Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'm not saying its Crosby's fault burgher, but I can definitely see how people wouldn't identify with the "face of the NHL" and my point about inconsistency has more to do with generating more interest in the sport as a whole and thus generating more tv revenue like the NFL does. Just like a Pittsburgher to take a comment and make themselves into a martyr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Also Burgher, the hesitation to "suck it up and pay Weber" has to do with the threat of a work stoppage and the lack of ticket revenue for next season and the forseeable future as well trying to recover from a work stoppage. All the while you are still paying bonus money to Weber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 @B21good read...it is obvious that there things that need to be fixed. As i stated before in another post, Poile had a chance to let it not get this far and he screwed the pooch. Homer played within the rules and yes I would be pi$$ed if the situation was reversed, but then again I would be pi$$ed for management not locking up our star players. Poile was playing with fire and now he is getting burned by Ed's checkbook.I do agree that the playing field needs to be evened. The larger market teams will always have an advantage. Bettman should of thought of that before trying to expand the NHL into places it should not be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Its not all about just having more money @radoran, its more a case of neglect on the part of Nashville in conjunction with a heinous but legal offer from Philly.When Carle turns the puck over forwards don't just give it back to him, they score every time. They capitalize on his mistake. That is what Philly did. They capitalized on Nashville's turnover. Or a more up to date reference that is applicable they exposed Bryz.... I mean Nashville's five hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 @B21Give the casual hockey fan more credit. They know what they like and what they don't they don't like inconsistency in the rules. Most of the casual NHL fans are die hard NFL fans and they are going to compare to that. They recognize hypocrisy when they see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'm not saying its Crosby's fault burgher, but I can definitely see how people wouldn't identify with the "face of the NHL" and my point about inconsistency has more to do with generating more interest in the sport as a whole and thus generating more tv revenue like the NFL does.Just like a Pittsburgher to take a comment and make themselves into a martyr Uh huh. Unfortunately for the die hard fan, especiallly the die hard Crosby haters, he does generate more interest. He's hardly the "face" he once was. The ratings are abysmal no matter what...but they are better when he's around and healthy. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. At the end of the day there are several reasons when the NFL is and always will be more popular than the NHL. The big picture is fixing a system in which a successful small market franchise cannot keep it's own home-grown talent. Crosby is irrelevant here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Also Burgher, the hesitation to "suck it up and pay Weber" has to do with the threat of a work stoppage and the lack of ticket revenue for next season and the forseeable future as well trying to recover from a work stoppage. All the while you are still paying bonus money to Weber.Even more reason why it was kind of a 'slimy' offer. Make it guaranteed bonus instead of salary. Flyers can handle that if there is a lock-out. Looks like the Predators cannont. Not breaking the rules but it is exploiting the situation. The Flyers fan has every right to be happy about it but really can't get too upset at the criticism either. This isn't about some half-ass run franchise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Yes, well, Philly *wasn't* a "hockey town" in 1967. And wouldn't be a "hockey town" if New York and Montreal could have signed the Flyers best players away simply because they had more money.absolutely true @radoran, however the economics 40+ yrs ago are vastly differently than what they are today. The salaries back then are no where what we see today...but still a very valid point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Its not all about just having more money @radoran, its more a case of neglect on the part of Nashville in conjunction with a heinous but legal offer from Philly.It'a ALL about "having more money" - the ONLY thing that the Flyers offer has is $26M in bonus money that virtually everyone on here has acknowledged is specifically designed as a "poison pill" that "Nashville can't afford."Again, Shea Weber was GOING to make $7.5M this season regardless (RFA qualifier) - so this is NOT about whether or not "Nashville can pay Weber." Nashville DID, CAN and WOULD pay Weber (they already qualified him at $7.5M to retain his rights).It's ALL ABOUT the $26M in bonus money ($68M in total) and the competitive advantage that the handful of teams that CAN afford that have over the vast majority of teams that can't.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Uh huh. Unfortunately for the die hard fan, especiallly the die hard Crosby haters, he does generate more interest. He's hardly the "face" he once was. The ratings are abysmal no matter what...but they are better when he's around and healthy. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. At the end of the day there are several reasons when the NFL is and always will be more popular than the NHL. The big picture is fixing a system in which a successful small market franchise cannot keep it's own home-grown talent. Crosby is irrelevant here.Agreed, but I'll never miss an opportunity to take a jab at Crosby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Even more reason why it was kind of a 'slimy' offer. Make it guaranteed bonus instead of salary. Flyers can handle that if there is a lock-out. Looks like the Predators cannont. Not breaking the rules but it is exploiting the situation. The Flyers fan has every right to be happy about it but really can't get too upset at the criticism either. This isn't about some half-ass run franchise.I agree and have stated as much in several other threads. The door was left open and Philly came in and raided the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 This is where an idiot who lives in a large market would say that if they were such good fans they would pay whatever was asked to go watch their team. Yes and no. Simple economics. The bigger the market the more 'demand' there is. Large markets can afford to price tickets higher and not worry about demand. The bigger the population of the market, the better the chance of finding enough people that will pay the price you are charging.Just want to point out something... you link to an article that says that Dallas has the cheapest tickets in the league. Do you think that's because they're a small market? Dallas is the 9th largest city in the country, population over 1 million. I guarantee you that the Cowboys don't have the cheapest tickets in the NFL. Nashville has a larger population than Pittsburgh, yet the Pens can keep two of the world's five best players, plus an elite goalie. And win a Stanley Cup along the way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 @B21Give the casual hockey fan more credit. They know what they like and what they don't they don't like inconsistency in the rules. Most of the casual NHL fans are die hard NFL fans and they are going to compare to that. They recognize hypocrisy when they see it.Agree to disagree. The casual fan isn't going to drill down like the die hard would...i.e. - you won't find a casual Flyers fan arguing with a casual Pens fan about Matt Cooke vs. Chris Pronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Yes, well, Philly *wasn't* a "hockey town" in 1967. And wouldn't be a "hockey town" if New York and Montreal could have signed the Flyers best players away simply because they had more money.It'a ALL about "having more money" - the ONLY thing that the Flyers offer has is $26M in bonus money that virtually everyone on here has acknowledged is specifically designed as a "poison pill" that "Nashville can't afford."Again, Shea Weber was GOING to make $7.5M this season regardless (RFA qualifier) - so this is NOT about whether or not "Nashville can pay Weber." Nashville DID, CAN and WOULD pay Weber (they already qualified him at $7.5M to retain his rights).It's ALL ABOUT the $26M in bonus money ($68M in total) and the competitive advantage that the handful of teams that CAN afford that have over the vast majority of teams that can't..Then they SHOULD HAVE paid Weber when they had the chance to offer him 7.5 mil a season instead of lowballing him and taking him to arbitration. Now it has become all about the bonus money, to that I agree, but it could have been solved long before that. The risk of an offer sheet has always been present for Nashville and still they acted as if it were not a possibility.Again I say that if Weber is indeed the entire lifeblood of the organization then why did they risk the entire idea of signing him long term to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 @radoranWhy did they risk him being given an offer sheet? Why not lock him up for 3 more years? Why low ball him? Why wager him getting away upon the good graces and "unspoken ettiquete" of not tendering offers to RFAs?It was the perfect storm here and that includes the CBA uncertainty and risk of a work stoppage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Just want to point out something... you link to an article that says that Dallas has the cheapest tickets in the league. Do you think that's because they're a small market? Dallas is the 9th largest city in the country, population over 1 million. I guarantee you that the Cowboys don't have the cheapest tickets in the NFL. Nashville has a larger population than Pittsburgh, yet the Pens can keep two of the world's five best players, plus an elite goalie. And win a Stanley Cup along the way.There will be exceptions in the large market vs. small market arguement. Dallas being one of them. The problem to me is when a small market DOES draw well they still can't compete. If Nashville increased their ticket prices to equal the Flyers, would they still draw? If their arena were 2,500 seats bigger, would they still be at 97.5% capacity? if they charged the same for local TV rights as the Flyers, would they find a buyer? Maybe. Maybe not. With the Predators the answers are filled with uncertainty. Not the case with MOST large market teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 If Nashville increased their ticket prices to equal the Flyers, would they still draw? If their arena were 2,500 seats bigger, would they still be at 97.5% capacity? if they charged the same for local TV rights as the Flyers, would they find a buyer?If hockey was as popular in Nashville as it is in Philadelphia, the answer to many of the questions very well might be "yes". Toronto has a population of 2.6 million, Los Angeles has a population of 3.8 million. Which is the better hockey market? Which can charge more for tickets and advertising? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakanekimiwa Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Again, Shea Weber was GOING to make $7.5M this season regardless (RFA qualifier) - so this is NOT about whether or not "Nashville can pay Weber." Nashville DID, CAN and WOULD pay Weber (they already qualified him at $7.5M to retain his rights).this debate should end right here. then WHY DIDN'T THEY!? nashville left the door wide open for this to happen. that's what people here, like myself, are trying to convey. this is where, to me, the idea of 'fairness' goes out the window. simply put, Nashville blew it. Sooner, rather than later, should have been the M.O. for nashville's management. ESPECIALLY, since they are operating under ***more limited funds*** than other teams.*** again, i've heard they have a mega billionaire owner, so this might be a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 If hockey was as popular in Nashville as it is in Philadelphia, the answer to many of the questions very well might be "yes". Toronto has a population of 2.6 million, Los Angeles has a population of 3.8 million. Which is the better hockey market? Which can charge more for tickets and advertising?How do you measure popularity? They draw to near capacity from a much smaller pool of fans.What are their local TV ratings like?I am also looking at the population of the metro area...Philly - 6 millionToronto - 6 millionLos Angeles - 12 millionNashville - 1.6 millionWhat criteria are you using to say hockey in Philadelphia is more popular than in Nashville? I'm not disagreeing. Just want to know how this is being measured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyS Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Then they SHOULD HAVE paid Weber when they had the chance to offer him 7.5 mil a season instead of lowballing him and taking him to arbitration.Now it has become all about the bonus money, to that I agree, but it could have been solved long before that.The risk of an offer sheet has always been present for Nashville and still they acted as if it were not a possibility.Again I say that if Weber is indeed the entire lifeblood of the organization then why did they risk the entire idea of signing him long term toBingo. Nashville could have locked up Weber for 3 years and CHOSE NOT TO DO SO!!!Cry me a river.Hey, maybe they can take what they get from us & flip it to bring Nash to Nashville. He'll think they named the city after him or something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyS Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 How do you measure popularity? They draw to near capacity from a much smaller pool of fans.What are their local TV ratings like?I am also looking at the population of the metro area...Philly - 6 millionToronto - 6 millionLos Angeles - 12 millionNashville - 1.6 millionWhat criteria are you using to say hockey in Philadelphia is more popular than in Nashville? I'm not disagreeing. Just want to know how this is being measured.Um, TV ratings, supply & demand for tickets, jerseys sold . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Um, TV ratings, supply & demand for tickets, jerseys sold . . . .So give me some numbers. I already showed you that Nashville sells about as many tickets as they can. If you go by tickets sold, local TV ratings and merchandise sales then those flightless birds across the state win hands down and I know you aren't ready to concede that the Pens have better fans than the Flyers.Plus, stands to reason that a large market means more people which means a bigger pool of fans. If every fan of the Calgary Flames bought a jersey it would not come close the the number sold if every Flyers fan bought a jersey. Bigger market = bigger fan base (usually). Yet there is no way you can tell me Flyers fans are more rabid than Flames fans. See what I am getting at?My point is that hockey seems to be popular enough in Nashville that it's not an issue as far as their ability to sign Weber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 @B21So you think the only reason Nashville is a smaller market is because the size of their city is smaller? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The Penguins almost went bankrupt and moved to kansas City. How could one argue they are better fans than Flyers fans? Most of them only came out of the woodwork again to buy Crosby and Malkin jerseys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 How do you measure popularity? They draw to near capacity from a much smaller pool of fans.What are their local TV ratings like?I am also looking at the population of the metro area...Philly - 6 millionToronto - 6 millionLos Angeles - 12 millionNashville - 1.6 millionWhat criteria are you using to say hockey in Philadelphia is more popular than in Nashville? I'm not disagreeing. Just want to know how this is being measured.Not to be flip about it, but I don't think we need to be too scientific about this. I think common sense tells you that hockey is more popular in Philadelphia than Nashville. And more popular in Toronto than LA. If you want some numbers, look into Forbes valuation of NHL teams. The pie charts break down how much various things contribute to the overall value of the franchise:http://www.forbes.com/teams/nashville-predators/http://www.forbes.com/teams/philadelphia-flyers/http://www.forbes.com/teams/pittsburgh-penguins/http://www.forbes.com/teams/toronto-maple-leafs/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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