Who Is The 5th Greatest Player Of All Time?

[JagerMeister]

Hasek has an amazing amount of hardware.

 

So does Marty. Including 3 cups.

 

And over 300 more wins. That is huge and insurmountable.

3 cups is a team award. Brodeur was in a cup contending team. Buffalo should have never made those layoffs but they did with Hasek carrying them. And as i said, Brodeur did benefit from the great teams he played in as well as playing 1200 games compared to Haseks 700

[Polaris922]

I respect Brodeur as a top goalie, but he DID benefit from great defensive players behind a clutch and grab trap system for a loooong time. To me that weighs in. Is he great? Yes. But I believe that crap system inflated his numbers too.

[JagerMeister]

So, are there anymore players you think are deserving of 5th spot

 

Messier maybe? Guy Lafleur, Doug Harvey, Eddie Shore?

[ruxpin]

So, are there anymore players you think are deserving of 5th spot

 

Messier maybe? Guy Lafleur, Doug Harvey, Eddie Shore?

 

LOL  Nice try.  Sadly, that ship has sailed.  

 

I would really make a case for Messier.   8th in goals, 3rd in assists.  2nd in points.   Was it 6 cups?  Captain for two and on two different teams.  One could argue he's a compiler (2nd most games), but given the way he played, that actually be more of a testament than indictment. 

 

Okay, he officially gets my vote.

 

I liked Guy Lafleur.  He's somewhere 6-15 probably.  I don't remember enough of Eddie Shore to comment.  Ron Francis is not #5, but he's somewhere in that next 10 discussion I would think.

[JagerMeister]

LOL  Nice try.  Sadly, that ship has sailed.  

 

I would really make a case for Messier.   8th in goals, 3rd in assists.  2nd in points.   Was it 6 cups?  Captain for two and on two different teams.  One could argue he's a compiler (2nd most games), but given the way he played, that actually be more of a testament than indictment. 

 

Okay, he officially gets my vote.

 

I liked Guy Lafleur.  He's somewhere 6-15 probably.  I don't remember enough of Eddie Shore to comment.  Ron Francis is not #5, but he's somewhere in that next 10 discussion I would think.

I would not put ron francis among top 30.... As for Messier, I myself would put him around 8-20 and same with Lafleur.

[yave1964]

I respect Brodeur as a top goalie, but he DID benefit from great defensive players behind a clutch and grab trap system for a loooong time. To me that weighs in. Is he great? Yes. But I believe that crap system inflated his numbers too.

Polaris I love you bro but your new pic that pops up with your posts is making me sick to my stomach. My wife has been on me to lose weight, if I keep looking at that photo of the Penguin logo in a Stanley cup ring I may never eat again......

[yave1964]

@JagerMeister

 

Bill James in his Baseball Abstracts talks about two ways of looking at how to rank a player:

 

Career value

 

Peak Value

 

Career value is self explanatory, it is sitting back a the end of the career and looking at the final stats, in a goalies case, total wins, shutouts, Cups, All Star appearances, ect....... Not the weight of any one season but the value of everything added up.

 

Peak value is what a player did in his prime. Usualy over a six or seven year span how well a player did at dominating the game.

 

IMHO for career value, everything added up it has to be Marty, like I said, 140 more wins than the next closest player to have ever played the game, there are HOFers who have 140 total wins for God sake. There is just simply too much over the course of his career, most starts, wins, shutouts, his vezinas and the whole mix IMHO make his career value higher than any netminder in history.

 

Peak Value, to me Marty does not make the top five, peak value IMHO comes down to 3 players:

 

Terry Sawchuk

Ken Dryden

Dominik Hasek

 

  Sawchuk in the fifties with the Wings was absolutely incredible, From 50 thru 55 over his first six years he was first team al star 3 times and second team twice, won three Vezinas and 3 cups, once with a sickening 0.62 GAA with 4 shutouts in 8 games. His peak value was remarkably high.

 

Dryden played only 8 years but won the cup six times and won the Vezina 5 times during that short stretch. His best season he went 41-6-8.

 

Hasek, Well you ran the numbers but at his peak he was just as good as anyone who ever played the game. 2 Hart trophies, well earned, From 94 to 99 he won two Harts and 3 Vezinas.

 

Personally, peak value wise, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three and do not wish to insult any of these remarkable players. My ranking of the three:

Dryden

Hasek

Sawchuk

 

You could convince me that peak wise, any of the three is worthy and I would agree with you. I went Dryden because of 6 cups in 8 years. To throw cups out of the equation as you seem to want to do In my opinion is a fallacy, of course they count.THAT is what the game is played for. Dryden played with possibly the greatest dynasty of all time and they might have won nearly as many cups with an average netminder, but he was an all time great who again, won six cups in his 8 year career. It has to count.

 

  I remember Hasek in the early nineties, he was just filthy, your jaw dropped four or five times a night because of his saves. Dryden didn't have to do that, Hasek had to win the games for his team, Dryden simply had to let his teammates win, essentially not to lose the games, as he stated himself in his brilliant book, The Game.

 

  Sawchuk hit the game as the most dominating goalie in the game and deserves consideration, both in terms of career and peak value.

[Polaris922]

Polaris I love you bro but your new pic that pops up with your posts is making me sick to my stomach. My wife has been on me to lose weight, if I keep looking at that photo of the Penguin logo in a Stanley cup ring I may never eat again......

Just remind her the check better clear...

[JagerMeister]

@JagerMeister

 

Bill James in his Baseball Abstracts talks about two ways of looking at how to rank a player:

 

Career value

 

Peak Value

 

Career value is self explanatory, it is sitting back a the end of the career and looking at the final stats, in a goalies case, total wins, shutouts, Cups, All Star appearances, ect....... Not the weight of any one season but the value of everything added up.

 

Peak value is what a player did in his prime. Usualy over a six or seven year span how well a player did at dominating the game.

 

IMHO for career value, everything added up it has to be Marty, like I said, 140 more wins than the next closest player to have ever played the game, there are HOFers who have 140 total wins for God sake. There is just simply too much over the course of his career, most starts, wins, shutouts, his vezinas and the whole mix IMHO make his career value higher than any netminder in history.

 

Peak Value, to me Marty does not make the top five, peak value IMHO comes down to 3 players:

 

Terry Sawchuk

Ken Dryden

Dominik Hasek

 

  Sawchuk in the fifties with the Wings was absolutely incredible, From 50 thru 55 over his first six years he was first team al star 3 times and second team twice, won three Vezinas and 3 cups, once with a sickening 0.62 GAA with 4 shutouts in 8 games. His peak value was remarkably high.

 

Dryden played only 8 years but won the cup six times and won the Vezina 5 times during that short stretch. His best season he went 41-6-8.

 

Hasek, Well you ran the numbers but at his peak he was just as good as anyone who ever played the game. 2 Hart trophies, well earned, From 94 to 99 he won two Harts and 3 Vezinas.

 

Personally, peak value wise, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three and do not wish to insult any of these remarkable players. My ranking of the three:

Dryden

Hasek

Sawchuk

 

You could convince me that peak wise, any of the three is worthy and I would agree with you. I went Dryden because of 6 cups in 8 years. To throw cups out of the equation as you seem to want to do In my opinion is a fallacy, of course they count.THAT is what the game is played for. Dryden played with possibly the greatest dynasty of all time and they might have won nearly as many cups with an average netminder, but he was an all time great who again, won six cups in his 8 year career. It has to count.

 

  I remember Hasek in the early nineties, he was just filthy, your jaw dropped four or five times a night because of his saves. Dryden didn't have to do that, Hasek had to win the games for his team, Dryden simply had to let his teammates win, essentially not to lose the games, as he stated himself in his brilliant book, The Game.

 

  Sawchuk hit the game as the most dominating goalie in the game and deserves consideration, both in terms of career and peak value.

 If you value career more then peak then i guess you can pick Brodeur over Hasek, because there certainly is a good case for it. However, career is not just your wins, Cups, shutouts. It is also the individual awards one has won, and Hasek stands head and shoulders above the rest in that category. Hasek at his peak was better goalie then Brodeur IMO. But Brodeur has had the more succesful career, depending on how much value you put towards individual awards.