The Major Juniors are too powerful-period

[yave1964]

Scenario. The Tampa Bay Lightning are fighting for a playoff spot, short a forward they reach down to the minors and call up first round pick Jonathan Drouin from the minors where he has learned the tricks of the trade. He comes up in March and helping the club to the playoffs. Everyone is happy.

  Scenario: Steve Yzerman sends first round pick Drouin to the juniors for more seasoning because of the rule stating a player his age cannot be sent to the minors. Drouin as well is now lost to the Lightning for the season no matter what scenario.

  I think the whole junior hockey set up needs rethought. These are grown men, 18 and 19 being dictated to that they cannot play in the minor leagues  with a chance of an injury call up. The Junior leagues in hockey have entirely too much control of young men and of property that belongs to the NHL.

  If I were commissioner for a day this is the first thing I would change. And if the powers that be that run the Juniors threw a fit I would tell them tough thems the breaks. And you know what? they would accept it reluctantly because of no choice, the juniors would go on and the NHL and AHL would be better for it.

  Holding talent down in the major juniors simply to appease an outdated and quite frankly silly institutional rule is absurd. The major juniors would continue without this, the higher leagues would have more and better options. Not just a tweaking of the rules but a complete overhaul of the major juniors to allow these young men to play in the nhl RIGHT NOW is really the best option- period.

 

[yave1964]

I suppose I should have looked a little further down the page and seen the Laughton article, lol. oops. Anyway, this is my two cents on the subject.

[EDI-Flyer]

@yave1964

 

I fully agree with you. We have now come to a situation where the tail is wagging the dog. I would also say that the inability to place a talented junior in the AHL because of his age is ludicrous. I understand the CHL wants to protect its talent but the drafting club should have a right (along with the player) to decide where would be best for their development. 

 

Using your example of Jonathan Drouin, can anyone tell me that he is better served by another season in the Q against boys rather than a year in the AHL adjusting to the pro game? I doubt it. 

 

The crazy thing is that this just applies to the CHL. Come from collegiate hockey? US NDTP? No problem, place them where you want. The interests of the younger players are not being well served here IMO and the NHL should act.

 

That said the youngsters were the first thrown under the bus by the NHL and NHLPA in the last two CBA's...

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 The CHL develops most of the players that play in the NHL. All they ask is that IF a player isn't good enough to make their big club before the age of 20, that he be returned, so that the team that has spent 2,3,4 years of their time and effort and money developing that player can reap the rewards of all their work.

 

 Look at it this way. Last year my local junior team went on a nice run making it all the way to the OHL championship. A big part of that reason was because we had Mark Scheifele on the team. Is it fair to all us junior fans who have been paying to see this guy play to have him yanked off the team, say halfway through the playoffs because Winnipeg decides they want to give him a shot? Is it fair to a junior player who isn't physically ready to play against a bunch of men to get pushed into the AHL because his teams management don't have the patience to let him devlop another year in junior?

 

 I'll say it again...I've never heard anyone say their career was derailed cause they stayed an extra year in junior. (Sean Couturier likely would have developed his offensive game better had he stayed one more year.)

[EDI-Flyer]

Is it fair to all us junior fans who have been paying to see this guy play to have him yanked off the team, say halfway through the playoffs because Winnipeg decides they want to give him a shot? Is it fair to a junior player who isn't physically ready to play against a bunch of men to get pushed into the AHL because his teams management don't have the patience to let him devlop another year in junior?

 

I appreciate what you are saying FC, and I say this as someone who enjoyed watching Evander Kane play for the Vancouver giants, BUT:

 

I am concerned by the lack of consistency. If it is in the interests of CHL players to be returned to their clubs what of those players from US and Euro teams who aren't afforded that same protection? IMO it is not about player development so much as business and brand development for the CHL. And I have no problem with that but lets be honest about it. 

 

And while I agree that not all players are suited to make the jump to the AHL there are many players whose game would be enhanced by the chance of playing against men in a pro environment. Sean Monohan springs to mind. Calgary have decided to keep him rather than send him back to jr but he may have been better served by going to the AHL.

[yave1964]

@EDI-Flyer

 

Monahan came to mind for the reasons you mentioned. Now lets say he is struggling and could use a little time in the AHL this year to get his game together and a chance to work his butt off and come back later in the season it is not allowed. Ridiculous.

 

  And as a fan of US hockey not afforded the same rights I cannot see the point in two different sets of rules depending upon where you are from. The major juniors are treating these kids as chattel and should be forced to get into the 22st century.

[yave1964]

@flyercanuck

 

I respectfully disagree. The major juniors reap the financial rewards for developing these kids and if they did not they would not do it. As a fan, using Scheifele as an example, the Jets wound up just out of the playoffs. If they had been able to recall him, who knows, he catches fire, they sneak in as an eight seed, giving the club some regular season success to build on. As a fan of Juniors I see it no different than the AHL, the Wings recalled Nyquist from Grand Rapids last year depriving Griffin fans of watching him down the stretch. Scheifele is Jet property and absolutely should not be tied to his junior team for the remainder of the season. The rules allowing Major juniors servitude of the players are holding talent back as much as developing it, IMHO.

Edited October 24, 2013 by yave1964

[jammer2]

@yave1964  Under your proposal, the CHL would lose a lot of franchises. LIke it or not, they supply 65-70% of the talent to the NHL. If the CHL breaks down to the point they are not able to sustain things, then what do you do? If the Petes were struggling back in the 80's maybe you don't get Yzerman. It's easy to say they are to strong, much tougher to contemplate a scenario where they don't exist. They are literally the lifeblood of the NHL, you don't give them enough respect. How would players be developed if the CHL was not there? Would the NHL make another league to put their prospects in? Good luck with that, cause it would be impossible to sustain without the Canadian fan base who goes to watch these kids.

 

 The CHL should have more power, even more ability to retain their stars. If CHL season ticket holders get fed up, the whole thing breaks down and the NHL has no way to properly develop their young star prospects. For every player who gets sent back to the CHL who might be ready for a pro career in the NHL or AHL, there are literally a 100 who would benefit from developing in the CHL.....the end justifies the means in this case.

[yave1964]

@jammer2

 

I agree the CHL benefits the majority of players. Saying however that a Drouin who has been drafted by the Lightning cannot play for the team that holds his NHL rights IMHO is absolutely absurd. I do not see the teams folding, I believe it is a bluff. They deserve nothing, they make money or they would not be in the game. Current status quo is unfair to the NHL teams and the players who deserve a chance to move on. They are not servants of the CHL and should not be treated as such.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  The junior teams carry these players when they are 15, 16 and 17....when they hold promise and are not producing at full value....then, they get drafted and are plucked from the very teams that developed them,before they see a substantial return for all the developmental years. The junior teams get robbed of seeing them at full potential....and in the process, they are usually left without the ability to compete for a championship. If you were a season ticket holder, and watched this cycle continue again and again, would you renew you season ticket package?  That is what this all comes down to, the season ticket holders of the CHL *should* get some bang for their buck. If they are not happy and don't re-up their packages, the whole thing breaks down.

 

 

 Some of these junior teams are barely scraping by, they need their stars to fill the seats. It's the difference from losing lots of money to making a little money. There is a reason why droves of Europeans come over here year after year to the CHL, despite having all kinds of developmental leagues in Russia etc at their disposal....it's the best hockey league in the world for developing players....and should be given some respect.

 

 Sure, the power house teams of the CHL will always make money, but the weak sisters (and there is quite a few in every league) are the ones at risk here. The way you are talking, every team makes money hand over fist, and that is just not the case.

[yave1964]

@jammer2

 

What you are describing sounds eerily like the college program in the United States. And with adult men being allowed to turn pro and make a living do you know what? The college programs are still surviving and for the most part thriving in the US.

   To me, Juniors are just that, juniors. At 18 to tell an adult based off a bunch of BS that he cannot go to earn his living in the pros because when he was a kid somebody did him a favor that was MUTUALLY beneficial is wrong. Especially when the same standards for Canadian kids does not apply to those from Europe or the United States.

  I know you are passionate about your junior hockey. Millions of folks are. But taking a step back and looking at it objectively I hope you can see my point even if you disagree with it, IMHO to FORCE a man who can serve in the military and buy smokes to play Junior Hockey rather than play professional is wrong.

[flyercanuck]

@EDI-Flyer

 

 Monohan looks like he fits into the NHL.. Because the CHL is such a pipeline for talent to the NHL, they obviously have more pull than a junior team in the Czech Republic that has placed 2 players there in it's entire history.

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 The AHL ARE the farm clubs of the NHL. They are owned and operated by the parent clubs. Junior teams are not. The owner of the Barrie Colts isn't getting any money from NHL clubs unless they draft his player. But he already may have 3 years into this kids development. I really don't see the two leagues as similiar at all.

 

 And you don't think Scheifele benefitted from the playoff run the Colts had last year? He finally got the chance to put a team on his back for the first time in his career. The entire team looked up to him. If he'd been on the Jets he'd be just another guy, likely borderline. That experience has to ne positive.

[yave1964]

@flyercanuck

 

I believe the Jets would have been better served to have Scheifele on the big club and making the playoffs. not saying he would have been the final piece but they were only a couple of points out and he certainly would have been an upgrade over Machacek or Peluso. I think it is absurd that the juniors hold such sway as to keep him unavailable to the pro club. Sooner or later, sooner, I think, this will change. and it is long overdue.

 to me juniors should only hold the exclusive non NHL rights pre draft. if by mutual agreement the NHL team and major junior club agree to allow the player to continue to play there fine but if the NHL who is paying his salary wants him in the AHL or bouncing between NHL and the AHL they should have the right.

  the sanctimonious BS coming from juniors acting as it were a birthright to a players rights is going to end. it will in truth only effect a very small amount of players, the sky will not fall, and the players and the NHL will be better served.

[flyercanuck]

One of the reasons they brought this rule into effect is because some teams (cough Flyers cough) have idiotic gms whose impatience can ruin a kids career before it gets off the ground. Yo-yoing a kid back a forth between the leagues doesn't do anyone any good. Stability plays a big part in development. Knowing you'll be on a certain team for the year is not a bad thing.

 

 The hockey world is littered with broken dreams from guys who were brought up too early. And again, I've never heard a single player complain his career was ruined by an extra year in junior. That's gotta mean something, doesn't it?

[jammer2]

@flyercanuck

 

I believe the Jets would have been better served to have Scheifele on the big club and making the playoffs. not saying he would have been the final piece but they were only a couple of points out and he certainly would have been an upgrade over Machacek or Peluso. I think it is absurd that the juniors hold such sway as to keep him unavailable to the pro club. Sooner or later, sooner, I think, this will change. and it is long overdue.

 to me juniors should only hold the exclusive non NHL rights pre draft. if by mutual agreement the NHL team and major junior club agree to allow the player to continue to play there fine but if the NHL who is paying his salary wants him in the AHL or bouncing between NHL and the AHL they should have the right.

  the sanctimonious BS coming from juniors acting as it were a birthright to a players rights is going to end. it will in truth only effect a very small amount of players, the sky will not fall, and the players and the NHL will be better served.

 

 

 I don't think the system will change. Dave Branch is a pretty powerful guy (sorry for bringing him up fc...lol) with a lot of pull in the right places. It all comes down to the season ticket holders of the CHL....if they leave in droves, the whole system will break down...and THAT would be to the detriment of the NHL.

 

 The CHL rule does not need to be changed, but ya know what does, the ridiculous NCAA rules that allow a player to be stashed for 4 full years before his eligibility begins. What kind of crap is that? All this backwards rule does is allow kids to fall through the cracks and you get unprecedented FA battles over 23 and 24 year olds like Schultz and DeKeyser. If those kids went the CHL route, they would be the NHL 3-4 years earlier, but yet you're worried about a kid going back for one year? Does not add up from where I sit.

[yave1964]

@jammer2

 

  Really my big thing is there is absolutely no reason a kid cannot be sent back to Juniors and recalled by the NHL when they need the help due to injuries. It would not effect a half a players a year.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  As far as I know, a junior player can be called up if the parent NHL team experiences a plethora of injuries. I believe they call it a "emergency recall". Have not heard it being used for a while, but I'm pretty sure it exists.

[flyercanuck]

jammers right. There is an emergency recall if the parent club needs to recall a player. And of course they can always come up when their own junior clubs season is over.

[yave1964]

@jammer2@flyercanuck

 

Like Jammer said it is obscure and is never used. To me if an NHL team wants to recall a player sent to juniors no questions asked it should be allowed. Lets face it the NHL is the lifeblood of the OHL, anyone who believes it is the season ticket holders is deluding themselves. It really would have minimal effect, maybe Drouin in February when Malone or someone goes down, perhaps Laughton if the Flyers want a good look. And for what the Juniors get from the  NHL it should be allowed to happen, carte blanche no questions. It would really not hurt anything, the people who watch junior are gonna bitch and whine but still go, just like the Flyers and Wings still have fans regardless of record.

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 I can assure you junior teams with star players draw more fans than junior teams without star players. Just like any other team in any other sport.

[yave1964]

@yave1964

 

 I can assure you junior teams with star players draw more fans than junior teams without star players. Just like any other team in any other sport.

No argument there. I completely agree.

  I live in Ohio, not exactly a bastion of Hockey, some people think the Blue Jackets are still a rumor. Several years ago, the Wings drafted Brendan Smith out of Wisconsisn. I had honestly only been to one college hockey game in my life, but i wanted to see this kid play, i went to every home game the Wings played against the Badgers just to see him and gauge him for myself, i have family in Michigan, i planned a weekend around seeing him take on the Spartans. I can honestly say i watched him for the sake of watching him a half a dozen times after we drafted him, so i get that, star power draws fans. I was convinced he was the next Chris Chelios. I even watched him a few times in Grand Rapid so that i could say someday when he was inducted into the Hall that i knew it all along and i was a fan since before day one.

  That said, college sports in the States lose players all the time to the pros, yet the organizations go on and on. Drouin or Laughton or whoever could leave juniors right now and they would still thrive. I doubt a half a dozen players a year would be better served by playing in the AHL, Drouin being one IMHO with a chance for a call up at mid season if he busts his butt. I do not believe the sky would fall if some tweaking over elidgibility were to occur. I am not talking about full fledged exodus on your eighteenth birthday, but rules for the pro club, one player per team lets say allowed to play in the minors or be called up out of juniors at some point. At most 30 players involved, it would create more strategy for GM's, more discussion of what is going on in the juniors and who might get the call. It would cause excitement and a bit of a stir. Purists like Jammer and yourself may have apoloxy but juniors would survive if not outright thrive.

  By the way, Brendan Smith sucks. He broke my heart and i want my money back.

Edited October 26, 2013 by yave1964

[jammer2]

@yave1964  It all depends on the market, teams with a strong fan base, they will usually still draw decent despite having a down year. Some of the weaker teams really suffer without their stars. Sarnia for example had their attendance drop 30% after Stamkos left, they lost over a million dollars that year, which is not good in junior hockey.

[yave1964]

@yave1964  It all depends on the market, teams with a strong fan base, they will usually still draw decent despite having a down year. Some of the weaker teams really suffer without their stars. Sarnia for example had their attendance drop 30% after Stamkos left, they lost over a million dollars that year, which is not good in junior hockey.

A million bucks is a million bucks no matter who you are. So lets say the Lightning want to recall their player Drouin a financial compensation for his junior club could and should be arranged. It just seems so wrong to me that a 18 year old Girgensons learns the ropes at the AHL level last season but the option is not even available to a Laughton or Drouin. Double standards to compensate an outdated system seem unfair to the kids and the NHL teams. Major Juniors would scream to the high heavens because of loss of revenue (as any business should) but that could easily be worked out.

Edited October 27, 2013 by yave1964

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 Well as outdated and draconian of a system that it is...most players chose to go that route because it is the best at developing juniors in the world.