Giroux? And What to do next?

[radoran]

@radoran - eh, right around the same number of games as Tavares, MSL, Kessel, and Kane (not to mention others who are below him in pts):

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

You can always parse stats one way or another but I'd say looking at the big picture, Giroux is an elite player in the NHL.

Again. Certainly an impact player, I still don't see him taking over gamed or making Chris Kunitz outscore other elite players or making pascal dupuis into a threat.

Depends on one's semantic definition of elite, really.

Kunitz, again, has more points than Giroux this season and last.

Is Kunitz "elite"?

[doom88]

Again. Certainly an impact player, I still don't see him taking over gamed or making Chris Kunitz outscore other elite players or making pascal dupuis into a threat.

Depends on one's semantic definition of elite, really.

Kunitz, again, has more points than Giroux this season and last.

Is Kunitz "elite"?

 

Yes, agreed entirely.  Stats make you good, maybe even great.  But, intangibles make you elite.  Guys like Forsberg, Lindros, Sakic, Brodeur, Roy, Pronger, etc are elite.  In today's game, that's Crosby, Quick, Lundqvist, Duncan Keith, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Toews, Datsyuk, etc.

 

Giroux is not in that company, or at least not yet.

[radoran]

Yes, agreed entirely. Stats make you good, maybe even great. But, intangibles make you elite. Guys like Forsberg, Lindros, Sakic, Brodeur, Roy, Pronger, etc are elite. In today's game, that's Crosby, Quick, Lundqvist, Duncan Keith, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Toews, Datsyuk, etc.

Giroux is not in that company, or at least not yet.

Not yet is the key term. I'm not saying he CAN'T be, just that right now he isn't.

[jammer2]

  The eye test tells me Giroux sees the ice as well as those elite players, so that's a nice place to start.

[doom88]

Not yet is the key term. I'm not saying he CAN'T be, just that right now he isn't.

Exactly exact

[JackStraw]

Again. Certainly an impact player, I still don't see him taking over gamed or making Chris Kunitz outscore other elite players or making pascal dupuis into a threat.

Depends on one's semantic definition of elite, really.

Kunitz, again, has more points than Giroux this season and last.

Is Kunitz "elite"?

I don't really have to describe the difference between Giroux's points and Kunitz's points, do I? Or say, the difference in their respective trade values?

[radoran]

I don't really have to describe the difference between Giroux's points and Kunitz's points, do I? Or say, the difference in their respective trade values?

 

No, of course not. But that's why relying strictly on a "total points" argument (as you were...) is a bad marker.

 

FWIW, Kunitz is signed for $3.875M for three more years. Dupuis for $3.75M. Crosby $8.7M. $16.35M for the top line. They have 160 points so far this season. 

 

Giroux next year $8.25M. Voracek $4.25M. Raffl's an RFA (and has all of two points this calendar year that are Giroux-related - of his five), so let's use... Hartnell? They have 124 points total this season so far. For $17.25M. 

 

The point here is a matter of degree. Yes, Kunitz's points are inflated by playing with Crosby. So are Dupuis'. That, for my money, is what elite players do - they raise the players around them. Quite frankly, I haven't seen enough of Giroux doing that - certainly not to the degree of not only Crosby but the other players referenced in this thread. Otherwise, Voracek and Hartnell - two players I would likely put higher than Kunitz and Dupuis (respectively), should be producing more than they currently are.

 

I hope he does it. And, again, this isn't to say he's not a "great" player but a matter of degree in terms of what is "elite" - for me (and, apparently others). But to this point his breakout season was clearly influenced by Jagr (much the same way Gagne's was with Forsberg).

[JackStraw]

@radoran - I would certainly say he boosted Hartnell's numbers when Hartnell got 36 goals. And that wasn't all (or even mostly in my opinion) because Jagr was on that line.

And I'm not relying solely on points, although I'd say that points over that significant a time period is a pretty strong argument. There are around 600 skaters on NHL rosters. I'd say Giroux is one of the 20 best players in the league (being conservative). Isn't that "elite"? How many players in the league do you think could be traded even up for Giroux? I'd say fewer than 20.

Here's another thread from hfboards started by a Blues fan wondering what it would take to get Giroux. The general consensus seems to be that it would take Pietrangelo. That's pretty elite company.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1542833

I'm not saying that he's as good as Crosby or Malkin or Stamkos, or a few others probably. But he does make players around him better, just like most really good players do. As someone already said, we're talking semantics. What does it mean to be considered "elite"? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10? Kessel has become one of the top wingers in the league, would you trade Giroux for him straight up? I wouldn't.

[radoran]

@radoran - I would certainly say he boosted Hartnell's numbers when Hartnell got 36 goals. And that wasn't all (or even mostly in my opinion) because Jagr was on that line.

I'm not saying that he's as good as Crosby or Malkin or Stamkos, or a few others probably. But he does make players around him better, just like most really good players do. As someone already said, we're talking semantics. What does it mean to be considered "elite"? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10? Kessel has become one of the top wingers in the league, would you trade Giroux for him straight up? I wouldn't.

 

I said that

 

I think that Jagr's puck possession skills and his ability to draw attention and take up attention clearly opened up the game for Giroux in space and Hartnell down low. 

 

And if Giroux was the calatyst for Hartnell, why did Hartnell's numbers drop off immediately and with such alacrity after Jagr left that he ultimately was pulled off the line?

 

I've given my definition of "elite" and the difference between "elite" and "great." Giroux, for me, is a great player. He has yet to show elite ability - which, again, is making everyone else around you better (Pascal Dupuis, Teddy Purcell, etc.).

 

I'm still waiting for that next step.

 

Whether, where or what I might get for Giroux in a trade doesn't really enter into it. FWIW, I wouldn't do it straight up for Pietrangelo.

[JackStraw]

I said that

 

Well there you have it...

 

I think that Jagr's puck possession skills and his ability to draw attention and take up attention clearly opened up the game for Giroux in space and Hartnell down low. 
 
And if Giroux was the calatyst for Hartnell, why did Hartnell's numbers drop off immediately and with such alacrity after Jagr left that he ultimately was pulled off the line?

 

I never suggested that having Jagr on the same line didn't help both Giroux and Hartnell. But usually it's been Giroux that's setting up Hartnell for those one-timers.

 

I've given my definition of "elite" and the difference between "elite" and "great." Giroux, for me, is a great player. He has yet to show elite ability - which, again, is making everyone else around you better (Pascal Dupuis, Teddy Purcell, etc.).

 

Is Alex Ovechkin elite? I think virtually everyone (even me and I'm hardly his biggest fan) would say that he is. But I don't think he makes the players around him better. In fact to a degree I think he makes them worse, because they try too hard to force the puck to him.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what it means to be an elite player. I don't think making players around you better is really a criteria, although it does tend to follow. And I think Giroux does make players around him better. At least when compared to most centers in the league. In my opinion, Giroux's skills, his production, and his trade value all put him in the class of the NHL's elite players. That doesn't mean that he can't improve on certain areas of his game.

[aziz]

In my opinion, Giroux's skills, his production, and his trade value all put him in the class of the NHL's elite players

 

there are the elite 100+ point scorers who turn 45 point wingers into 80 point wingers, and then there are the elite 80 point scorers who themselves benefit from highly talented linemates but can elevate the 45 point guy to 65 points,  who are above 95% of the league in terms of talent and effectiveness, but...are in a different catagory than the 100+ point guys.

 

giroux can't hold much of a candle to that group.  crosby is on a 111 point pace.  ovechkin is looking at 62 goals in an 82 game season.  erik karlsson is shooting at 76 points as a defenseman.  giroux just isn't in that class.  

 

he is on the level of the kopitars and toews of the league, though, and that is far from nothing.  he's going to be making a bit more than them.  i can see that as a problem, but...there is some amount of relative-to-the-team-ness to it.  whether the pengiuns would see him as worth that money isn't really the issue.  what is he worth to the flyers?  is he worth more than 10% of the team's cap total?  if so, then comparisons to crosby and ovechkin aren't really so relevant.  

[JackStraw]

there are the elite 100+ point scorers who turn 45 point wingers into 80 point wingers, and then there are the elite 80 point scorers who themselves benefit from highly talented linemates but can elevate the 45 point guy to 65 points,  who are above 95% of the league in terms of talent and effectiveness, but...are in a different catagory than the 100+ point guys.

 

giroux can't hold much of a candle to that group.  crosby is on a 111 point pace.  ovechkin is looking at 62 goals in an 82 game season.  erik karlsson is shooting at 76 points as a defenseman.  giroux just isn't in that class.  

 

he is on the level of the kopitars and toews of the league, though, and that is far from nothing.  he's going to be making a bit more than them.  i can see that as a problem, but...there is some amount of relative-to-the-team-ness to it.  whether the pengiuns would see him as worth that money isn't really the issue.  what is he worth to the flyers?  is he worth more than 10% of the team's cap total?  if so, then comparisons to crosby and ovechkin aren't really so relevant.

Agree with everything you wrote. Well said.

[radoran]

Is Alex Ovechkin elite? I think virtually everyone (even me and I'm hardly his biggest fan) would say that he is. But I don't think he makes the players around him better. In fact to a degree I think he makes them worse, because they try too hard to force the puck to him.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what it means to be an elite player. I don't think making players around you better is really a criteria, although it does tend to follow. And I think Giroux does make players around him better. At least when compared to most centers in the league. In my opinion, Giroux's skills, his production, and his trade value all put him in the class of the NHL's elite players. That doesn't mean that he can't improve on certain areas of his game.

 

No problem at all agreeing to differ

 

I'd call Ovechkin an elite goal-scorer as opposed to a complete player.

 

We'll see if Giroux is "worth the money"