When it's all said and done, what do you say about Thornton's

[JackStraw]

I disagree with your point here.  Marino's playoff teams never had a shot because the defense was either depleted by injury or porous.  Last I checked Quarterback isn't a defensive position.   Football is a sport where one guy definitely gets too much credit and blame for team successes or failings.  put him on those San Francisco teams and there wouldn't be a passing record in the books he wouldn't own along with all the Lombardi trophies Montana won and maybe some he didn't.

 

Yeah, I don't remember those Dolphins teams having much of a defense. And I don't remember much of a running game either (which actually mattered back then). It was pretty much all Marino and "the Marks".

[yave1964]

Dan Marino is another one. Nobody can say that he wasn't one of the greatest QBs of all time, but no championships and only got to one SB iirc. And QBs probably have a greater influence on games than almost any other position in sports (hockey goalie being the other obvious one).

And that kind of is my point. When rating superstars such as Marino, Williams, Dionne, ect.. we as fans always seem to be able to pick the ones out who did not win the championships. It is relevant.

No Bourque did not lead the "Lanche to the cup, at least I don't think so, I really, truly honestly was unable to watch the finals because at that time, Colorado and New Jersey would rank as my ultimate most hated two teams in the game and the thought of them in the finals kind of ruined the postseason for me, lol. I did watch the last few minutes of the final game, I was happy for Raymond to see him finally get his cup but God, i wish it had been with anyone else. Anyone.

[fanaticV3.0]

I disagree with your point here.  Marino's playoff teams never had a shot because the defense was either depleted by injury or porous.  Last I checked Quarterback isn't a defensive position.   Football is a sport where one guy definitely gets too much credit and blame for team successes or failings.  put him on those San Francisco teams and there wouldn't be a passing record in the books he wouldn't own along with all the Lombardi trophies Montana won and maybe some he didn't.

 

I am extremely aware and sensitive to the fact QBs get too much blame and praise for a whole team's accomplishments or shortcomings. I am a fan of both McNabb and Dawkins, but only one of these leaders gets blamed for the lack of championships during the Reid/McNabb era. Hell, the fact that it's referred to as the Reid/McNabb era in of itself is a testament how unfairly they are treated. But the facts can't be ignored. He's got fantastic numbers. His individual stats speak for themselves. The man was a great player. But that PO record and rating are also telling. Even if you ignore the lack of championships, which I agree is not on one man, the other stuff can't just be ignored. I can think of 5 guys in the league today I'd take over him and when you expand it to all-time, he's definitely not even top 10 of the guys I'd want to build my team around.

[Vanflyer]

This entire conversation makes me think of Mark Messier. He led a team to a Cup after that all-star team he played for broke up. Even Gretzky didn't do that. I think he might be the only guy from those Oilers Cup teams to do that. That is great imo.

 

Can't argue with that one bit. He was the guy to take the bullets for that NYR team. He did however have Leetch and Richter and a nice supporting cast. Not an oiler all-star team for sure, but still a studded team non-the-less. 

[J0e Th0rnton]

There is a part of me that believes if Lindros ended up on Quebec/Colorado, and if he and his parents could put their egos aside, he'd have won the two Forsberg did. Agreed on both him and Thornton. Some guys, even "great" players, aren't meant to lead. They just need to be able to go out and perform.

 

This entire conversation makes me think of Mark Messier. He led a team to a Cup after that all-star team he played for broke up. Even Gretzky didn't do that. I think he might be the only guy from those Oilers Cup teams to do that. That is great imo.

I don't know if Lindros gets a cup or not. The trade was obviously not just him and Forsberg straight up. It also got them pieces to land Roy, who Quebec would NEVER have traded to Montreal. Ricci was a big part of their win, as was Claude Lemieux, who did not come directly, but came from the pieces.

 

Do you think Bourque lead that Colorado team to a Cup though? As opposed to just being a part of the team?

 

I'm stuck somewhere between you and @JackStraw. I think you put a lot, maybe even too much, emphasis on team accomplishments when judging a player. If you take two guys with similar career numbers, but one has a Cup and the other doesn't, I can't say the one is great because he has the Cup and the other doesn't. A lot of it depend son which team you play for. But I do agree leading a team to a championship can mean something.

Being part of the team is what most players are when they win a cup. A lot of people despaired when Forsberg had to miss the finals with his injury. but they found a way to get it done after losing one of the best players in the world in his prime.

 

Bourque just played solid, defense first Hockey, and the forwards converted his passes. Sakic had his best season ever with Bourque running the transition game. He was not the elite Dman he was when he was younger, but he was still amazing at his age and rock solid enough to get runner up for the Norris.

 

His best performances were in the past with lesser teams. When you look back at the Oilers Finals in 1990, it is easy to see why the Bruins lost. Bourque was on the ice for almost all of the Bruins goals in the entire series, with few scored against the Bruins when he was on the ice. They got absolutely molested when he was not on the ice. Even other top players Neely and Janney were just completely overmatched by the Hall of fame forwards the Oilers were matching against them, managing just 4 assists and zero goals between the two of them in 5 games.

[fanaticV3.0]

Can't argue with that one bit. He was the guy to take the bullets for that NYR team. He did however have Leetch and Richter and a nice supporting cast. Not an oiler all-star team for sure, but still a studded team non-the-less. 

 

I forget the exact quote but Gretzky used to say Messier was the best hockey player ever or best one he played with??? I agree he did have other players to help him, but all guys do and I also agree that, while good, that team wasn't as loaded as his Oiler teams. To me, that stands out. He won a sh!t ton on those all-star teams in Edminton and still went on to win elsewhere. That's simply awesome imo.

[fanaticV3.0]

I don't know if Lindros gets a cup or not. The trade was obviously not just him and Forsberg straight up. It also got them pieces to land Roy, who Quebec would NEVER have traded to Montreal. Ricci was a big part of their win, as was Claude Lemieux, who did not come directly, but came from the pieces.

 

Being part of the team is what most players are when they win a cup. A lot of people despaired when Forsberg had to miss the finals with his injury. but they found a way to get it done after losing one of the best players in the world in his prime.

 

Bourque just played solid, defense first Hockey, and the forwards converted his passes. Sakic had his best season ever with Bourque running the transition game. He was not the elite Dman he was when he was younger, but he was still amazing at his age and rock solid enough to get runner up for the Norris.

 

His best performances were in the past with lesser teams. When you look back at the Oilers Finals in 1990, it is easy to see why the Bruins lost. Bourque was on the ice for almost all of the Bruins goals in the entire series, with few scored against the Bruins when he was on the ice. They got absolutely molested when he was not on the ice. Even other top players Neely and Janney were just completely overmatched by the Hall of fame forwards the Oilers were matching against them, managing just 4 assists and zero goals between the two of them in 5 games.

 

I don't remember/didn't know how they got Roy. That's a good point. That specifics of that aside, Lindros on a team with the types of players Forsberg had around him might win a Cup and Forsberg expected to carry a team like Lindros was here does not win a Cup. Forsberg was a tremedous talent, but without HOFers around him I think he's Joe Thornton/Eric Lindros (no Cups).

 

That's true, but it doesn't mean there aren't teams who win because of certain players. Is Ray Bourque one of those guys for that Colorado team? I don't know about that. He's a very good player. A great one in fact. But I'm not sure he played a major factor in any Cups. That doesn't mean he didn't play good for Colorado. 

[J0e Th0rnton]

I don't remember/didn't know how they got Roy. That's a good point. That specifics of that aside, Lindros on a team with the types of players Forsberg had around him might win a Cup and Forsberg expected to carry a team like Lindros was here does not win a Cup. Forsberg was a tremedous talent, but without HOFers around him I think he's Joe Thornton/Eric Lindros (no Cups).

 

That's true, but it doesn't mean there aren't teams who win because of certain players. Is Ray Bourque one of those guys for that Colorado team? I don't know about that. He's a very good player. A great one in fact. But I'm not sure he played a major factor in any Cups. That doesn't mean he didn't play good for Colorado. 

His rock silid defense, shutting down opposing top players, and seamless transition game which allowed the forwards to cheat a bit, and overall amazing presence and confidence definitely was a key factor in the cup win. The man averaged almost 30 minutes per game.

 

Effectively, just throw Bourque on a better team in his prime and the cups roll in like anyone else. Gretzky could not win with the Kings, but nobody holds that against him.

[fanaticV3.0]

His rock silid defense, shutting down opposing top players, and seamless transition game which allowed the forwards to cheat a bit, and overall amazing presence and confidence definitely was a key factor in the cup win. The man averaged almost 30 minutes per game.

 

Effectively, just throw Bourque on a better team in his prime and the cups roll in like anyone else. Gretzky could not win with the Kings, but nobody holds that against him.

 

I'm not debating his skill. He's a very good player. A great one in fact. But great players aren't always leaders.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I'm not debating his skill.

Oh I know. but his best hockey in the playoffs ended up running into the Oilers twice in the finals. Along with running into Lemieux's Penguins in 1991, a series they were up 2 games to zero until Samuellson smashed Neely's leg and that ended that run since they had no other scoring depth.

 

Lidstrom is his most common comparable and is praised for his 4 cups and was fortunate enough to play on a team as deep as Detroit his entire career. Bourque won a cup after finally going to a team that deep and was a key player.

 

I guess it would be easier to ask which players you think DID dominate their team to a cup instead of just being an important piece.

[fanaticV3.0]

Oh I know. but his best hockey in the playoffs ended up running into the Oilers twice in the finals. Along with running into Lemieux's Penguins in 1991, a series they were up 2 games to zero until Samuellson smashed Neely's leg and that ended that run since they had no other scoring depth.

 

Lidstrom is his most common comparable and is praised for his 4 cups and was fortunate enough to play on a team as deep as Detroit his entire career. Bourque won a cup after finally going to a team that deep and was a key player.

 

I guess it would be easier to ask which players you think DID dominate their team to a cup instead of just being an important piece.

 

No disagreement from me that he did not play on very good teams most of his career.

 

Off the top of my head, Messier, Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy. It's not just about winning the Cup or not to me though. As you point out with Bourque, it's a team game. I think the same logic can be applied to Thornton. I'm not a "no championships = not a great player guy", but at the same time I also think great players can/should. I'm somewhere between the two. It's really tough to decided what constitutes a HOFer sometimes.

[yave1964]

No disagreement from me that he did not play on very good teams most of his career.

 

Off the top of my head, Messier, Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy. It's not just about winning the Cup or not to me though. As you point out with Bourque, it's a team game. I think the same logic can be applied to Thornton. I'm not a "no championships = not a great player guy", but at the same time I also think great players can/should. I'm somewhere between the two. It's really tough to decided what constitutes a HOFer sometimes.

I am not saying that you have to win a cup to be an all time great but postseason success HAS to e considered when ranking a player. Thornton (and Marleau to a greater degree) have been hurt in the eyes of fans who watch them, year after year get knocked out when they are considered to be a favorite going into the postseason. Last years debacle will hang over them until they make it go away.

As a Wings fan, I remember Yzerman getting the exact same type of press during the early nineties when the Wings were getting knocked out by inferior Leafs and Sharks teams, rumors sprang up that they could never win with Yzerman as captain, rumors in 95 and 96 sprang up that he was going to Ottawa for Yashin or get shipped out for Lafontaine.

Thank God they didn't do it, Yzerman bought into Scotty's system, became an al time great.

Not saying Thornton needs to win three of four cups but he needs to put the whispers behind him in the exact same way that Yzerman did or it will be a factor, perhaps an unfairly large factor, when people sum up his career. So Joe, (and Marleau) if you don't like it, win a cup.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I am not saying that you have to win a cup to be an all time great but postseason success HAS to e considered when ranking a player. Thornton (and Marleau to a greater degree) have been hurt in the eyes of fans who watch them, year after year get knocked out when they are considered to be a favorite going into the postseason. Last years debacle will hang over them until they make it go away.

As a Wings fan, I remember Yzerman getting the exact same type of press during the early nineties when the Wings were getting knocked out by inferior Leafs and Sharks teams, rumors sprang up that they could never win with Yzerman as captain, rumors in 95 and 96 sprang up that he was going to Ottawa for Yashin or get shipped out for Lafontaine.

Thank God they didn't do it, Yzerman bought into Scotty's system, became an al time great.

Not saying Thornton needs to win three of four cups but he needs to put the whispers behind him in the exact same way that Yzerman did or it will be a factor, perhaps an unfairly large factor, when people sum up his career. So Joe, (and Marleau) if you don't like it, win a cup.

Oh boy I remember those rumors. Even in the days before the internet. Whatever the whispers from the analysts and announcers and player interviews kinda spread like telephone gossip among the fans.

 

Right after hearing those rumors, first game of the next season Bowman got booooed and Yzerman got a huge standing ovation.

 

Can you imagine? Yashin? Just imagine all 3 cups not happening.

[Vanflyer]

Messier was the best hockey player ever or best one he played with??? I agree he did have other players to help him, but all guys do and I also agree that, while good, that team wasn't as loaded as his Oiler teams. To me, that stands out. He won a **** ton on those all-star teams in Edminton and still went on to win elsewhere. That's simply awesome imo.

 

You won't get any argument from me re: Messier. One of my favorite modern day players. He could deliver a fore-arm shiver as equal to snapping a nice wrister where momma keeps the cookies or cleaning the toilet in front. Not an aspect about his game that I don't appreciate. Its the way the game should be played IMO.

[yave1964]

Oh boy I remember those rumors. Even in the days before the internet. Whatever the whispers from the analysts and announcers and player interviews kinda spread like telephone gossip among the fans.

 

Right after hearing those rumors, first game of the next season Bowman got booooed and Yzerman got a huge standing ovation.

 

Can you imagine? Yashin? Just imagine all 3 cups not happening.

My best friend was drooling at the thought of Yashin on the wing with Federov feeding him the puck. Thank God they didn't do it. Actually thank Jimmy devellano.

Joe, the biggest thing that you need to understand is most of us East coasters watch the 7 o'clock games and head to bed and then catch up on the scores from the late games on the net. Say the Wings are playing the Sharks at 10:30 the game gets over at 1AM. Now I DVR it and watch the entire game unless I peak at the score on the internet and see we lost an ugly game or something and then I just fast forward to our goals and maybe the penalties and if I am feeling masochistic I might watch the opposing goals to see who screwed up and missed an assignment or blew a coverage. That is about it and frankly more than most fans do that don't choose to stay up til one in the morning.

My point is, Thornton suffers from a East Coast bias to a certain degree, most East coasters don't see him except once or twice when the Sharks play their team back home, and that is about it. He is a line of statistics to most east coasters, nothing more.

But then the playoffs start and suddenly staying up til one AM is not only fun it is damn near mandatory. And if Thornton looks human, and his team which he captains underachieves, THAT is what sticks with them until the next April when the playoffs start again. It sucks, it might not be fair, but hey, he gets to live in San Jose while some other Schmo is freezing his toochus off in Winnipeg or Ottawa.

So all that most East coasters know is he puts up damn good regular season numbers, damn good but usually not league leading. And then when they tune in, his team fails. That is the truth, like I said it might not be fair but that is an objective take on it. We ran a list last year, He is a top ten all time center in damn near anyones book which surprised me because I am guilty of it too, I did not realize just how outstanding his numbers are in relation to his era and comparing him to others from different times he stacks up well and does not need to hang his head. This team needs a cup more than about anyone around, otherwise they will be the West Coast version of the Senators from a decade ago, a damn good team that wins President Cups and then loses to the Leafs in April every year. That is what everyone remembers, the Kings are your Leafs. Somehow you guys gotta get over the hump.

[Vanflyer]

Joe, the biggest thing that you need to understand is most of us East coasters watch the 7 o'clock games and head to bed and then catch up on the scores from the late games on the net. Say the Wings are playing the Sharks at 10:30 the game gets over at 1AM.

 

Not to be a dick, but I am pretty sure that Joe is residing on the east coast.

[yave1964]

Not to be a dick, but I am pretty sure that Joe is residing on the east coast.

Yes I know he is, unlike most of my fellow United States Citizens I get geography, lol. But he is the exception, he is as far to the East as possible and still a Sharks fan, I was stating that MOST of us on the East coast don't stay up and watch the Hockey out west unless our team in playing.

Geography. I remember back in 1984 when I joined the Army and went to Germany, I was ashamed at how little I knew of the world, and how many of the people I would speak to in Germany knew so much more even about my own country than I did. I would tell someone that I was from Ohio and they would start rattling city names off and I would be embarrassed. I have made a point of studying geography ever since (and speak German, while not fluently at least it is passable) and do not want to be the typical ugly American.

[Vanflyer]

1984 when I joined the Army and went to Germany, I was ashamed at how little I knew of the world, and how many of the people I would speak to in Germany knew so much more even about my own country than I did. I would tell someone that I was from Ohio and they would start rattling city names off and I would be embarrassed. I

 

It is frankly embarrasing that europe knows more about the US / Canada than its own residents. That said, Asia, as much as the love "hollywood" would be lucky to find north (let alone) south america to pin it to a map.

[mojo1917]

@yave1964

Nice post about east coast bias, I disagree when you compare the Kings to the Leafs. The Kings beat everyone and win cups, those Leaf teams powder was spent after beating the Senators, plus the East's playoff teams were so physical , often there wasn't much left of the ECF winner in the cup finals, a lot of good teams got beaten via attrition.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@yave1964

Nice post about east coast bias, I disagree when you compare the Kings to the Leafs. The Kings beat everyone and win cups, those Leaf teams powder was spent after beating the Senators, plus the East's playoff teams were so physical , often there wasn't much left of the ECF winner in the cup finals, a lot of good teams got beaten via attrition.

 

The grinding physical style is the Norm in the west. When it comes to physicality, I think it is far tougher to win the west and stay fresh than the east. Quite Honestly. but I also think the western teams are on average, better.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Yes I know he is, unlike most of my fellow United States Citizens I get geography, lol. But he is the exception, he is as far to the East as possible and still a Sharks fan, I was stating that MOST of us on the East coast don't stay up and watch the Hockey out west unless our team in playing.

Geography. I remember back in 1984 when I joined the Army and went to Germany, I was ashamed at how little I knew of the world, and how many of the people I would speak to in Germany knew so much more even about my own country than I did. I would tell someone that I was from Ohio and they would start rattling city names off and I would be embarrassed. I have made a point of studying geography ever since (and speak German, while not fluently at least it is passable) and do not want to be the typical ugly American.

 

Yeah, it is hard, trust me lol. Especially since having kids

[J0e Th0rnton]

It is frankly embarrasing that europe knows more about the US / Canada than its own residents. That said, Asia, as much as the love "hollywood" would be lucky to find north (let alone) south america to pin it to a map.

Ill confess, when my buddy Paul from Wales was getting his citizenship, I did not know a lot of the questions answers.

 

I was unaware beavers were the Canadian national animal. I could have sworn it is moose. Or that Lacross was our national sport over Hockey

[yave1964]

@J0e Th0rnton It was embarrassing as a nineteen year old being asked by a German national in all seriousness when I told him that I was from Ohio, having the old codger tell me that he always got confused he knew Ohio had the glass capital and the rubber capital and knew they were Akron and Toledo but was not sure which was which and truthfully, I did not know the answer. Since then i have made a point of studying as much geography and history as possible, both here and throughout the world.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton It was embarrassing as a nineteen year old being asked by a German national in all seriousness when I told him that I was from Ohio, having the old codger tell me that he always got confused he knew Ohio had the glass capital and the rubber capital and knew they were Akron and Toledo but was not sure which was which and truthfully, I did not know the answer. Since then i have made a point of studying as much geography and history as possible, both here and throughout the world.

Heh. Understandable. Myself, I just study things that truly interest me and I find appealing. I can honestly say that while I love living in Halifax, I know little of its history because it does not have a lot of things that interest me.

 

The kind of History that interests me is the History of Samurai(My dad is Japanese), World Wars,  the History of the five Families and the laws crackdowns from the FBI and congress(Mafia Stuff. True crime appeals to me).

 

I have always had attention deficit problems when it came to things that did not capture my attention. I can remember in great detail things about Hockey, Video games, Star Trek, Fantasy novels and true crime if I read it or see it once. But I can study certain History things for DAYS/WEEKS and not remember a single thing at the end.

 

Might be a learning disorder I am too old to outgrow. i was exceptionally smart at some things in school, and just barely scrapped by in other things.

[mojo1917]

The grinding physical style is the Norm in the west. When it comes to physicality, I think it is far tougher to win the west and stay fresh than the east. Quite Honestly. but I also think the western teams are on average, better.

I agree when we're talking about today's play.

I disagree when we're talking mid to late 90's and early 00's...the east was a meat grinder and that was the era I was referencing in my post. specifically those Leaf teams which were good plus you knew you were in a hockey game when you were done playing them.