Who Is The 5th Greatest Player Of All Time?

[JagerMeister]

Ok, so we all know who the top 4 players are, But after that there are several players that could have a good argument for 5th place. So who do you think is the 5th best player of all time?

I think these are the players that have the best argument for 5th place

 

 

Bobby Hull

Won 4 art ross trophies and one mvp, He led the league in scoring 8 times. Was the best player during the 60s and is arguably the greatest goal scorer of all time.

Had 913 goals including his time spent in the WHA. Had he not left the NHL during his prime, I am almost certain he would be 2nd in goals all time, maybe even 1st.

 

Career stats

 NHL 1036 610 560 1170

WHA  411  303 335 638

 

The WHA was the second best hockey league in the world, so im pretty sure had he not left he would be much higher in goals, and maybe even crack top ten all time in points. He had great longevity and was also very good for a long time

 

Jean Beliveau

 One of the most complete players of all time, there was nothing he couldnt do. He was also one of the greatest playoff performers of all time, he was basically everything you wanted in a player. He had great longevity and was very good for a long time, In his last year at the age of 39 he still had a ppg of 1.09 and had 22 points in the playoffs. Won 17 stanley cups, thats the most in NHL history, 10 as a player and 7 as part of Montreals management. 2 MVP trophies, an art ross and a conn smythe, truly a great player. RIP

 

Career stats

1125 507 712 1219

Playoffs 

162 79 97 176

 

Dominik Hasek

Now, i know probably no one here would even consider putting him in their top 10 list let alone top 5, But i truly believe Hasek was the greatest goalie that ever played in the NHL.

6 vezina trophies, 3 jennings. But having 3 pearsons and 2 Harts is almost unheard of as a goalie. Only one other goalie one the pearson once, but Hasek did it 3 times. Also only goaltender to win the hart more then once, and keep in mind he did this competing with Brodeur and Roy( Who is probably the second greatest goalie of all time) and while being in a terrible Buffalo team. He carried his team to the playoffs almost all the time. He is also number 1 in save percentage all time. 

 

Maurice Richard

His legacy alone could put him at 5th spot, He has the greatest legacy of any player in NHL history. Was one of the greatest playoff performers of all time, was the first player to score 50 goals and led the league in scoring 5 times. he even inspired a riot.

 

Ray Bourque

I believe he is the second greatest defenseman of all time. No other defenseman was as great for so long as he was. 5 Norris trophies and a calder. He was a superstar right when he joined the league.

Was top 5 or below in norris trophy voting 13 times And was atleas top 10 in Norris voting for 23 years, basically his whole career. Was also great offensively. Had great longevity and was a top 10 dman his whole career

 

( Only NHL players btw, so no Valeri Kharlamov)

[yave1964]

I would have to go with Richard. The Rocket defined French Canadian hockey as nobody did before.

 

I have an unusual one to put up, not necessarily getting my vote but IMHO better than Bourque and Hasek, Marty Brodeur.

 

  Brodeur holds about every goalie record known to man, most will never be broken unless someone plays for an eternity. Yes, he hung on too long here at the end of his career but when the dust settles he likely, IMHO opinion has to be considered as a top ten of all time. I was never a fan (he swept my Wings in 1994, I never forgave him, lol) and he played in the East when my Wings were out west, but he was truly a great. When the dust settles this little Blues thing will be quickly forgotten and he will go down in history as an all time great.

[JagerMeister]

I would have to go with Richard. The Rocket defined French Canadian hockey as nobody did before.

 

I have an unusual one to put up, not necessarily getting my vote but IMHO better than Bourque and Hasek, Marty Brodeur.

 

  Brodeur holds about every goalie record known to man, most will never be broken unless someone plays for an eternity. Yes, he hung on too long here at the end of his career but when the dust settles he likely, IMHO opinion has to be considered as a top ten of all time. I was never a fan (he swept my Wings in 1994, I never forgave him, lol) and he played in the East when my Wings were out west, but he was truly a great. When the dust settles this little Blues thing will be quickly forgotten and he will go down in history as an all time great.

Interesting, some dont even consider Marty a top 5 goalie of all time, I do. However i do not think he is better then Hasek IMHO. Hasek in his prime never had the fortune of playing with a great team and never had scott stevens and neidermayer by his side. So ofc Hasek wont get as much wins playing on one of the worst teams. Hasek won his Hart trophies over the likes of Jagr. 

[yave1964]

I have heard the argument that Marty was a compiler, a long lasting vet who put up numbers simply because he played so long.

 

Bull.

 

688 wins. 124 shut outs. 4 Vezina trophies, top five another 8 times. 3 Stanley cup wins, 2 other times his team made the finals. 1,259 games in net.

 

He has 300 more wins than Hasek who played into his 40s. The closest active player in wins is Bobby Lu  who is 301 behind him. An elite talent, shoulda quit a couple of years ago but the greatest goalie of all time.

[mojo1917]

If I had to win one game to save the world, Martin Broduer is in the net for me, that guy was a total gamer.  F Patty Roy,  Martin "*******" Broduer as he was known in our house is the best big game goalie I've ever seen. He was the reason those Devils teams won, period, blah blah blah, the trap, Stevens, Arnott, Elias...those guys would have won diddly/poo if not for 31...

[ruxpin]

Interesting, some dont even consider Marty a top 5 goalie of all time, I do. However i do not think he is better then Hasek IMHO. Hasek in his prime never had the fortune of playing with a great team and never had scott stevens and neidermayer by his side. So ofc Hasek wont get as much wins playing on one of the worst teams. Hasek won his Hart trophies over the likes of Jagr.

I put Brodeur above Roy and Roy above Hasek.

I'm not sure who the some are who don't think Brodeur is top five goalie but they're probably climate change /evolution /round earth deniers who think Wayne Gretzky would have been better suited in a third line checking role.

But even you said you believed he's top five. Just that Hasek was better. I respect the argument, I just don't buy it.

Yeah, Hasek carried some poor teams and won some personal awards. But some of that just says the Sabres weren't very good.

For me, Brodeur and all the career records and the Devils Cups they don't even sniff without him. I go with Brodeur.

Roy above Hasek for similar reasons, but I think he falls just short of Brodeur. I would entertain Roy > Brodeur a lot more easily than Hasek being better than either one.

And Hasek, as good as he was, doesn't make my top ten players.

For me, it's probably between Hull and Bellevue. Unless you want to sneak Messier in there. I'd definitely consider that.

[ruxpin]

If I had to win one game to save the world, Martin Broduer is in the net for me, that guy was a total gamer. F Patty Roy, Martin "******" Broduer as he was known in our house is the best big game goalie I've ever seen. He was the reason those Devils teams won, period, blah blah blah, the trap, Stevens, Arnott, Elias...those guys would have won diddly/poo if not for 31...

This X 1000

[ruxpin]

By the way, I liked Ray Bourque. I have mad respect for the guy.

I haven't actually put together a top ten, but I don't think he would have come to mind let alone made it. Let alone #5.

Orr is already there, but I don't think Bourque is even next among defensemen. Lindstrom before Bourque for me. Then I'd have to think about the order of Bourque, Coffey, Stevens, and Chelios.

[B21]

Right now I go Richard.....

[JagerMeister]

I have heard the argument that Marty was a compiler, a long lasting vet who put up numbers simply because he played so long.

 

Bull.

 

688 wins. 124 shut outs. 4 Vezina trophies, top five another 8 times. 3 Stanley cup wins, 2 other times his team made the finals. 1,259 games in net.

 

He has 300 more wins than Hasek who played into his 40s. The closest active player in wins is Bobby Lu  who is 301 behind him. An elite talent, shoulda quit a couple of years ago but the greatest goalie of all time.

Lol, in other boards i have actually seen people say he was just an "average" goalie that played on really good teams. The first part is BS, but he did play on some great teams that Hasek never had during his prime, and Brodeur has more wins because he was on far better teams, ofc if your on a losing team you wont win as much. Also, you have to remember that Brodeur played 1266 games compared to Haseks 735. Hasek also won his vezina trophies over Roy AND Brodeur. He won his Harts and Pearsons over Jagr. Roy and Brodeur dont even have any of those trophies.

[JagerMeister]

By the way, I liked Ray Bourque. I have mad respect for the guy.

I haven't actually put together a top ten, but I don't think he would have come to mind let alone made it. Let alone #5.

Orr is already there, but I don't think Bourque is even next among defensemen. Lindstrom before Bourque for me. Then I'd have to think about the order of Bourque, Coffey, Stevens, and Chelios.

It completely makes sense to put Lidstrom over Bourque. But if Lidstrom is the second best dman of all time, Bourque would be third, followed by Doug Harvey and then the rest

But here is why IMO Bourque should be ahead of lidstrom

 

 

 

     AS-8,Calder-2

      AS-17,Norris-8

    AS-6,Byng-10,Norris-6

      AS-6,Byng-14,Norris-6

     AS-1,Byng-4,Hart-12,Norris-2

AS-1,Byng-2,Norris-2  NHL  AS-1

,Byng-2,Hart-9,Norris-2    

AS-1,Byng-2,Hart-10,Norris-1

  AS-1,Byng-3,Norris-1,Smythe-1 

  AS-1,Byng-2,Hart-8,Norris-1

   AS-5,Byng-4,Norris-6  AS-1,

Byng-10,Hart-7,Norris-1

   AS-1,Byng-6,Hart-6,Norris-1  AS-1

,Byng-4,Hart-4,Norris-1

    AS-3,AS-2,Byng-5,Hart-17,Norris-3 

  AS-4,AS-2,Byng-5,Hart-17,Norris-4

  AS-1,Byng-2,Hart-19,Norris-1

 

   

 

    AS-1,Calder-1,Norris-4

    AS-4,AS-2,Hart-14,Norris-4

    AS-1,Hart-15,Norris-2

    AS-3,AS-2,Byng-16,Norris-3

    AS-1,Hart-5,Norris-3

    AS-1,Hart-5,Norris-2

    AS-4,AS-2,Hart-10,Norris-4   

 AS-1,Byng-8,Hart-2,Norris-1

     AS-1,Hart-8,Norris-1      AS-4,AS-2,Norris-4

       AS-1,Hart-2,Norris-1

     AS-1,Hart-4,Norris-1      

     AS-1,Byng-8,Hart-6,Norris-1

     AS-3,AS-2,Norris-3

AS-1,Clancy-1,Hart-13,Norris-2

     AS-1,Byng-17,Norris-2

     AS-1,Hart-11,Norris-2   

   AS-7,Byng-10,Norris-7       

AS-6,Byng-10,Norris-7

  AS-3,AS-2,Byng-9,Norris-3

AS-6,Byng-13,Norris-7

  AS-6,Byng-13,Norris-7   

 AS-6,Byng-13,Norris-7

   AS-1,Byng-25,Norris-2  

 

They both were great for a long time, But Bourque was great the moment he stepped into the league, Lidstrom needed 4 years to get a norris vote.

That and the competition in which Bourque was getting his Norris trophies was much better then Lidstroms.

Lidstrom didnt get a norris trophy until 2000, So he never had to face a prime leetch, stevens, Chelios Coffey like Bourque did

[JagerMeister]

If I had to win one game to save the world, Martin Broduer is in the net for me, that guy was a total gamer.  F Patty Roy,  Martin "******" Broduer as he was known in our house is the best big game goalie I've ever seen. He was the reason those Devils teams won, period, blah blah blah, the trap, Stevens, Arnott, Elias...those guys would have won diddly/poo if not for 31...

And mArtin Brodeur wouldnt have as much wins without elias, arnott, stevens, neidermayer and all those other great players that were on that NJD powerhouse

[ruxpin]

@JagerMeister

 

I forgot Doug Harvey. Good call there, too.

 

You make a pretty good argument for Bourque among defensemen.  Putting Orr ahead of them, they are a good 2/2A, I think.  And I think a reasonable argument could be made for either one being the "2."  I suppose it depends upon what one is using as criteria and probably also some subjectivity (saw one more than another; liked one player's team more than the other, etc. etc.).

 

As for the #5, I don't think I put either one of them there.  It could just be part of the difficulty in comparing forwards and defensemen (not to mention then throwing goalies in the mix).  It's probably why--for me--I have difficulty with Orr when talking about the top 3 (assuming he's in your top three).  Whenever I'm in a discussion of best, someone always makes a very impassioned and, I think, well-argued case for Orr.  It might just be the forward/defenseman thing that makes me reject him as #1.  Fairly or not.

 

Really interesting question you posited, @JagerMeister!

[ruxpin]

And mArtin Brodeur wouldnt have as much wins without elias, arnott, stevens, neidermayer and all those other great players that were on that NJD powerhouse

 

 

Agreed.  But he kept on winning as each of those moved on (with the exception, I guess, of Elias, but I would venture to guess you might agree that this was even more a clear cut case of the forward benefiting from the goalie more than the other way around).

 

Just in case I wasn't clear before (was on my phone; and I don't pay any more attention to what I say than anyone else pays attention to me--which is to say "not at all"), I don't think the case for Hasek is absurd or anything.  My derision before was toward those who would argue Brodeur isn't even in the top 5 goalies (you were clear that wasn't your position).   I just think that's more Jersey-envy than anything else.

 

I don't know.  I guess I'm just in the camp with those people who say "If I had one big game and could play anyone in their prime" my answer would be Brodeur.

[JagerMeister]

@JagerMeister

 

I forgot Doug Harvey. Good call there, too.

 

You make a pretty good argument for Bourque among defensemen.  Putting Orr ahead of them, they are a good 2/2A, I think.  And I think a reasonable argument could be made for either one being the "2."  I suppose it depends upon what one is using as criteria and probably also some subjectivity (saw one more than another; liked one player's team more than the other, etc. etc.).

 

As for the #5, I don't think I put either one of them there.  It could just be part of the difficulty in comparing forwards and defensemen (not to mention then throwing goalies in the mix).  It's probably why--for me--I have difficulty with Orr when talking about the top 3 (assuming he's in your top three).  Whenever I'm in a discussion of best, someone always makes a very impassioned and, I think, well-argued case for Orr.  It might just be the forward/defenseman thing that makes me reject him as #1.  Fairly or not.

 

Really interesting question you posited, @JagerMeister!

Thanks, Its pretty difficult for me to decide my number 5th spot as well.  But, if you have noticed, i am very biased towards Hasek Ik most people wouldnt put him in their top 10 let alone top 5, But i believe he had the greatest PEAK for a goalie along with Roy's 3 conn smythes. But Brodeur was better for a longer time then Hasek. 

[JagerMeister]

Agreed.  But he kept on winning as each of those moved on (with the exception, I guess, of Elias, but I would venture to guess you might agree that this was even more a clear cut case of the forward benefiting from the goalie more than the other way around).

 

Just in case I wasn't clear before (was on my phone; and I don't pay any more attention to what I say than anyone else pays attention to me--which is to say "not at all"), I don't think the case for Hasek is absurd or anything.  My derision before was toward those who would argue Brodeur isn't even in the top 5 goalies (you were clear that wasn't your position).   I just think that's more Jersey-envy than anything else.

 

I don't know.  I guess I'm just in the camp with those people who say "If I had one big game and could play anyone in their prime" my answer would be Brodeur.

I dont blame people though for thinking he isnt a top 5 goalie even if i think otherwise...I mean he did have some of the best defenseman ever by his side

[ruxpin]

I dont blame people though for thinking he isnt a top 5 goalie even if i think otherwise.

 

Maybe, but then the question becomes what goalie you're putting in place of him.  In this case, you can already assume Hasek and Roy.  We need three more better than Brodeur.  And I don't think numbers + Cups + longevity, etc. support anyone else.  Some may have parts and for a shorter period of time, but staying good for a long time has to be part of the equation, doesn't it?

 

For example, as a Flyer fan, I might want to argue for Parent.  Clearly, for a couple of years he was as dominant as anyone has ever been.  Comparing numbers across generations is difficult so forget that for a moment.  It's just that as good as Parent was, it was only for a small fraction of the time that Brodeur was.  So *I* would rule him out as better than Brodeur.   (Maybe it's the definition of "better."  Maybe people are simply using different measuring sticks, huh?).

 

Dryden -- kind of the same thing.  Then with Dryden you also add in the "great defense" thing.  I really thought the world of Dryden back in the day.  I might argue for him for top 5.  But the duration of career/peak, etc. and the sheer volume of numbers I have to go with Brodeur.

 

Sawchuk?  He has to be top 5.  I guess some would put him above Brodeur.  I think that's a really hard case to make.  I suppose one could say "yeah, have Marty play without a mask!"

 

Plante?   Yeah, top 5.  

 

I could see someone putting Sawchuk and Plante up there above Brodeur (I would strongly disagree, but I'd entertain the argument) To me, you have to put a Dryden or Parent or someone above Brodeur to knock him out of the top 5, and I just don't buy that.

 

My top 5 (and clearly you'd rearrange the top 3.  I'm okay with that)

1. Brodeur

2. Roy

3. Hasek 

4. Sawchuk

5. Plante

 

What do you think?

[JagerMeister]

Maybe, but then the question becomes what goalie you're putting in place of him.  In this case, you can already assume Hasek and Roy.  We need three more better than Brodeur.  And I don't think numbers + Cups + longevity, etc. support anyone else.  Some may have parts and for a shorter period of time, but staying good for a long time has to be part of the equation, doesn't it?

 

For example, as a Flyer fan, I might want to argue for Parent.  Clearly, for a couple of years he was as dominant as anyone has ever been.  Comparing numbers across generations is difficult so forget that for a moment.  It's just that as good as Parent was, it was only for a small fraction of the time that Brodeur was.  So *I* would rule him out as better than Brodeur.   (Maybe it's the definition of "better."  Maybe people are simply using different measuring sticks, huh?).

 

Dryden -- kind of the same thing.  Then with Dryden you also add in the "great defense" thing.  I really thought the world of Dryden back in the day.  I might argue for him for top 5.  But the duration of career/peak, etc. and the sheer volume of numbers I have to go with Brodeur.

 

Sawchuk?  He has to be top 5.  I guess some would put him above Brodeur.  I think that's a really hard case to make.  I suppose one could say "yeah, have Marty play without a mask!"

 

Plante?   Yeah, top 5.  

 

I could see someone putting Sawchuk and Plante up there above Brodeur (I would strongly disagree, but I'd entertain the argument) To me, you have to put a Dryden or Parent or someone above Brodeur to knock him out of the top 5, and I just don't buy that.

 

My top 5 (and clearly you'd rearrange the top 3.  I'm okay with that)

1. Brodeur

2. Roy

3. Hasek 

4. Sawchuk

5. Plante

 

What do you think?

I think i would put Brodeur at around 5-3. I honestly dont know much about Plante and Sawchuk to make a proper list 

[yave1964]

Maybe, but then the question becomes what goalie you're putting in place of him.  In this case, you can already assume Hasek and Roy.  We need three more better than Brodeur.  And I don't think numbers + Cups + longevity, etc. support anyone else.  Some may have parts and for a shorter period of time, but staying good for a long time has to be part of the equation, doesn't it?

 

For example, as a Flyer fan, I might want to argue for Parent.  Clearly, for a couple of years he was as dominant as anyone has ever been.  Comparing numbers across generations is difficult so forget that for a moment.  It's just that as good as Parent was, it was only for a small fraction of the time that Brodeur was.  So *I* would rule him out as better than Brodeur.   (Maybe it's the definition of "better."  Maybe people are simply using different measuring sticks, huh?).

 

Dryden -- kind of the same thing.  Then with Dryden you also add in the "great defense" thing.  I really thought the world of Dryden back in the day.  I might argue for him for top 5.  But the duration of career/peak, etc. and the sheer volume of numbers I have to go with Brodeur.

 

Sawchuk?  He has to be top 5.  I guess some would put him above Brodeur.  I think that's a really hard case to make.  I suppose one could say "yeah, have Marty play without a mask!"

 

Plante?   Yeah, top 5.  

 

I could see someone putting Sawchuk and Plante up there above Brodeur (I would strongly disagree, but I'd entertain the argument) To me, you have to put a Dryden or Parent or someone above Brodeur to knock him out of the top 5, and I just don't buy that.

 

My top 5 (and clearly you'd rearrange the top 3.  I'm okay with that)

1. Brodeur

2. Roy

3. Hasek 

4. Sawchuk

5. Plante

 

What do you think?

That is my order too.

 

The thing with Marty, he has 690 career wins, second all time is Roy with 550. Roy is elite with a couple of cups,

 

That means Marty is 140 games better than elite, with more cups. No way no how do I put anyone except Brodeur in first place. The rest might be open for debate but number one is clear cut.

[JagerMeister]

That is my order too.

 

The thing with Marty, he has 690 career wins, second all time is Roy with 550. Roy is elite with a couple of cups,

 

That means Marty is 140 games better than elite, with more cups. No way no how do I put anyone except Brodeur in first place. The rest might be open for debate but number one is clear cut.

It isnt clear cut at all. You seem to ignore all the points i make. How many other goalies won 2 harts and 3 pearsons along with 6 vezinas? How many NHL player won 3 Conn smythe's? I would Put Hasek and Roy above Brodeur. Brodeur has 1200 games. Hasek is still number 1 in save percentage despite playing with Buffalo during his prime. He was a brick wall, And Roy was probably the best goalie to take in the playoffs. The accolades these 2 posses is more impressive then Brodeurs. Brodeur is still imo a top 5 goalie of all time, but he definitely did benefit from the teams he played on. Imagine Roy or Hasek with Stevens and Neidermayer by their side.

[ruxpin]

That is my order too.

 

The thing with Marty, he has 690 career wins, second all time is Roy with 550. Roy is elite with a couple of cups,

 

That means Marty is 140 games better than elite, with more cups. No way no how do I put anyone except Brodeur in first place. The rest might be open for debate but number one is clear cut.

 

 

i agree with all of that.

 

I should probably say, though, that my opinion on Brodeur may be based on--as a Flyer fan--seeing him so damn much.  8 times a year plus playoffs.

 

I promise that isn't some pathetic attempt to say "I've seen him more, so I probably know him better."  It's more an admission that man, that guy killed my team for two decades while seemingly not even having to get out of bed.   Maybe that skews my opinion.  But objectively, it's hard to argue with the numbers.

 

As a Flyer fan, I also have memories of Buffalo bouncing us out of the playoffs a few times in embarrassing style.  But often, I remember being more concerned with their forwards being faster than ours and seizing on every stinking mistake.  There were series that we barely got into their zone.  Of course, once we got past their skaters, there was Hasek with seemingly extra limbs flailing around stopping whatever.  It's possible that I never saw him as quite the brick wall I saw in Brodeur because we didn't get close enough to that wall as often.

[ruxpin]

It isnt clear cut at all. You seem to ignore all the points i make. How many other goalies won 2 harts and 3 pearsons along with 6 vezinas? How many NHL player won 3 Conn smythe's? I would Put Hasek and Roy above Brodeur. Brodeur has 1200 games. Hasek is still number 1 in save percentage despite playing with Buffalo during his prime. He was a brick wall, And Roy was probably the best goalie to take in the playoffs. The accolades these 2 posses is more impressive then Brodeurs. Brodeur is still imo a top 5 goalie of all time, but he definitely did benefit from the teams he played on. Imagine Roy or Hasek with Stevens and Neidermayer by their side.

 

Funny you used "brick wall."  I was typing as you were posting and we both went to the same terminology.    

 

Personally, I think despite how good Stevens and Neidermayer were (I'd be foolish to argue otherwise), I do think they were helped by system and by the goalie behind them.  Clearly, though (and to your argument), they were way better than what Buffalo was icing.

[JagerMeister]

Funny you used "brick wall."  I was typing as you were posting and we both went to the same terminology.    

 

Personally, I think despite how good Stevens and Neidermayer were (I'd be foolish to argue otherwise), I do think they were helped by system and by the goalie behind them.  Clearly, though (and to your argument), they were way better than what Buffalo was icing.

I mean, im fine with people putting Brodeur as number 1, but it isnt clear cut at all. You still have Hasek, Plante and Roy that have a good argument for 1st place

[yave1964]

I mean, im fine with people putting Brodeur as number 1, but it isnt clear cut at all. You still have Hasek, Plante and Roy that have a good argument for 1st place

Hasek has an amazing amount of hardware.

 

So does Marty. Including 3 cups.

 

And over 300 more wins. That is huge and insurmountable.

[ruxpin]

I mean, im fine with people putting Brodeur as number 1, but it isnt clear cut at all. You still have Hasek, Plante and Roy that have a good argument for 1st place

 

Yeah, I'm with you on the "clear cut" objection.