FLYERS SIGN WEBER TO MASSIVE OFFER SHEET

[hf101]

radoran posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 12:46 PM

Fanatic V3.0 posted: I understand the first part and also understand that kind of money to a guy like that may mean more to him, but do you really think atheletes of all people are going to say "I'll pas" to free money for donig nothing? Regardless of whether they need it or not?

If Shea Weber is still playing at a high level at 37, why wuld he retire and why wold the Flyers want him to?

If he's won several Cups, a handful of Norrises and doesn't have the burning desire at 37, 38, 39 or 40 - he can comfortable walk away.

Again, I don't think he would walk away from $21M if he was getting $7M apiece for his last three seasons, but he's slated to make $1M in those years for a Very Simple Reason and it's not, in my humle opinion, that that's his "value" at that age (Jagr and Selanne just got $4.5M each).

[hf101]

Polaris922 posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 2:55 PM

@ @

I'm not arguing the fact that Holmgren holds the strong hand here... I'm just wondering if Nashville ownership doesn't take huge steps to match the offer sheet because if they don't their franchise could be done for anyway. If they weren't making really any money before, how will it be now if Suter AND Weber have disappeared? The fan base will go totally nuts, and attendance will drop drastically, no matter what young talent may come in for Weber's departure. So many analysts are pointing at this being the make or break point for the Preds... if they're right, I would imagine the ownership is looking at this as a death knell if they don't match it. They may have to borrow money or whatever.. I don't know much about the Preds ownership, but it sounds pretty desperate. Honestly this could sink the franchise either way. Which side of the coin do you want to gamble on?

I understand Holmgren did what he thought best for his club's chances to win. I respect that. At the same time, I loathe big markets destroying little markets. The new CBA will most likely address this, but if Nashville's team folds as a result of the dealing that takes place here, that would be something he should be ashamed of precipitating. Not entirely his fault, but I think a lot of Philly people AND Pittsburgh people grew up as blue collar, stand up for the little guy type people. And though the purely business side of me recognizes the shrewdness of the move, the other side of me feels bad for Nashville and wants Holmgren to choke on this deal somehow.

[hf101]

jammer2 posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 3:06 PM

@ With this new CBA pending, this could actually be the last time the Flyers/Comcast get to flex their corporate muscles regarding cash flow. I don't blame them one bit. In fact, they are doing the league a favour...if an entire franchise rests upon the signing or not signing of *one* particular player, that franchise should not be there in the first place. It's foundation is fundamentally flawed.

[hf101]

radoran posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 3:21 PM

@ Jammer2 posted: With this new CBA pending, this could actually be the last time the Flyers/Comcast get to flex their corporate muscles regarding cash flow. I don't blame them one bit. In fact, they are doing the league a favour...if an entire franchise rests upon the signing or not signing of *one* particular player, that franchise should not be there in the first place. It's foundation is fundamentally flawed.

It's part of putting an investment into an area for long term gain vs. short term resutls.

And the franchise itself didn't rest on solely signing Weber but in keeping at least one of the pair.

I'm not absolving Nashville for how they've handled things. They botched it worse than Buffalo handling Briere/Drury. And they may need to move as a result because the Predators haven't had 40 years to become part of the landscape as the Sabres have in Buffalo to survive boneheaded moves like this.

But IF you are the NHL and are among the NHL owners who agreed with the whole expansion/national move that brought hockey further South, Nashville is an example of it working and being destroyed by bad management.

Move the Preds out and put the Coyotes in there. Hell, just swap rosters. And hockey would succeed in Nashville and still fail in Phoenix.

[hf101]

trevluk posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 3:24 PM

Weber is the only person I've ever seen put the puck through the net when the net was not torn. I still have no idea how that happened!

I think John LeClair did it once. Shot a puck through the net just outside of the post and ended up in the net. It happened so fast it looked like a goal. It dId not tear the net and nobody could figure out what happened so the "goal" counted but later during instant replay they could see it actually went through the outside of the net. (memory is a little blurry but I think that is how it happened.)

[hf101]

Polaris922 posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 3:26 PM

@Jammer2 posted: With this new CBA pending, this could actually be the last time the Flyers/Comcast get to flex their corporate muscles regarding cash flow. I don't blame them one bit. In fact, they are doing the league a favour...if an entire franchise rests upon the signing or not signing of *one* particular player, that franchise should not be there in the first place. It's foundation is fundamentally flawed.

Appears more to me to be a failure in the CBA protecting small markets than major flaws on Nashville's part. YES they should have TRIED to lock Weber up last season instead of arbitration. But what if Weber didn't want to sign an extension thinking he's like to be a UFA in two years? Restricted Free Agency is meant to give the player some leverage but not more so than the Club who's invested in them. The CBA's intent when they did all this salary cap stuff was to protect small markets from big money thuggery... I would say when it comes to bonus money, they missed a spot Now we get to see what happens...

[hf101]

Bakanekimiwa posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 3:28 PM

@

@

I'm not arguing the fact that Holmgren holds the strong hand here... I'm just wondering if Nashville ownership doesn't take huge steps to match the offer sheet because if they don't their franchise could be done for anyway. If they weren't making really any money before, how will it be now if Suter AND Weber have disappeared? The fan base will go totally nuts, and attendance will drop drastically, no matter what young talent may come in for Weber's departure. So many analysts are pointing at this being the make or break point for the Preds... if they're right, I would imagine the ownership is looking at this as a death knell if they don't match it. They may have to borrow money or whatever.. I don't know much about the Preds ownership, but it sounds pretty desperate. Honestly this could sink the franchise either way. Which side of the coin do you want to gamble on?

I understand Holmgren did what he thought best for his club's chances to win. I respect that. At the same time, I loathe big markets destroying little markets. The new CBA will most likely address this, but if Nashville's team folds as a result of the dealing that takes place here, that would be something he should be ashamed of precipitating. Not entirely his fault, but I think a lot of Philly people AND Pittsburgh people grew up as blue collar, stand up for the little guy type people. And though the purely business side of me recognizes the shrewdness of the move, the other side of me feels bad for Nashville and wants Holmgren to choke on this deal somehow.

we'll see. like i said, i do feel for nashville and their fans. however, to a point. they did let it get to this point. they should have made signing weber and suter more of a priority when they couldn't have the rug swept out from under them. so, in that regard, i don't think homer deserves any blame. the blame is on the preds ownership for failing to secure the team with fair market deals. it's also with the league for not having a better CBA to address this type of situation. they might have realized that introducing a salary cap would cause teams to find loopholes. RFA seems to be one that's getting worked over on Nashville right now. it's completely within the rules though.

but, i agree... it's big market feeding on the little guys. in an ideal world, we wouldn't have this issue. but, we're far from ideal here.

[hf101]

radoran posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 3:32 PM

Bakanekimiwa posted: we'll see. like i said, i do feel for nashville and their fans. however, to a point. they did let it get to this point. they should have made signing weber and suter more of a priority when they couldn't have the rug swept out from under them. so, in that regard, i don't think homer deserves any blame. the blame is on the preds ownership for failing to secure the team with fair market deals.

It's a chicken/egg scenario to an extent. I in no way absolve the Preds management/ownership who look like prize #1 chumps here. But Suter and Weber wouldn't sign long term deals with the club because they didn't believe players would sign long term deals with the club.

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy from where I sit.

Again, Preds management are morons. Suter and Weber seem awfully Prima Donnaish to me.

[hf101]

mojo1917 posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 4:12 PM

As far as fair compensations goes, 4 first round picks is pretty a okay that means that Nashville will have at least 8 first round picks in the next 4 years, i think any GM worth an ounce of salt should be able to make some hay with those assets and be able to trade for a couple of guys to put butts in the seats while the scouting staff continues to find good players to rebuild around. Nashville will be a serious player at the draft for years to come.

[hf101]

radoran posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 4:22 PM

mojo1917 posted: As far as fair compensations goes, 4 first round picks is pretty a okay that means that Nashville will have at least 8 first round picks in the next 4 years, i think any GM worth an ounce of salt should be able to make some hay with those assets and be able to trade for a couple of guys to put butts in the seats while the scouting staff continues to find good players to rebuild around. Nashville will be a serious player at the draft for years to come.

Now, just imagine you're a fan of the Flyers who just lost Giroux and Couturier, but the UPSIDE is that you'll be "a serious player at the draft for years to come."

Renewing that season ticket package?

[hf101]

mojo1917 posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 4:45 PM

@

no, but that is not my team's lot. so i'm having hard time being empathetic towards what has turned into a pretty good hockey town's fan base. all i'm saying is there an abundance of good players in the Nashville system they scout well and now there is no one to block their top rated d prospects from the NHL. and they can trade the picks for a player or 2 to put asses in the seats.

i would also like to state this; for the foreseeable future i don't think there will be teams coming to pick off our young talent via offesheets, i read this on TSN and here from some folks, a few things will prevent that, 1: big daddy Comcast's deep pockets 2:the Flyers win, and are always looking to win it's not like this is a sinking ship and the team is on the brink of ruin in anyway 3: the Flyers and Comcast will maneuver to make sure the key players are "taken care of" before they reach the Weber and Suter/ Briere and Drury situation.

and don

[hf101]

Howie58 posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 4:46 PM

MadDog posted: I don't want to steer the thread in a different direction, but I am not sure I see it this way, Rad.

This team - the way it is constructed now and assuming this is the team that is going to start the '12-'13 season - has some question marks, with goaltending being the biggest one. I know this has been debated in excrutiating detail, and I know there are people who expect Bryz to play well this season, but I just don't see it... of course I am hopeful of being very, very wrong.

The defense, if it stays the way it is, is a bit suspect as well. Timonen is aging. He is aging fast. He was burned on many occasions last year and I don't know how that would change. Meszaros is coming back after a very serious injury and long absense. Coburn is a fine defenseman, but he's been fairly sporadic. And I don't hold my breath on Luke Schenn at all. Without a fast, flexible puck-moving d-man, this team will continue having hard time with transition.

And the offense got weaker. I actually expected JVR to finally break out with a full summer to recuperate and rest and was looking forward to him taking on a big role next year, but that's neither here or there.

I don't want to be negative, but I just don't know how people can consider this team being a legit contender. Based on what? What gives you so much confidence?

Greetings:

This is a reasonable post. I suspect Homer sees this move as the equivalent of a 5 no-trump bid in bridge...you do it because you and partner have a bare-bones shot a the game. Maybe he sees Weber as a glue to hold the unit together while the youngins mature and the D sorts out. We see eye-to-eye on Kimmo. I wonder if he will get through the season.

But this is a helluva saga. The board is a Christmas Tree.

Best,

Howie

[hf101]

radoran posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 5:05 PM

mojo1917 posted: no, but that is not my team's lot. so i'm having hard time being empathetic towards what has turned into a pretty good hockey town's fan base. all i'm saying is there an abundance of good players in the Nashville system they scout well and now there is no one to block their top rated d prospects from the NHL. and they can trade the picks for a player or 2 to put asses in the seats.

i would also like to state this; for the foreseeable future i don't think there will be teams coming to pick off our young talent via offesheets, i read this on TSN and here from some folks, a few things will prevent that, 1: big daddy Comcast's deep pockets 2:the Flyers win, and are always looking to win it's not like this is a sinking ship and the team is on the brink of ruin in anyway 3: the Flyers and Comcast will maneuver to make sure the key players are "taken care of" before they reach the Weber and Suter/ Briere and Drury situation.

Right, because you are on the winning end of the transaction, it's fine. I'm on the same "winning" end.

I'm saying it's not fair and it defeats the purpose of "competition" if you have teams that are simply unable - or unwilling - to put a competitive team on the ice. I don't want to see another Blue Jacket squad winning 14 games (or whatever) in a season. If I want the Washington Generals I can see the Globetrotters. If the league can't afford 30 franchises then GET RID OF SOME OF THEM. Or put real, equitable rules that allow for a level playing field and not one tilted towards a bunch of guys who have habitually flushed vast quantities of money down the toilet and covered it up with more vast quantities of money.

That's not talent.

No, the Flyers won't lose Giroux and Couturier - and the fact that you/we can't even conceive of it happening makes us much different than Nashville. Nashville doesn't have 40 years of hockey history, two legendary Cups, some of the most legendary players ever to play the game. They're trying to BUILD that - and unlike, say, Atlanta, I don't believe that the failure of the Predators would mean it's not a good "hockey market."

Trying to build a franchise - and a hockey market - when the building blocks keep being lost and stolen simply isn't possible. Imagine the Flyers if Bernie, Clarke, Leach and Barber could have been poached by the Rangers at a moment's notice. Imagine hockey in Philadelphia after 45 years and no Cups.

It wouldn't be like Buffalo.

[hf101]

mojo1917 posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 5:14 PM

@

does that mean that clarkie will never have been the GM ? or involved in front office decisions ? who knows what would have happened if the most legendary flyer player wound up fing up the Rangers instead of the Flyers

and i'm all for contraction too, columbus has never sniffed respectability and hockey in arizona just stupid.

i've been on record as liking the preds and the fanbase, and have argued that that is place where the NHL was doing well because it was a well run team, from a player acquisition and development perspective and the fans have gone to see them play.

i like nashville a lot. i also don't see where signing weber who will have his professionalism pushed to absurd limits after they way the front office has pooped the bed, "saves hockey" in nashville.

[hf101]

Bakanekimiwa posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 5:24 PM

radoran posted: It's a chicken/egg scenario to an extent. I in no way absolve the Preds management/ownership who look like prize #1 chumps here. But Suter and Weber wouldn't sign long term deals with the club because they didn't believe players would sign long term deals with the club.

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy from where I sit.

Again, Preds management are morons. Suter and Weber seem awfully Prima Donnaish to me.

agreed. excepte the prima donna part. i mean... they're doing what probably any of us would do. get the most for our services that we can. and work for a company that we believe is on a path to success. it seems weber determined that nashville was not on that path when they let suter slip away for nothing. and for that... i'd have to agree with him.

in that regard.. you're absolutely right. its' nashville's self-fulfilling prophecy because they didn't take the necessary steps to prove to the players they have the ability to back up their 'commitment to winning'

[hf101]

radoran posted:

Friday, July 20, 2012 6:10 PM

Bakanekimiwa posted: agreed. excepte the prima donna part. i mean... they're doing what probably any of us would do. get the most for our services that we can. and work for a company that we believe is on a path to success. it seems weber determined that nashville was not on that path when they let suter slip away for nothing. and for that... i'd have to agree with him.

in that regard.. you're absolutely right. its' nashville's self-fulfilling prophecy because they didn't take the necessary steps to prove to the players they have the ability to back up their 'commitment to winning'

You don't know what Suter turned down. Neither do I.

We don't know what Weber was offered.

If Weber was offered $110M/14Y by the Preds, without the $68M in bonus money - would he have signed?

How can you show a "commitment to winning" when your OWN PLAYER won't encourage HIS FRIEND, THE #1 FA F ON THE MARKET to play for your franchise?

What *hasn't* Nashville shown in a commitment to winning that built internally to back to back semis? They went for more scoring talent. They brought in the overseas FA "star." They made the trade for the character guy who's good on faceoffs and will drop the gloves. They signed the goalie to a long term deal.

What HAVEN'T they done!?!?

Let's jettison these nonsense loopholes through which big market teams - of which I am a fan - game the system. Nashville could pay $7.8M a season. They can pay $27M in this season. It's not the team without the commitment to winning in Nashville. It's the player being about the player first and walking out on his team for which he's wearing the C.

I call that a Prima Donna.

I'll be happy as a clam if Weber comes here (don't expect it will happen...) and still feel that the system needs changing.

And still feel this preening, game-the-system, I-don't-wanna-take-YOUR-mllions approach sucks.

[Bakanekimiwa]

what is going on here hf101? reposting all of our posts with the incorrect user names accredited!?

[doom88]

what is going on here hf101? reposting all of our posts with the incorrect user names accredited!?

He needs more tokens, haha!

[hf101]

@Bakanekimiwa

see Digity's blog

what I posted is better than nothing......(well maybe)

[Bakanekimiwa]

@Bakanekimiwa

see Digity's blog

what I posted is better than nothing......(well maybe)

well, you've got, at least, my name attributed to someone else's post and my post attributed to someone else's. it's very confusing.

[hf101]

well, you've got, at least, my name attributed to someone else's post and my post attributed to someone else's. it's very confusing.

try to be specific bak and I'll fix them. I think I fixed the one in question.

[Bakanekimiwa]

you got it. sorry.. read digity's blog. thanks for trying to recreate the thread...

[LegionOfDoom]

All these massive post over sheets of paper, offer signs.......Stay Thirsty My Friends

[fanaticV3.0]

I don't want to steer the thread in a different direction, but I am not sure I see it this way, Rad.

This team - the way it is constructed now and assuming this is the team that is going to start the '12-'13 season - has some question marks, with goaltending being the biggest one. I know this has been debated in excrutiating detail, and I know there are people who expect Bryz to play well this season, but I just don't see it... of course I am hopeful of being very, very wrong.

The defense, if it stays the way it is, is a bit suspect as well. Timonen is aging. He is aging fast. He was burned on many occasions last year and I don't know how that would change. Meszaros is coming back after a very serious injury and long absense. Coburn is a fine defenseman, but he's been fairly sporadic. And I don't hold my breath on Luke Schenn at all. Without a fast, flexible puck-moving d-man, this team will continue having hard time with transition.

And the offense got weaker. I actually expected JVR to finally break out with a full summer to recuperate and rest and was looking forward to him taking on a big role next year, but that's neither here or there.

I don't want to be negative, but I just don't know how people can consider this team being a legit contender. Based on what? What gives you so much confidence?

It depends on what rad means by legit contender. PO team? Sure, I can see that. Having an actual show at winning the Cup (as is)? Yeah, I can see why you think they wouldn't.

I don't disagree with you on Timonen. I love the guy, but they are going to kill him the way they did Desjardins if they keep playing him like he's still a legit #1. They gotta stop doing that with these older defenseman. See, I'm of the opinion that a top tier player past his prime can be useful if used the right way. But they keep playing guys like him, Pronger, and Rico like they're still kids.

I don't know what kind of year Bryz is going to have. I honestly don't have a strong opinion. It's certainly possible for a player to have one bad year - especially in a new city and even more so when that city is Philly - but he's on a very short leash with me this year.

But JVR? Lol, come on man. Losing old man Jagr hurts more than losing that waste of size and youth.

Edited July 25, 2012 by fanaticV3.0

[radoran]

Again, would you have put the Devils and Kings in the Cup Final before last season?

I think the Flyers - these Flyers - "on paper" are as good, if not better, than both of those teams.

I don't think they should - or will - play Timonen as a "true #1". He's not a shutdown guy (anymore), but he can QB a mean PP.

It will be defense by committee.