P.K Subban "ripped"

[jammer2]

@Polaris922  I think Subban's defense is a work in progress. He's a full 2 years younger than Letang and already has Norris in his back pocket. I think they will both break the 70 pt barrier this year. I think P.K would be a pt per game d-man (at least) if he had Malkin and Crosby on his power play though.

 

  I don't think either player has peaked per say, but Subban has a lot higher ceiling. The version we saw of Subban was light years ahead of his 2012 performance, and we could see him evolve even further, even into a great 2 way d-man. The kid is smart and is applying himself, who knows how good he can get?

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 Being able to skate back fast to cover your mistakes doesn't make you top 5 in my books.Not making those mistakes in the first place (or as many) is more important IMO. I know he can rack up points. And I know those points get inflated playing with Crosby and Malkin. But I've seen enough of him defensively over the last few postseasons to know he can hurt your team as much as help it. I believe you have too.

 

 Would I like Letang on the Flyers? Absolutely. We could use more offence from the backend. Do I want him on Team Canada? Not really. We've got the best forwards in the world. The best D. Goaltending is mediocre. We don't need points, we need defencemen who can play D. Chipping in points is a bonus. Not the other way around. As for a handful better, just on Team Canada alone Weber, Keith, Pietrangelo, Doughty, Seabrook, Subban, Staal.

 

 Now if I'm down a goal or two, that's a different story.

[Polaris922]

@jammer2

That Norris should have gone to Letang. Easily. Subban trailed him in every stat category, defensively as well, except for hits. We'll just disagree on ceilings.

@flyercanuck

I'll give you Weber, Keith, and maybe Doughty. Not the others. Certainly not Subban or Staal.

[JR Ewing]

Random thoughts...

 

-There is defensive benefit to controlling the puck at the other end of the ice. More, in fact, than being big, strong, tough, a good hitter, etc, and not having the ability in the offensive zone. It's pretty damned tough to score from your own end.

-There are better ways of looking at defense than how many hits a player had. In and of themselves, they're not suggestive of how good he is defensively. They reflect things like how much time a player spend in his own end and the style of defense he plays, and not necessarily the quality of it.

-Plus/Minus is really only relevant when comparing players on the same team, and if we consider the sort of competition the players faced, what kind of zone starts they had, etc.

-To that extent, Subban was sheltered more than Letang. Subban starts in the offensive zone 53.6% (highest among Habs D) of the time, while Letang's Zone Starts was 48.3% (middle of the pack).

-The Corsi Rel Quality of Competition (higher is better) for Subban was 0.026. Letang's was 0.696.

-Given the above two points: if Letang is so bad defensively, why did Michel Therrien not attempt to shelter him? Why didn't he give him as absolutely many offensive zone starts as he could against weak possession players? He didn't do that at all. To go with the comparison with Marc-Andre Bergeron, we couldn't find two players who were used more differently. In 2012, Tampa Bay gave Bergerson offensive zone starts 71% of the time against negative possession players.

-Re: who's better with the puck. I won't comment based on a skills/"saw him good" basis. It's muddy and cloudy territory, and usually says as much about our own bias as anything else. It's relevant to note, though, that the Penguins suffer a larger offensive drop when Letang's off the ice than do the Habs when Subban is off the ice. The Pens go from creating 1.24 GF/20 min with Letang on, down to 0.81 when he's off. For the Habs, it's 1.00 GF/20 down to 0.74.

 

JR

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 Canadas forwards should be able to provide offence aplenty. Doughty, Pietrangelo, Keith, Weber can all provide any needed from the back end. Staal is a rock defensively, as is Seabrooke. Subban grew up a lot last year with his gaffs defensively. Letang is still dishing em out.

 

 Like I said, if I thought we needed points from the D position (like the Flyers do) then I'd take him. I don't think Canada does though.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

 

 Canadas forwards should be able to provide offence aplenty. Doughty, Pietrangelo, Keith, Weber can all provide any needed from the back end. Staal is a rock defensively, as is Seabrooke. Subban grew up a lot last year with his gaffs defensively. Letang is still dishing em out.

 

 Like I said, if I thought we needed points from the D position (like the Flyers do) then I'd take him. I don't think Canada does though.

 

 

And I'll keep replying... you don't have to play defense when the puck is in the other net.   LOL   Letang however does both...  so well, in fact, that he's the single largest factor in wins/losses on the Penguins roster, despite Malkin an Crosby.  

[jammer2]

  If Letang and Duncan Kieth were the same age, I'd take Duncan every time. Might only get half the points, but Kieth is way more important to the Hawks.

 

 J.R, how does the corsi and other stats you mentioned look when comparing Kieth to Letang? 

[flyercanuck]

And I'll keep replying... you don't have to play defense when the puck is in the other net.   LOL   Letang however does both...  so well, in fact, that he's the single largest factor in wins/losses on the Penguins roster, despite Malkin an Crosby.  

 

 

 And I'll keep replying....hows that working out for them in the postseason? They've fallen well short of their expectations year after year after year. As a Flyer fsn preaching for lavy to change, I know too well offence does NOT win cups.

[Polaris922]

And I'll keep replying....hows that working out for them in the postseason? They've fallen well short of their expectations year after year after year. As a Flyer fsn preaching for lavy to change, I know too well offence does NOT win cups.

Oh I dunno... One for four in recent seasons. They didn't lose this past season because of defense though, ironically. It was a decided lack of offense! Lol