JagerMeister Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I mean, compared to the leafs, look at the best player every team has had in their franchise Kings, DionneOilers, GretzkyPenguins, LemieuxCanadiens, Richard ( and there are like 10 players i can name that are better than any Player the Leafs have ever had)Sabres, HasekLightning, MSLDucks, SelanneCanucks, SedinsRangers, LeetchIslanders, BossyBruins, OrrRed wings, HoweAvalanche, SakicHurricanes, FrancisFlames, IginlaSenators, AlfieCoyotes, HawerchukCapitals, OviFlyers, ParentDevils, BrodeurPanthers, BureStars, ModanoThrashers, Kovalchuk So, can you name one Leafs player that are better than any of these players... When will the Toronto Maple Leafs have another generational type player, the closest they came to that was Frank Mahovlich, but that was in the 1960s...I left out the far newer teams like Minnesota, CBJ etcBut even then, a fairly new team like Ottawa got a sundin type player in Alfie..and it took them only a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 @JagerMeister I think Dave Keon was better than Frank M....just my opinion, but find an older Leaf fan that really remembers the last cup win in 67.....and they would probably agree with me.....BUT...I do agree, he is not a true superstar. Now, Teeder Kennedy, different story, he was a true superstar...just like Johnny Bower and Syl Apps...all 3 superstars in their own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 @JagerMeister I think Dave Keon was better than Frank M....just my opinion, but find an older Leaf fan that really remembers the last cup win in 67.....and they would probably agree with me.....BUT...I do agree, he is not a true superstar. Now, Teeder Kennedy, different story, he was a true superstar...just like Johnny Bower and Syl Apps...all 3 superstars in their own right.Ah, forgot those 3, however...that was all the way back in the 1940s...still pretty sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I mean, compared to the leafs, look at the best player every team has had in their franchise So, can you name one Leafs player that are better than any of these players... Mats Sundin or Doug Gilmour would be as good as some of the players you listed above. (ie: Comparable to Kovalchuk, Modano, Alfie, Sedins, MSL, etc.) The better question is: When will the Leafs have the best player in the NHL? In 100 years, they have never had the best player in the game. In THN (The Hockey News), the Leafs best player is usually ranked somewhere around 35th. (Lately that has been Kessel.) Until the Leafs have a player that is ranked #1 by THN, I will not consider them to have the best player in the game. If the Leafs got McDavid (for argument sake) and McDavid became the next Sidney Crosby (another huge and unlikely IF), then it would mark the first time in Leafs history that the team has had the best player in the game, and had someone at that level in their prime. All the dozens of players that have passed through Toronto at the tail end of their NHL career don't count. ie: Lindros, Francis, Mogilny, etc...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom Didn't want to start a thread for it....but I'm FLAT out DISGUSTED that the CBC is not showing the Leafs and the Sens tonight. I mean really, it's a huge rivalry, the battle of Ontario is always a fun thing to watch...BUT here we have the Sens in a life and death struggle to grab the last playoff spot....and they choose the Habs vs Sharks....REALLY??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 Mats Sundin or Doug Gilmour would be as good as some of the players you listed above. (ie: Comparable to Kovalchuk, Modano, Alfie, Sedins, MSL, etc.) The better question is: When will the Leafs have the best player in the NHL? In 100 years, they have never had the best player. In THN (The Hockey News), the Leafs best player is usually ranked somewhere around 35th. Until the Leafs have a player that is ranked #1 by THN, I will not consider them to have the best player in the game.Doug gilmour is, he had a pretty short peak himself. Mats sundin was not as good as Kovalchuk, sedins, Alfie, or MSL when those players where at their peak, but Sundin had the consistency. Its arguable i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom Didn't want to start a thread for it....but I'm FLAT out DISGUSTED that the CBC is not showing the Leafs and the Sens tonight. I mean really, it's a huge rivalry, the battle of Ontario is always a fun thing to watch...BUT here we have the Sens in a life and death struggle to grab the last playoff spot....and they choose the Habs vs Sharks....REALLY??? Wow. I didn't know it wasn't on TV. That sucks. I blame Kessel and his adversarial relationship with the media. Did you know that Ottawa plays Toronto THREE times before the season is out? ie: That's 6 points for Ottawa and a playoff spot right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom It's on Sportsnet in Ontario, but the CBC really missed the boat on this...unless Sportsnet has the contractual right to broadcast his particular game... but I've just never seen that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Doug gilmour is, he had a pretty short peak himself. Mats sundin was not as good as Kovalchuk, sedins, Alfie, or MSL when those players where at their peak, but Sundin had the consistency. Its arguable i guess. I think if you asked those players, they would disagree with you. Sundin was a very good all-around player (not the best in the game but very good) that played on a lot of lousy Toronto teams with absolutely no support. Mogilny is the only winger of any significance that Sundin ever played with on the Leafs. Sundin was equally effective at scoring goals and making plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 I think if you asked those players, they would disagree with you. Sundin was a very good all-around player (not the best in the game but very good) that played on a lot of lousy Toronto teams with absolutely no support. Mogilny is the only winger of any significance that Sundin ever played with on the Leafs. Sundin was equally effective at scoring goals and making plays.Alfie was better than Sundin defensively, not as good offensively as Sundin though. And thats pretty darn impressive considering that Alfie has played with the best all star and spezza. But Alfie peaked higher offensively while playing superb defense. Martin St Louis has been very consistent just like Sundin, He is not a ppg, but Sundin also benefited from starting his career in a higher scoring era (early 90s) Martin St Louis has also had Stammer and VLC but has peaked higher with 2 art ross trophies. The sedins clearly peaked higher as well, but Sundin`s consistency edges them out here. Edge to Sundin Kovalchuk peaked higher again... this one i will leave a question mark, he left his prime to go to the KHL Honestly, it all depends which you value more, Peak seasons or consistency. And ik Sundin got 114 points in 92, but even then, he was not even top ten in scoring, where as in the 2000s, usually only a couple players would get 100 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 @JagerMeister However, the 114 pts that Mats put up in 92 was as a part of the Nords, with a young Joe Sakic on his line. His best production as a Leaf was 94 pts in 97...and no, I didn't have to look that up...lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 @WordsOfWisdom It's on Sportsnet in Ontario, but the CBC really missed the boat on this...unless Sportsnet has the contractual right to broadcast his particular game... but I've just never seen that before. Which is another way of saying: "nobody in Canada wants to watch this game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 @JagerMeister However, the 114 pts that Mats put up in 92 was as a part of the Nords, with a young Joe Sakic on his line. His best production as a Leaf was 94 pts in 97...and no, I didn't have to look that up...lol. yep. Honestly, its his consistency that puts him above players that have peaked Better than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Alfie was better than Sundin defensively, not as good offensively as Sundin though. And thats pretty darn impressive considering that Alfie has played with the best all star and spezza. But Alfie peaked higher offensively while playing superb defense. Martin St Louis has been very consistent just like Sundin, He is not a ppg, but Sundin also benefited from starting his career in a higher scoring era (early 90s) Martin St Louis has also had Stammer and VLC but has peaked higher with 2 art ross trophies. The sedins clearly peaked higher as well, but Sundin`s consistency edges them out here. Edge to Sundin Kovalchuk peaked higher again... this one i will leave a question mark, he left his prime to go to the KHL Honestly, it all depends which you value more, Peak seasons or consistency. And ik Sundin got 114 points in 92, but even then, he was not even top ten in scoring, where as in the 2000s, usually only a couple players would get 100 points. I think consistency needs to count for something too. Having one or two good years does not make one a better player than someone who did it for the better part of two decades. The Sedins have each other -- the ultimate chemistry in line mates. How effective would either Sedin twin be without the other? That would be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I understand the desire for the #1 guy. I would want him, too. But given the history over the last 40 years or so, even top 5-10 would be a great thing in Toronto. They need to stop trading picks for crap (I'm looking at you, Kessel). Gee, I don't know what other team I've said the same thing about. @JagerMeister To answer your thread title's question, it might be a long time yet. On the other hand, to they still have their pick this year? If yes, they are in position to come away with a really very good player. And, you never know, the ping pong balls could ping or pong their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Interesting Mats Sundin factoid: "He is the career leader in games played for Canadian teams." -- Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Which is another way of saying: "nobody in Canada wants to watch this game". I disagree, this game has a TON of likability to it...so many story lines, the Sens themselves, the Hamburgler, the sudden explosion of the Sens secondary scoring...how pitiful the Leafs look....it's quite captivating....very ood...the CBC announcers are doing the game, and they are cutting to Coach's Corner, exactly like a CBC telecast, just not on CBC...I think part of it is that Sportsnet actually own rights to the Leafs now...but I thought it did not start till next year....that must not be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I understand the desire for the #1 guy. I would want him, too. But given the history over the last 40 years or so, even top 5-10 would be a great thing in Toronto. They need to stop trading picks for crap (I'm looking at you, Kessel). the ping pong balls could ping or pong their way. I remember when the Kessel trade happened. Most fans thought it was a good move initially, but I wasn't one of them. I never regarded Kessel very highly in Boston, and I considered it to be a red flag when the Bruins wanted him out of there. Teams don't give up on good goal scorers unless there are major problems in the dressing room with team chemistry. The Bruins knew long ago what type of guy Kessel is, and they managed to dump him on the Leafs and win that trade outright. The Leafs were fleeced. Now that Kessel has pretty much burned another bridge, I'm wondering what GM in their right mind would want a one dimensional, lazy, toxic forward with no track record of success, no leadership, and no ability to present well to the media. I know what I'd like to see Gary Bettman do with his ping pong balls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 The Hamburgler in dire stratis, 2 quick goals allowed to the Leafs...let's how he does under scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 The Hamburgler in dire stratis, 2 quick goals allowed to the Leafs...let's how he does under scrutiny. It's the other way. It's 2-0 Senators. I actually pulled Elliot today. Good thing, huh?But at about 6:45 I decided to do the same with Hammonds. I really sat and hovered over the click before doing it, too, but decided given the score between aziz and me that there was too much to risk vs. what could be gained. I bet you I miss out on a shutout, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 @ruxpin Better look again....3-2 Sens right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 @ruxpin Better look again....3-2 Sens right now... LOL Yeah, I was just coming back here to correct myself. Man that happened quick, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 @ruxpin Very quick, probably the first time Hammond has faced this much adversity....the Sens just killed off a penalty though, so he seems to be rebounding nicely. He made some nice saves during that pp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 @ruxpin Very quick, probably the first time Hammond has faced this much adversity....the Sens just killed off a penalty though, so he seems to be rebounding nicely. He made some nice saves during that pp. It was tied 4-4 fairly late in his last game (Bruins). I'm wondering if he's starting to come back down to earth a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 I think consistency needs to count for something too. Having one or two good years does not make one a better player than someone who did it for the better part of two decades. The Sedins have each other -- the ultimate chemistry in line mates. How effective would either Sedin twin be without the other? That would be interesting. Actually, henrik sedin won one of his art ross trophies while the other was injured. But at their best, who do you take? Martin st louis or sundin? I think the answer is pretty clear. Its kind of like mario lemieux vs gordie howe to a lesser extent. Lemieux was clearly Better at his peak. But Howe was great for so long it cancels out the others peak . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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