Take tips from the Eagles

[icehole]

What does everyone think of this?

 

                I hate the Eagles but they're doing it right.  Why can't the flyers take some tips from the Eagles?  The Eagles are a very average team that is benefitting from a superior system.  Nick Foles is the Antii Raanta of the NFL, their defense is a bunch of no-names and their receivers never did anything special before.  Yet, they get it done because Foles is throwing to wide open receivers and the other teams' receivers can't get open.

 

                What am I getting at here?  Why are the Eagles having success?  It's really simple if you think about it.  Instead of following what successful coaches have done in the past, Kelly decided he is going to do it his way.  He is creative and thinks outside the box no matter what everyone else thinks.  Instead of trying to fatten up his players by eating 25000 calories in a day and bench pressing 750lbs, he hired a nutritionalist and sports science guy.  Now they're drinking smoothies, doing proper conditioning, and getting sleep.  Instead of taking 40 seconds to get the play in and snap the ball, they are looking at signs and everyone know what to do.  The Eagles are flat out in better shape and wear out other teams.

 

                Why can't the flyers do the same thing?  If Berube thought outside the box, this group of players could play better than any team in the NHL that is just trying to follow the template of how to build a team that was laid out before them.  Instead of summering in sea isle and coming into camp in September, why can't they hire trainers to work out over the summer?  Why can't they get on a specialized diet to make them faster and stronger?  I make a small fraction of the amount of money they make and working out and dieting won't make me any more money or make me more successful.  Yet, despite taking care of an infant child, I'm in the gym every morning at 5am.  I eat well and drink a combo of spinach, carrots, cucumber, banana, pineapple, and berries in a smoothie every day.

 

                Instead of doing the same old plays every other team does (dump and chase, triangle, etc.) why not be creative?  If a point man takes a shot, put one guy in front of the goalie and a guy to either side of the goalie.  All three (or four) guys could jam at that puck until it squeezes through.  I know it sounds stupid but do other teams know how to defend it?  The Rangers do a thing where one guy stands at center ice while a winger skates as fast as he can up the walls.  The defensman passes it to the guy at center who usually has the defense converging on him.  All he needs to do is deflect it to the winger who is flying up the ice and he's gone past the defense.  Rick Nash did that perfectly the other night.  A creative coach could come up with a ton of new plays that will open things up.

 

                I guess it will stay a stupid dream though.  We'll just hope to be as good as Pittsburgh and Chicago instead of wanting to be so much better.

[Howie58]

icehole:

 

I like your thoughtful assessment. I don't enough about hockey systems to judge what in or out of the box thinking would be in this line of work. I don't know if collective bargaining agreements prohibit off-season training/nutrition counseling. You ask a great question, however, and that is the extent to which system outweighs individual or vice versa.

 

One dimension that you need to consider is how talent is brought to the table: Is it patient via draft or pall mall via trade.  Recent Stanley Cup teams have been built primarily via draft. The Flyers are trade-built. Talent aside, that may be an important "systems" question that dovetails with your read. 

 

Peace, and thanks for your insight.

 

Howie

[JackStraw]

I don't think you can really make the comparison. Football and hockey are completely different sports. The Eagles' new HC had a full training camp to teach his system. And the Eagles won their first game and then struggled. It's not like they set the world on fire right out of the box. Berube is doing the right thing in my opinion, but it takes time. He doesn't have the luxury of a week to prepare between games. In hockey you can't break every play down to the extent that you can in football, it's a much more fluid situation.

 

And do you know for a fact that the players don't train in the offseason? Do you know for a fact that they don't have people working with them on nutrition and diet? Just because you don't read about it in the Inquirer or Daily News doesn't mean that it's not happening.

[icehole]

As far as league and NHLPA rules go, I don't think the team can have organized meetings and or workouts but the same goes for the NFL.  You can however change the dynamic of your team by setting a standard for what is required homework in the off season, and if players don't buy in, we'll find players that will buy in to replace them.

I dont even want to strive to do what previous cup winners have done.  I dont care if we draft or trade.  In my opinion, most NHLers are just about at the same talent level.  The work ethic and system makes players better.  I want an organization that wants to make those previous cup winners look like a team from the '70s.

[flyercanuck]

I don't know cause I don't follow it that much....but 8-5 in what seems like a pretty mediocre (at best) division doesn't seem like anything groundbreaking to me.

[icehole]

I don't think you can really make the comparison. Football and hockey are completely different sports. The Eagles' new HC had a full training camp to teach his system. And the Eagles won their first game and then struggled. It's not like they set the world on fire right out of the box. Berube is doing the right thing in my opinion, but it takes time. He doesn't have the luxury of a week to prepare between games. In hockey you can't break every play down to the extent that you can in football, it's a much more fluid situation.

 

And do you know for a fact that the players don't train in the offseason? Do you know for a fact that they don't have people working with them on nutrition and diet? Just because you don't read about it in the Inquirer or Daily News doesn't mean that it's not happening.

I wasn't thinking of this year...this year is lost in mediocraty. I'm talking about moving forward.  The Eagles struggled early because they weren't conditioned yet and they had to learn a completely new system.  In hockey, you won't be able to diagram every play but you can try new things that nobody has done before.  I have an idea to replace pulling the goalie while down a goal or two but I'll save that for another day.

I don't know for a fact but when I see tweets every day about being here or there and doing this or that but I never see a tweet about going to the gym, I assume there's not much working out going on.  Its a shame the media for hockey is so lazy in this town...maybe we'd know more about their routines.  Also, there's always that picture of some of the guys on a boat or at the beach.  I don't want to brag but those guys aren't beating me in a flex-off.  They're better conditioned now then they were in the beginning of the year though.

[icehole]

I don't know cause I don't follow it that much....but 8-5 in what seems like a pretty mediocre (at best) division doesn't seem like anything groundbreaking to me.

Trust me, I would take any chance I can to bash the Eagles and football in general for that matter.  8-5 isn't amazing but its good when you started 3-5 and you have an average QB and average receivers.  They are now conditioned and used to the new innovative system.  They might (hopefully) stumble in the end but at least eagles fans have something to look forward to.  What do we have...2 stars and a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners with a boring bad defense bad offense system?

[JackStraw]

 

Trust me, I would take any chance I can to bash the Eagles and football in general for that matter.  8-5 isn't amazing but its good when you started 3-5 and you have an average QB and average receivers.  They are now conditioned and used to the new innovative system.  They might (hopefully) stumble in the end but at least eagles fans have something to look forward to.  What do we have...2 stars and a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners with a boring bad defense bad offense system?

 

 

I think you may be selling some Eagles players a little short. Whether or not Foles is average or as good as his stats say remains to be seen. Only time will tell. Desean Jackson is far, far, from average. I'm not a huge fan personally, I think he's too small to be a true #1, but the dude can play. He's one of the most, if not the most, explosive players in the NFL. And LeSean McCoy is arguably the best RB in the game. The Eagles have some real talent on offense.

[TedZep]

Two words: Pickle Juice

[icehole]

I think you may be selling some Eagles players a little short. Whether or not Foles is average or as good as his stats say remains to be seen. Only time will tell. Desean Jackson is far, far, from average. I'm not a huge fan personally, I think he's too small to be a true #1, but the dude can play. He's one of the most, if not the most, explosive players in the NFL. And LeSean McCoy is arguably the best RB in the game. The Eagles have some real talent on offense.

I cant believe I am actually discussing football on a hockey forum...makes me sick to my stomach.

Saying Desean Jackson is a talented player is like saying Eric Well wood is a talented player.  Speed doesn't equal talent but it does make you better in football than it does in hockey.  I always wondered why a guy like usain bolt wouldn't join the NFL as a receiver and make a boat load of cash.  Do you know how many touchdowns he would have!

McCoy is very good but how good was he under Andy Reid?  He wasn't as strong and conditioned plus his offensive line wasn't as strong and conditioned.  Also, the creative play calls open it up for him.

It all goes back to off season workouts and being creative.

[flyercanuck]

 

I cant believe I am actually discussing football on a hockey forum...makes me sick to my stomach.

Saying Desean Jackson is a talented player is like saying Eric Well wood is a talented player.  Speed doesn't equal talent but it does make you better in football than it does in hockey.  I always wondered why a guy like usain bolt wouldn't join the NFL as a receiver and make a boat load of cash.  Do you know how many touchdowns he would have!

McCoy is very good but how good was he under Andy Reid?  He wasn't as strong and conditioned plus his offensive line wasn't as strong and conditioned.  Also, the creative play calls open it up for him.

It all goes back to off season workouts and being creative.

 

 

 

I'm guessing a lot...or hardly any. Can he catch, or carry the ball? Bob Hayes proved you could make a football player out of a track star. Rinaldo Nehamia and  Jimmy "Oops" Hines proved you couldn't.

 

Bolt made $20 million in 2012. Can he make that in the NFL?

[OccamsRazor]

I'm guessing a lot...or hardly any.

 

 

Good point just because you can run fast doesn't mak you a good football player....i mean the NFL is a collection of the best players in the world, doesn't mean with full gear on he can still runroutes and even if he could can he do it well and then he still has to catch the pass.

 

Easier said than done.

 

To me the comparison would be a figure skater....yes he could be real fast on his skates and he could turn on a dime and all that but that doesn't make him a hockey player, doesn't mean he could put the gear on and still have good and and be able to use it to manipulate the puck up and down the ice.

 

Just my 2 cents...i mean if it was easy everyone would be doing it...right which is far from it in this case...

[Green Man]

How the hell are you a Flyers fan but hate the Eagles? 

 

Although I agree with your compliments of Kelly and his system/approach, I also think you are cutting the talent on this team way short.    This team has pro-bowl players on both sides of the ball and their only weakness are their safties.   Foles is playing out of his mind.  20 TD and 1 INT is not a fluke, dude is the real deal.  Did I mention they have the best RB in football?

 

It's not all Kelly - but he is part of it. 

Edited December 13, 2013 by Green Man

[JackStraw]

Saying Desean Jackson is a talented player is like saying Eric Well wood is a talented player

 

Um, Jackson has made All-Pro and two Pro Bowls. Led the league in yds/catch and punt returns. I like Wellwood for what he is, but he will never, ever, ever approach the kind of career as a professional athlete that Jackson already has. McCoy has already had two 1,000 yard rushing season and has a career yds/carry of over 4.5. He went to the Pro Bowl and was first team All-Pro in 2011. He's probably not as good a receiver or blocker as Westbrook, but he's a better runner.

[icehole]

Um, Jackson has made All-Pro and two Pro Bowls. Led the league in yds/catch and pnt returns. I like Wellwood for what he is, but he will never, ever, ever approach the kind of career as a professional athlete that Jackson already has. McCoy has already had two 1,000 yard rushing season and has a career yds/carry of over 4.5. He went to the Pro Bowl and was first team All-Pro in 2011. He's probably not as good a receiver or blocker as Westbrook, but he's a better runner.

Its obvious you know more than me about football.  That's one of many reasons football is a joke sport.  Track stars can be great receiver because it doesn't take too much skill to catch a ball.  

I'm not debating McCoy being a great RB.  He seems to be shining more this season though.  Isn't he the leading rusher in the league?

Sorry...this wasnt meant to be a football debate.

[JackStraw]

 

Its obvious you know more than me about football.  That's one of many reasons football is a joke sport.  Track stars can be great receiver because it doesn't take too much skill to catch a ball.  

I'm not debating McCoy being a great RB.  He seems to be shining more this season though.  Isn't he the leading rusher in the league?

Sorry...this wasnt meant to be a football debate.

 

 

I don't want to debate football here either, the only point is that as greenman said, the Eagles do have some serious talent on their team, and have for some time. In terms of elite talent the Flyers have Giroux and Voracek, but I don't think anyone considers either of them the best at their respective positions. So until the weaknesses on the roster are addressed, I think it's a stretch to think that just by coming up with some new PP scheme, or changing the players' diets, or something else "innovative", that they will be a better team next year.

[icehole]

How the hell are you a Flyers fan but hate the Eagles? 

 

Although I agree with your compliments of Kelly and his system/approach, I also think you are cutting the talent on this team way short.    This team has pro-bowl players on both sides of the ball and their only weakness are their safties.   Foles is playing out of his mind.  20 TD and 1 INT is not a fluke, dude is the real deal.  Did I mention they have the best RB in football?

 

It's not all Kelly - but he is part of it. 

I dont know much about football...I just don't see Foles being the real deal.  He might be a starter but just an average starter.  You can come back to this next year and shove it in my face but this is how I see it going down.

The Kelly had other teams on their heals and nobody has a book on Foles.  Of the highlights Ive seen, maybe 5 of those 20 TDs were because of Foles making a great pass.  I also saw about 5 TDs that were severly underthrown and maraculously were caught.  In the Oakland game, three of the TDs were from the defense falling down.  

They will make him their franchise QB and everyone will be excited but teams won't be underestimating him anymore and his luck is bound to change.  I don't really put too much stock in ints...how many did Farve have?  You have Ints if you take risks...Foles hasn't had to take risks but he will.

Im happy for you Eagles fans.  I'm just telling you what I see.  I see Kelly making the most of what he has but that isn't enough to be a major player in the league yet.

[icehole]

I'm guessing a lot...or hardly any. Can he catch, or carry the ball? Bob Hayes proved you could make a football player out of a track star. Rinaldo Nehamia and  Jimmy "Oops" Hines proved you couldn't.

 

Bolt made $20 million in 2012. Can he make that in the NFL?

I've never come close to making the NFL but I caught a football before...its not hard.  I caught a ball between my knees once and thrusted it up to my hands all in stride.  If I was fast, maybe I could have been something.

Football players that drop balls that are right in their hands make me laugh.

[JackStraw]

 I also saw about 5 TDs that were severly underthrown and maraculously were caught.

 

Well, it takes talent from the receivers to make those catches, right?

 

In the Oakland game, three of the TDs were from the defense falling down

 

That often means receivers running good routes. Not many db's in the league can cover Jackson 1 on 1, and Cooper is a big, athletic guy who will go after the ball if it's not right in his hands.

 

I don't know how good Foles will be, but he seems very smart and very poised. Two qualities a good QB needs. Vick is certainly a "better athlete" than Foles, and he's got a cannon for an arm, but he wasn't as good as Foles has been.

 

Apart from Mason, how many great plays have you seen from the Flyers this year? How much highlight reel worthy stuff? Not a whole lot. Not saying the Flyers don't have some talent, but if you watched the game against the Blackhawks it should be obvious that the Flyers have a ways to go just to be seriously competitive against top teams.

[flyercanuck]

 

I've never come close to making the NFL but I caught a football before...its not hard.  I caught a ball between my knees once and thrusted it up to my hands all in stride.  If I was fast, maybe I could have been something.

Football players that drop balls that are right in their hands make me laugh.

 

 

 

 It's not hard. It gets harder when you have guys faster and stronger than you also trying to catch or prevent you from catching it. Like I mentioned, there are track stars who attempted to become NFL players and failed.

 

And like I also mentioned...why would Bolt join the NFL when he can make more money as the worlds fastest man, and still be able to walk when his career is over.

 

 Watching a guy drop a ball is sad when it's how he earns his living. But I guess it's no different than a hockey player missing a wide-open net.