sports sometimes.

I'm not really concerned about the money.  I mean, first of all, it's not my money so what do I care?

 

My problem is at the salary and the completely shitty performance they cannot move him which likely means we're stuck with him taking up a roster spot for someone--anyone--who would likely be more productive just by being conscious.   VLC can go on safari with Downie for all I care.   I never had a problem with him in Tampa but there is a glaring reason why Tampa used their buyout on him.  Holmgren should be shot for that contract.

I'm not concerned about the money either. Or I should say I'm concerned about it for the same reasons you are. What am asking though is who really have we missed out because of these bad contracts? They got out of the Briere one. Timonen has been here forever, as has Hartnell (and he's apparently here until I retire), but they could still afford to go out and blow money like a kid on his first visit to the strip club.

Given coach's predilictions for swapping players on lines and "trying to shake things up" it is not beyond the realm of possibility he took "2nd line" shifts in some games.

 

He didn't start there until the 3rd game of the playoffs when every reporter and media outlet covering the team noted the significant change in moving him back to the 2nd line.

 

I don't specifically care if Schenn plays wing, center or serves popcorn in the press box. But VLC isn't a "better" second line option and quite frankly I'd err on the side of the 22 year old developing over the 34 year old reestablishing his game after five years of steady decline.

Again, I'm ready, willing and able to find a better second line center. Lacking one, I'll stick with Schenn.

The constant changing of the lines and positions has to stop. I don't mind doing it when something isn't working, but doing it too much does nothing but hurt.

I don't care about age, I care about who's capable of doing the job and doing it well. At 37 and 41 points a piece, neither option stands out. Schenn has the "he could get better" thing going for him, but you also have to take into account Vinny has never played wing in his entire career and was asked to do that for the first time...at 33. That's just bad coaching. Personally, I wouldn't mind him on the 4th and special teams minutes, but they're not going to put a $4+ million dollar player there on a regular basis.

When I watched Voracek develop, it was clear he had the skills.

I see no signs from Schenn that he will be more than a role player.

Do you watch him play? Do you ever come away and say, "what a great game he played."

I don't.

Schenn hit 20 goals much sooner in his career than Voracek you know.

Raffl is not a 1st line player. I like the guy and hope to God he doesn't fizzle out after a nice surprise of a season, and I really believe a good role player is important (especially if you can get them young), but that delusion needs to stop. Berube needs to stop putting him with Giroux and fans need to stop thinking he belongs there. He doesn't. I think you could have a really nice 3rd and 4th lines if you spread out Couturier, Read, Raffle, and Akeson (who absolutely makes this team until he proves he doesn't belong there) if I'm in charge.

Could Couturier play with Simmonds and Vanek? Absolutely not. As good as he is in so many areas of the game, his offense is downright non-existent at times. He had 0 points in the playoffs. 0. This after he went 20 something games without a goal and something like 2 assists in that time span. Love him as a role player, but he has no offensive game. 

1st thing I do if I'm the GM is sit down with the coach and tell him to stop juggling the God damn lines so much. Raffl, Vinny, and Schenn were bounced around - not only on different lines, but positions - so much, it's no wonder some of these guys can't develop any consistency.

The team's biggest needs are defense and a 1st line winger.

They ideally need a few defensemen, but let's be real, it'll be hard to get just 1. Plus, if you get one that's good enough, they can make up for a lot. Pronger took a team that only played half the time, and had a Cinderella story goalie, to the Cup. There aren't enough words to describe that kind of importance a player like that has to a team. If they only do one more this off season, this should be it. And when I say defenseman, I mean a guy who can actually play defense. I don't want any more of these "good in the transition game" type of guys. If we can a guy that has good offense, great, but he needs to be capable in his own end first.

Voracek and Simmonds could arguably be Giroux's linemates, but I'd like to spread the wealth a little and keep Simmonds on the 2nd line. I'd love to see a big body on the 1st line with Giroux and Voracek.

Speaking of size, this team is a little small. They got bullied by the Rangers. Ideally, you address that too.

I wouldn't bother with Rinaldo. They don't play him when it matters anyway. I'd rather try and fill out the 4th line with guys like Couturier, Raffl, or even Akeson. Hell, I'd take Hall over Rinaldo. I would resign Timonen for a year if he was willing to play for less and they realized he'd be best as a 4-6. I would move Coburn and Schenn, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Laughton, Ghost, Heeter, and all these other kids names being tossed around are not the answer. This team needs some veterans. Fill in the roster with those kids (if they even make it) over the next several years, but the last thing this team needs is more inexperience. Giroux and Mason need some help, not more guys that can't help them.

You realize that on a ppg basis Schenn has made No progression at all.

So what? After going from 38 to 50 points in one year, Jake scored less (than 50) every year for the next 3 years.  He only just reached his highest points total in a single season this year - his 6th season.

He was moved to the fourth line on March 28

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/28/lecavalier-demoted-to-fourth-line-berube-says-he-expected-more-from-veteran/

 

He got moved back up to the second on April 22

http://www.nj.com/flyers/index.ssf/2014/04/flyers_vincent_lecavalier_promoted_from_fourth_line_to_second_for_game_3_happy_hell_get_more_ice_tim.html

 

That's 10 regular season games and then two playoff games.

 

I absolutely concur that the "demotion" paid dividends for him and the team.

 

I'm not saying 100% that Schenn is "the answer" on the second line. Far from it. But he was projected as a #1 coming out of Junior and was traded for to fill the second line role in Philly.

 

I'd just like to see what they have there. Not at all overly enamored with the player at this point. When he was moved to the 2 line position, he had two goals over the span - both against Buffalo.

I'm almost positive that game 3 of the POs was not the first time he played on the 2nd line since the demotion. Besides the fact that I'm fairly certain I saw it, the article you linked to says "he pretty much stayed there until now" when talking about his move to the 2nd line center for game 3. Hell, it says he played there some in game 2. I don't think it was 12 straight games of him on the 4th line. We can't even go 12 minutes of guys playing the same position, let alone games.

You know what surprised me in that article? It said Vinny spent most of the season playing on Schenn's wing. I would have put money on it that Vinny centered the 2nd line more than Schenn and makes me think Schenn isn't a center even more than I already did.

Is it too much to ask for the old coot to go on a racist tirade? It would be for the good of the team.

I think that's the only shot we have, because we all know he's going to live to be 120, and still running the team from his hospital bed. He will never voluntarily give up the team.

And as much as I want him out, I fear for what happens when he is gone. I don't want Jay Snider anywhere near this team ever again.

you call that Ed Snider!

I don't like scapegoating. I think it's shortsighted. There's never one person to blame for everything.

But that doesn't mean there can't be one person who has the most blame and that is sure as **** the old man! I'm going to go on record right now and say that if they fire Homer any time soon, nothing will change unless the old man allows Homer, a new GM, or anyone else to do their job. These contract signings, the length and the money of them, they are without a doubt the doing of the old man. We know him and moves like that have his signature all over them.

We're simply not there yet. I'm concerned because moves like assigning VLC make that curve longer. He, in particular, was ridiculous in these playoffs.

I think our youth isn't quite there yet and our expensive vets are past their utility. I actually don't think we're that far away.

Anyway, I'll take in the playoffs vs. Missing them. It was fun

This might sound like a dumb question, but I can assure you I'm totally serious. When's the last time or how often do these signings really hurt us? I mean when has money actually been the reason they couldn't get a player they needed/wanted? Vinny was a bad signing, I'm not debating that, but they could still afford him after overpaying for guys like Briere, Hartnell, or Timonen (in either amount of money or length of contract). And after Vinny, they could still afford to sign MacDonald to too much. Before some dope says that I said that approach isn't a problem, I'm not saying it. I'm saying that we always find a way to afford who we want.

I don't think we are either. I think they need a few veteran pieces. What I wouldn't give to see Pronger and Jagr on this team, because that's exactly what I think they need. They also need some size. They're too small and the Rangers bullied them throughout the series.

Agreed. Not only was it fun, it was progress. This is not "another missed opportunity", this is a young team starting to establish itself. It sucks that they played poorly last night, but after missing the POs last year, firing their coach this year, and really establishing a young core this season, this is without a doubt a step in the right direction. Anyone preaching "40 years!" need some perspective today.

Who cares if it was on the power play? You're point seemed to be that he had "re-energized" his game on the fourth line. Well, his "re-energization" occurred primarily AWAY from the fourth line. That's the point. And being "effective" against Buffalo and Florida doesn't mean a hill of beans in a playoff series against the Rangers, Penguins, Bruins or the Western Conference Champion.

 

If Berube DIDN'T HAVE VLC then he wouldn't have made the decision to move him to the 4th or back to the 2nd or to wing or to be the popcorn guy in the press box. In that respect his sheer presence is the point.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree with this.

He was getting special teams play before the demotion, but was struggling. After the demotion he didn't coincidentally put up better numbers. It pissed him off, he produced, and it allowed Schenn to play at center, both of which went away when Berube ended the project after a couple of games. There was no reason to do that at all. One guy actually woke up and the other was getting to chance to play his natural position. I don't think Schenn is a center, but that's another discussion.

i really appreciate your posts but Voracek is a world class player. he's definitely "there." b schenn stinks, he will never get "there."

 

sadly,  i do think that the flyers are not very talented but it's a team sport and a great team with less talent can beat a star studded collection of players who dont play cohesively. unfortunately, the flyers fall victim - far too frequently - to not playing as "one," to not playing with passion, desperation.

 

and, that, is why they have so much trouble with consistency.

 

don't get me wrong, i still contend that the flyers will have trouble with truly talented teams who play together, who play with a purpose. as i said in a past post, having 2/3 of a top line won't cut it.

 

i hope i am wrong, but...

Ok, first of all, world class? Are you high? And I like Jake, but world class?!

Schenn just finished his first full season in the league. He scored 20 goals, which is something Jake couldn't say in his first, second, third, fourth....I think you get the point. Jake just finished his 6th season in the league and had a breakout year this year. Tell me how Schenn "will never get there" please. I'm curious.

Jake has 4 points in this year's playoffs. Schenn has...wait, 3? So that's only 1 point less than Jake the world class player? Well ****...

when you're just going to sit them during the playoffs? This stems a little bit from another thread, but not completely.

Why do you bother keeping these guys on the roster if you have such little faith in them? Why is there this belief that your 4th line has to be muckers and grinders? I hate that kind of thinking. There's not enough outside the box thinking in sports when it comes to stuff like that.

It's not just a money thing either, because you could just as easily fill out your fourth line with prospects or veterans who aren't capable of what they used to be, but still have something left to contribute. Playing Vinny on the fourth line would be a good example of that. Not that you'd go out and sign a guy to $4mil just for that, but why not try and make the best of a bad situation? Throw him out there with some prospects, or a prospects, and just one who is offensively inept, instead of two. 

It's kind of like playing Timonen like he's still a #1. Coaches at like you're still at the top of your game or not capable of playing anymore. There's a whole lot in between those two extremes.

Absolutely. But the problem was created when Holmgren went out and signed him the past off-season. VLC did not create this problem; the Flyers did. Even an amateur, entry-level hockey person, who may have at least some rudimentary understanding of how to construct rosters, should have been able to envision that when you have a glut of players playing at the same position, it could mean nothing but headaches and that someone... SOMEONE would be asked to play out of his natural position. And when that person who you are bringing in is more than just a redundant player, but an expensive, over-the-hill player, all one can do is scratch his head in disbelief. 

I'm past "it was a bad signing" Besides being very obvious, there's no point in talking about it over-and-over again. The focus now is what are you gonna do now that they're in that situation?

Personally, I thought they had a decent answer to that question when they moved Vinny to 4th line and special teams minutes, but that lasted all of 2 games. Berube should have never moved him from the 4th imo. It got him going and would have allowed Schenn to play at center for longer than 5 minutes.

Sure, absolutely. But the reason it is a problem at all is because VLC is on the roster.

 

 

 

 

VLC didn't do much "on the fourth line" after he was moved there. He had a goal in his first game there, on the power play. Added a fourth line goal and a 6th-man goal against Boston in the next game. Then had four points in eight games - all against Buffalo (a PPA and a goal with Voarcek assisting) and Florida (two fourth line points).

 

Seven points, not even half from the "fourth line," five against non-playoff teams.

 

Completely agree about Schenn, but sometimes you need to take the time to see what you have in a player and allow them to develop into a role. A guy at 22 is one of those places where that approach is commonly taken.

 

A guy at 34? Not so much.

Who cares what teams they came against or if they were on the PP? The demotion clearly lit a fire under his ass. 4th line minutes and PP duties was working for him. Berube never should have moved him from that spot.

I can agree with you about Schenn needing more time, but like moving Vinny from the 4th back to the 2nd, moving Schenn from W to C, to W again is on the coach. 

Both of these situations are. I like Berube, but Vinny didn't force anyone to do anything and neither did his sheer presence. Both Vinny and Schenn have struggled at times during this season, but in the whole "Schenn can't be our 2nd line center" argument, that's primarily on Berube.

Well, in a capped league it certainly does matter what guys are making. A $4.5M "hole" is a much bigger problem than a $1.1M "hole."

 

He's Branko Radivoievic (9-14-23 in 88 games for Flyers; Raffl 9-13-22 in 68). You've got to have steady, productive guys pulling down $1-$2M if you're going to have room for the $8.75M superstars.

 

The Sabres expected Leino to be a first line center for them. Why? I have no freaking idea. But that, along with his steep drop in production when paired with the Sabres' vaunted 3/4 lines, has certainly hurt that team's compete level.

 

If Raffl doesn't pan out, there's not a whole lot ventured and not a whole lot lost.

 

That said, I expect him to be around a 10/20 guy.

If Raffl doesn't pan out, you still have to replace him regardless of how much money he's making. We're talking about a guy who has played on all 4 lines, in multiple situations, and at at least two different positions. If he can't do that next year, that's a blow and it's not a blow because of how much money he's making, but rather a production standpoint. 

I understand what you are saying. I agree with what you are saying that it will be less of a cap issue if he does fail, but cap/production issues aren't always connected.

If he's a 10/20 guy and continues his excellent all-around play, he'll quickly become one of my favorite players.

Yes. Look no further than Chicago with the way Toews, Kane, Hossa and Sharp are constantly moved around, often many times within games. I've often had the same reaction as you on the whole chemistry thing, but nowadays players are all so coached to play a certain way that it almost doesn't matter. 

Chicago is also Chicago and we are, well let's just say we're not them.

Then to rephrase: "His presence is influencing decisions to play players out of position"

 

He's making $4.25M. He's got "reputation". There's a reason Berube keeps trying to "fix" the scoring problem by moving him back up to the second line. They keep hoping that he will magically emerge - which is actually a better bet than, say, putting an untested kid straight out of juniors into the playoff fray.

 

But it still, as MadDog points out, puts into stark relief that the entire VLC experiment has been an egregious mistake.

1. Schenn hasn't exactly blown the league away whether he's played at wing or center. If he was so damn good he'd claim the position and force the coaches to play him there.

2. Both Schenn and Vinny have played out of position. I don't know the exact numbers of who played what position and how often, but Vinny has played wing a lot, if not the majority of the time:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2012562-why-vincent-lecavaliers-move-to-4th-line-was-good-for-the-philadelphia-flyers

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/skate-update-flyers-move-lecavalier-4th-line

3. Vinny was having success on the 4th line and Berube chose to move him from that spot.

This isn't a Vinny problem. This is a Berube, Schenn and Vinny problem. Plenty of blame to go around here.

Well, the line juggling I kind of understand. VLC is not performing up to the expectations, so the coach is trying different things. It kills any continuity and brings havoc into the lineup, but at least I understand that part. The coach's job is to find combinations that breed the best results.

 

The problem I have with the whole VLC situation is the very fact that he is even here in the first place. There was zero rationale or justification to buy out one over-the-hill, washed up, costly center only to bring in the other, who may be just a tiny bit more skilled, while failing to address the most glaring issue - the defense.  I don’t blame Vinny – he is what he is. Someone suggested in earlier threads that he is sabotaging the performance.  I find this totally ludicrous.  Why would he do that?  What is there for him to gain by dogging it?  He simply doesn’t have much left or perhaps doesn’t fit into how Berube wants his team to play.  Whatever the case may be, it’s not working… and the depressing reality is, he is here for the next 4 years.

 

The management of this team has to answer for these gross miscalculations and mismanagement of gigantic proportions. If anybody is subotaging the team it's this General Manager.

VLC is hardly the biggest or only problem on the team right now. He has exactly one less point than Giroux, who I freely admit has been taking a beating, but also hasn't done much himself. He has exactly the same amount of points both Hartnell and Simmonds and as many goals as them combined. Schenn and Couturier (who is a nice player, but Jesus he's borderline useless offensively) haven't done much either. The only forward who looks like he's actually trying (most of the time) is Voracek. There's a lot of guys who aren't chipping in.

I know why juggling the lines happens, but it's not working, and is excessive. It's not "something different" when you do it all the time.

That was why no one here was sorry to see Leino go.

 

Raffl is signed at $1.1M per for the next two. If they'd kept Leino at that, almost everyone would have been fine with that.

 

$4.5M? What kind of an idiot takes a guy making $8XXK and bumps him North of $4.5M based on one season?

 

Never mind, answered my own question...

It doesn't matter to me how much Raffl is making if he ends up pulling the kind of Houdini act like Leino did. It might hurt the cap less and all, but at the end of the day if you can't play you can't play. I just hope he sustains. Seen too many of these guys come and go.