Bobs not as bad as people think....

[aziz]

As someone else pointed out, quigly is a hit and run poster as of late.

what's this "as of late"?

[doom88]

what's this "as of late"?

Me trying to be nice. Guess it isn't really working.

[bryanc]

I tried to post this in Quiqly46 thread, but I have recently entered the dark ages when it comes to internet speed and my ability to even log on here, let alone post is greatly hampered.

That said, in a recent thread started by Quigly, he was on his whiplash box of punting Breezy and Bobsky.

Here are some things to ponder with Bobsky:

@quiqly46

I am just not there with Bobs. He has had THREE bad games all year. The two against Winnipeg and the clunker against Jersey. I think he has looked improved this year. Sharper on the play, quicker in his reactions (lateral movement), smarter with the puck (including puck handling), heck- even his glove hand has improved. Does he need work, sure. But look at this:

Throw out his two clunkers from the beginning of the year and the one from Jersey and here is what he has done:

Started 14 games. In those games he has gone 10-3-1 with a 1.77 gaa and a .935 sv pctg.

In addition, he has appeared in three games in relief for Breezy:

game 1> played 43 minutes and 1 goal allowed and got the win

game 2> played 13 minutes and 0 goal allowed (decision went to Breezy, a win)

game 3> played 33 minutes and 1 goal allowed (decision went to breezy, loss- against boston)

So, in 89 minutes of relief goaltending, he has allowed 2 goals.

So, yeah the two peg games where he allowed 5 goals sucked (though the first one he was hung out to dry and that was the ok shoot 'em corale 8-9 loss) and the jersey game sucked. But when I look at the rest of his body of work this season I still see allot of potential for a very good #1 goaltender.

Snider crapped the bed on this one. Should have signed Vokoun for 1 or 2 years and let him and Bobs platoon until Bobs is ready to handle the reigns. Vokoun posted his 4th shutout tonight and is 2.47 gaa, .920 sv pctg and a .608 win percentage the year.

I think he has lots of pentetial, but he has to work on his angles. He's starying to look like Sergei Boucher out there -- one moment he'll make a great save and the next let in a crappy-angle goal like the first one from the Rangers. Time and time again he doesn't make the save that keeps them in the game.

[doom88]

I strongly disagree. The D can't give shooters free shots from the opposite post when the goalie needs to secure the near side post. Team effort in that instance.

[ruxpin]

Bob is a backup = Nitty.

That is all.

[doom88]

So you want to give up the prospect of developing Bob why? What route do you suggest instead?

[ruxpin]

So you want to give up the prospect of developing Bob why? What route do you suggest instead?

Hi Doom,

Hard to tell on here sometimes. Was that to me?

Don't give up developing Bob, but he's a career backup. We need to work on getting a starter if Bryz isn't going to be it, because Bob won't be.

[idahophilly]

Last year was a case of mis-management by Lavy with the crazy rotation of Bob/Boosh. Hasn't been that great this year either. That's by far Lavy's biggest weakness as a coach IMO.

[ruxpin]

Last year was a case of mis-management by Lavy with the crazy rotation of Bob/Boosh. Hasn't been that great this year either. That's by far Lavy's biggest weakness as a coach IMO.

Agreed.

[idahophilly]

If we can see it as amatuers, why can't they?

[doom88]

Hi Doom,

Hard to tell on here sometimes. Was that to me?

Don't give up developing Bob, but he's a career backup. We need to work on getting a starter if Bryz isn't going to be it, because Bob won't be.

Yes it was to you, and thanks for the response. As there aren't exactly a lot of elite goalies magically available, I wonder who the Flyers could possibly bring in? I sincerely think Bob will better than Bryz (at the highest point in his career, and I know there were good moments). Bob has his head on straight, works hard, and constantly improves. No one will mistake his potential for Carey Price, but even Price took a few years before he got to 'that' level.

I can't say with any degree of certainty that Bob will be a starter, bust/flash in the pan, the best Russian goalie ever, or any point in between. It depends too much on coaching, team style, and management by the head and goalie coaches. I am probably too optimistic, but at least there is a goalie with potential in O&B for once in a long time. I will admit I have hope for Bob, justified (imo it is) or not.

[ruxpin]

Yes it was to you, and thanks for the response. As there aren't exactly a lot of elite goalies magically available, I wonder who the Flyers could possibly bring in? I sincerely think Bob will better than Bryz (at the highest point in his career, and I know there were good moments). Bob has his head on straight, works hard, and constantly improves. No one will mistake his potential for Carey Price, but even Price took a few years before he got to 'that' level.

I can't say with any degree of certainty that Bob will be a starter, bust/flash in the pan, the best Russian goalie ever, or any point in between. It depends too much on coaching, team style, and management by the head and goalie coaches. I am probably too optimistic, but at least there is a goalie with potential in O&B for once in a long time. I will admit I have hope for Bob, justified (imo it is) or not.

Well, keep the faith because Bob is probably the best option we have right now. Although I do think (hope?) that Bryz will be better next year.

In any case, calling Bob a career backup and answering the question "who else do we bring in" are entirely two different exercises. Bryz and Bob are it, and I don't see how any other options are possible. I suppose they could Mogilny Bryz, but that would be a horrible mistake. Short of that, I don't think you can spend anymore salary on that position.

Best guess is you shore up the defense and hope it's enough to compensate for only average, inconsistent, goaltending.

I cannot believe Flyer fans STILL have to talk about this. Years and years of the front office not trying, then they go out and sign a "top flight" goalie only to find out they've bought a grounded SST. And here we are...

[radoran]

Bob's 4-4, 3.33, .891 since the first of the year.

Bryz is 5-3-3, 2.29, .920

Maybe it's not just the goalie.

[Vanflyer]

@ruxpin

Why do you say Bobs is a career backup- because he has not developed into a starter yet, of that is the ceiling for which you see his potential.

The most troubling thing right now is the team is not playing confident in front of either goalie.

I am definitely having to eat a little crow with the timing of my bobs post and his inability to perform well enough to win.

I would have loved to made a play for Schneider last summer or even now. They have a big dilemma in Vancouver.

[radoran]

I would have loved to made a play for Schneider last summer or even now. They have a big dilemma in Vancouver.

I think we need to take into account that Vancouver was in the Final last year. The team in front of their goalie - be it Luongo or Schneider - makes a great difference. I don't think Schneider in Columbus is the goalie he is in Vancouver. Nor, for that matter, do I think that Sanford is necessarily some sort of goaltending prodigy just because he put up a good streak for the Blue Jackets.

The Flyers are in need of a team concept that includes the defense and goalie. Right now, IMO, they have one that relies on an impenatrable backstop. Again IMO, if they had Lundqvist back there - and Bryzrovsky is no Lundqvist - then King Henrik would have been lit up many times this season.

Howard/MacDonald gains in GAA just by having Lidstrom in the lineup. Lundqvist with the Rags' system - much like Bryz in Phoenix.

We need a coach who can adapt to the pieces he has. Maybe Laviolette can be that. Maybe not. But the Flyers seem to have a talent in insisting that this square peg just HAS to fit into this round hole...

[Vanflyer]

@radoran-

Good points on Schneider, though I do really still like him and think he is a #1 goalie and one that you could build a team around.

You raise interesting points in the coaching style of Lavi (run and gun / puck pursuit) vs. a Hitch defense first approach. It seems that Lavi really wants to exploit the speed of the Flyers and thus he likes that run and gun style to always push the puck- yet that seems to bite them allot (especially recent) when they get caught in turnovers and bad coverage.

[ruxpin]

@Vanflyer

I just think it's his ceiling.

[ruxpin]

@radoran

Not sure about the sqare peg/round hole thing. I get what you're saying, though, and it's certainly possible.

I just don't think they have the defense. They have their best defenseman on the shelf. They have another really good defenseman who is having a pretty good season but who is on the backside of his career. After that? I cannot say I am impressed. Mezz, Carle, and Coburn are all simply okay but inconsistent. With Pronger being out, they're all probably a notch above where they should be in terms of responsibility and ice time. Then you have a rotation of rookies and Lilja. Again, the rookies are going to show signs of being good but also be inconsistent. The problem is that they are all consistently inconsistent at different times, so you have the incessant breakdowns, lapses of coverage, and flat out bone-headed decisions we're seeing.

In the meantime, you have forwards simply leaving the zone or moving for the breakout entirely too quickly. I'm going to chalk that part up to Lavy's system and an example of your square peg/round hole thing. Since they have inexperienced or only average d-men out there, they need the forwards' help. The "system" is built for run and gun, so they're not giving that help.

As you said, any goalie is going to suffer on this team. In the Ranger game, Bob made absurd stops early, but since you cannot do that all game, he left in a couple and right away "eh Bob doesn't make the big save." Is there any rule about playing with 4 skaters and two goalies? Because short of that, until they fix the defense, neither goalie is going to look all that good.

[radoran]

@radoran-

Good points on Schneider, though I do really still like him and think he is a #1 goalie and one that you could build a team around.

I'm not "against" Schneider, but the team in front of you helps a lot.

You raise interesting points in the coaching style of Lavi (run and gun / puck pursuit) vs. a Hitch defense first approach. It seems that Lavi really wants to exploit the speed of the Flyers and thus he likes that run and gun style to always push the puck- yet that seems to bite them allot (especially recent) when they get caught in turnovers and bad coverage.

What I'm saying is that I would like a coach that looks at the many and varied talents of his team and devises a system to fit them. Not a guy who has a system and demands that his players buy into every aspect of it for it to work.

I'm not saying Lavi is by definition in the latter camp, just that he has a proclivity towards an offensive scheme which leads him to want to use the obvious asset of the team - speed. I don't know that it adequately addresses the defensive lapses which result.

That said, I do think that many "systems" are overblown. I think Hitchcock emphasizes defensive responsibility, not necessarily a "defensive system." You can have a defensively responsible team that still has an offensive bent. I think the Rangers are in that group at this point. And I don't think that they are running the same "system" that Tortorella used when he had VLC and MSL in their primes.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Bob's 4-4, 3.33, .891 since the first of the year.

Bryz is 5-3-3, 2.29, .920

Maybe it's not just the goalie.

it is definitely not entirely on the goalies. however, they are not rising up to the occasion to steal any games. would be nice if they could get a few in there given their combined salaries and supposed talent level. people were clamoring that bob was our best option and if we only let him be the #1 guy this year...

well, he's gotten enough starts to prove himself and he has done that... he's proven himself as a very young goaltender who has talent and promise, but is def not a starter in this league right now. for all of bryz faults, he's proven that he can be a proven starter in this league. let's just hope he can get back to that level.

[radoran]

I just don't think they have the defense. They have their best defenseman on the shelf. They have another really good defenseman who is having a pretty good season but who is on the backside of his career. After that? I cannot say I am impressed. Mezz, Carle, and Coburn are all simply okay but inconsistent. With Pronger being out, they're all probably a notch above where they should be in terms of responsibility and ice time. Then you have a rotation of rookies and Lilja. Again, the rookies are going to show signs of being good but also be inconsistent. The problem is that they are all consistently inconsistent at different times, so you have the incessant breakdowns, lapses of coverage, and flat out bone-headed decisions we're seeing.

If Pronger's out there, then the entire team is different. The system is built to have Chris Pronger back there. It's the only way, really it could work.

Imagine Detroit's D and offense without Lidstrom back there for half the game?

They lost Pronger, declared him shut down for the season, and apparently made few adjustments more than moving people on the depth chart.

In the meantime, you have forwards simply leaving the zone or moving for the breakout entirely too quickly. I'm going to chalk that part up to Lavy's system and an example of your square peg/round hole thing. Since they have inexperienced or only average d-men out there, they need the forwards' help. The "system" is built for run and gun, so they're not giving that help.

As you said, any goalie is going to suffer on this team. In the Ranger game, Bob made absurd stops early, but since you cannot do that all game, he left in a couple and right away "eh Bob doesn't make the big save." Is there any rule about playing with 4 skaters and two goalies? Because short of that, until they fix the defense, neither goalie is going to look all that good.

For much of the season, people have posited that the scoring has overcome the goalies' missteps. For me, the scoring has overcome the skaters' defensive lapses more often than not.

As for the goalies, Bryz is 5-3-3, 2.29, .920 since the start of the year. I'll take that. But in half of the losses, the Flyers haven't scored more than two goals. In two of the OTLs the team managed a total of one goal and they have just one shootout goal in the three OTLs.

You don't run-and-gun teams out of the playoffs. You get run out more often than not.

IMO, if they go into the playoffs running the "system" they are now, they will not get past the first round.

[ruxpin]

it is definitely not entirely on the goalies. however, they are not rising up to the occasion to steal any games. would be nice if they could get a few in there given their combined salaries and supposed talent level.

I don't disagree. On the other hand, I don't know that we're giving them the opportunity to "steal" any games. It would be nice if they cut down on the goofy goals, but other goalies give up goofy goals on occasion (whatsisname last night in Detroit, for example) and their team rallies around them and overcomes it rather than using it as an excuse to lose. But with the incessant bumbleF**king in the defensive end, bad decisions with the puck, bad decisions without the puck, lousy coverage, forwards leaving too quickly, etc., you can have "steals" like Bob did early against the Rangers the other night and it doesn't matter. There's really only so much a goalie should be expected to steal. With this defense, it would amount to more than just stealing. It would be felony grand theft.

well, he's gotten enough starts to prove himself and he has done that... he's proven himself as a very young goaltender who has talent and promise, but is def not a starter in this league right now. for all of bryz faults, he's proven that he can be a proven starter in this league. let's just hope he can get back to that level.

Agreed.

[Vanflyer]

@radoran

I agree with you on the "system" being overrated and really is more about accountability and a stylistic thing. I remember the teams pre-lavi, they still had problems picking up their assignments in the d-zone and just flat out not working hard on the back check.

The thing that I always look for- regardless of "system" is are they working as a 5 man unit. This always seems to bite the Flyers the last few years regardless of coach and system. Always too much separation between the d and forwards, particularly in transition.

[radoran]

it is definitely not entirely on the goalies. however, they are not rising up to the occasion to steal any games. would be nice if they could get a few in there given their combined salaries and supposed talent level. people were clamoring that bob was our best option and if we only let him be the #1 guy this year...

well, he's gotten enough starts to prove himself and he has done that... he's proven himself as a very young goaltender who has talent and promise, but is def not a starter in this league right now. for all of bryz faults, he's proven that he can be a proven starter in this league. let's just hope he can get back to that level.

The problem with developing Bob isn't that he's still improving, it's that Bryz has a nine-year deal. It's not like Bob's going to "ascend" with that in the way.

The best option, IMO, was to obtain a Vokoun/Nabokov type for a 2-3 year period. Sort of like it would have been better to give Timonen the C backinnaday to provide a transition (and training) for Richards.

Bryz *is* playing "at that level" rightnow. 5-3-3 isn't world-beating, but 2.29/.920 isn't chopped liver and in the three OTLs, the Flyers were shutout in one (in which Bryz posted a SO), scored one goal in another and managed a grand total of one goal in three shootouts (the third was the Boston game).

If we're going to flay Bryz for his failings - and I'm not saying he hasn't deserved it at times - then we can acknowledge when he's doing a good job.

[radoran]

@radoran

I agree with you on the "system" being overrated and really is more about accountability and a stylistic thing. I remember the teams pre-lavi, they still had problems picking up their assignments in the d-zone and just flat out not working hard on the back check.

The thing that I always look for- regardless of "system" is are they working as a 5 man unit. This always seems to bite the Flyers the last few years regardless of coach and system. Always too much separation between the d and forwards, particularly in transition.

It's really one thing I noticed watching the Sabres more often - people can justifiably question Ruff, but more often than not I see a squad that's at least playing as a five-man unit on the ice.

The Flyers consistently have more talent than most teams, but they aren't the best at being a "team."