OccamsRazor Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 For me it comes down to this: do you believe you can win a Stanley Cup with Giroux and Jake as your top dollar forwards? They have a very strong chemistry together and are developing into leaders. If you believe you can win with that duo, it makes sense to me to lock them up long-term as your highest paid guys. Enjoy the cost certainty for 8 years, while you draft, develop, and provide the right supporting cast. I believe we can win it all with G and Jake. So I am ok paying top dollar to keep Jake around as G's wingman for the next 8 years. Yes and that 8mill price tag may cost you other players....and that would be ok i guess if you have the kids in the win to take the players you lose place....then we would be back to the issue of putting pressure on kids before they are ready and maybe rushing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 $4.5M would be a bargain for a young Hartnell. Not so much for a Hartnell on the downside (even if he's still a productive player at this point). Yeah but then you're talking about investing almost 21 mill to the top line alone....that is a lot of bread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 So, Umburglar, then? Maybe a JVR? Umberger no. JVR, probably no. I'm thinking of someone who plays well without the puck, wins board battles, has a quick accurate shot. Someone who creates space for the the other two to do their thing and then is there for the finish. I just have a very real - and statistically born out - fear that they don't have the punch to win a Cup without "pure goal scorer to be named later." I have the same fear. I love Raffl but I don't think he fits that role. Gagner, we'll just have to see but I'm skeptical. But I don't expect them to be seriously competing for a Cup in the next couple of years so there's still time to find "that guy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Yeah but then you're talking about investing almost 21 mill to the top line alone....that is a lot of bread... Well, where are you going to find legit top line players, or top pairing D, or #1 G on the cheap? Keep in mind, the cap tends to go up. Ryan O'Reilly just signed for $7.5M per year. If he's worth that so is Jake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 This. Very. Thread. Yeah. This thread is not reality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Yeah but then you're talking about investing almost 21 mill to the top line alone....that is a lot of bread... Well, where are you going to find legit top line players, or top pairing D, or #1 G on the cheap? Keep in mind, the cap tends to go up. Ryan O'Reilly just signed for $7.5M per year. If he's worth that so is Jake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Well, where are you going to find legit top line players, or top pairing D, or #1 G on the cheap? Keep in mind, the cap tends to go up. Ryan O'Reilly just signed for $7.5M per year. If he's worth that so is Jake. I don't know if that is the best example of a desperate team in rebuild mode. Plus O' Reilly can play LW or Center (and good on faceoffs) and Jake only plays RW. I'd be ok with Jake getting 7mill per...i wouldn't off that i'd start with 6 and work towards 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Umberger no. JVR, probably no. I'm thinking of someone who plays well without the puck, wins board battles, has a quick accurate shot. Someone who creates space for the the other two to do their thing and then is there for the finish. Obviously not either of those two (thus the ninja). But we got Umburglar for Hartnell and dealt JVR, who is a "pure goal scorer" who has put up 30 goals (but that -33 for a guy who scored 27 last year is UG-LY). I have the same fear. I love Raffl but I don't think he fits that role. Gagner, we'll just have to see but I'm skeptical. But I don't expect them to be seriously competing for a Cup in the next couple of years so there's still time to find "that guy". I just leery of doling out $7+M for 5-7 years to Voracek with the idea that sometime in Y4, 5 or 6 you're getting your money's worth if another piece happens along. The Hartnell trade just looks worse and worse as time goes on. Yeah. This thread is not reality... No, it is a comment thread on a message board in which people post their ideas/thought and others respond to it. Again, odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Ryan O'Reilly just signed for $7.5M per year. If he's worth that so is Jake. Ryan O'Reilly isn't worth that. It's a HUGE mistake for Buffalo. HUGE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 just leery of doling out $7+M for 5-7 years to Voracek with the idea that sometime in Y4, 5 or 6 you're getting your money's worth if another piece happens along. Like Brelic said, you have decide who is part of your core and who is not. I think Jake is and should continue to be. If he walks then that just means that you have to wait and hope that another piece will happen along to replace the piece you just lost. Right now, the Flyers do not have anyone in the system who projects to be a top line winger. Konecny is the only one that seems like even a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Like Brelic said, you have decide who is part of your core and who is not. I think Jake is and should continue to be. If he walks then that just means that you have to wait and hope that another piece will happen along to replace the piece you just lost. Right now, the Flyers do not have anyone in the system who projects to be a top line winger. Konecny is the only one that seems like even a possibility. Brelic also said that in all likelihood Voracek just put up his career year. Moreover, at no point do I suggest "letting him walk" nor that anything would "happen along". I've said - repeatedly - that my preference is to sign him. I would like him to be a significant part of the core. But I'm saying at the same time, "if money is all that you love, then that's what you will receive."* If he wants to "command" $7.5-8M I would deal him for significant assets NOT "let something happen along." If, as you say, they aren't going to seriously compete for the next several years, what would be the harm in that? It's not like they're two years removed from a Cup Final and blowing up the core. They're in "one playoff round in three years" mode. * thank you, Princess Leia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Konecny is the only one that seems like even a possibility. I came here to say this and also: "what the hell took so long in arriving at the obvious answer?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I came here to say this and also: "what the hell took so long in arriving at the obvious answer?!" Well, that player is likely back in Junior next season and probably at least two if not three years away from even being considered a potential top line left wing for the Flyers. They've already got 13 forwards signed for next season and that's not even counting Laughton, Cousins, Leier, etc. I'm not sure I'm giving Jake $7.5M a year for the next 5-7 in the hopes that Konecny is "the answer" 2-3 years from now. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Brelic also said that in all likelihood Voracek just put up his career year. Moreover, at no point do I suggest "letting him walk" nor that anything would "happen along". I've said - repeatedly - that my preference is to sign him. I would like him to be a significant part of the core. But I'm saying at the same time, "if money is all that you love, then that's what you will receive."* If he wants to "command" $7.5-8M I would deal him for significant assets NOT "let something happen along." If, as you say, they aren't going to seriously compete for the next several years, what would be the harm in that? It's not like they're two years removed from a Cup Final and blowing up the core. They're in "one playoff round in three years" mode. * thank you, Princess Leia Obviously this all just comes down to us disagreeing on what Jake appears to be worth. I think he's easily a top 5 RW in the league, arguably a top 5 winger period. To me that's worth $7.5M. $8M may be pushing it, but that could change depending on how things (cap up/down, production up/down) go next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I came here to say this and also: "what the hell took so long in arriving at the obvious answer?!" What is the obvious answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Konecny is "the answer" 2-3 years from now. I know he is slight, but I think he only may need another year in Jr. He has to put on at least 15 lbs though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 What is the obvious answer? 42? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Q & A with... Jakub Voracek http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=775910&navid=DL|PHI|home Q: How is your summer going?“It’s been great. If I count the World Championships, I was home almost three months, so it was great to be home because I never spend that much time there. The World Championships was a great experience. It was awesome to play at home in front of the fans. I think that’s everybody’s dream to represent their country with a ‘C’ on their chest. After that, I went on vacation with my girlfriend, Nicole, to Seychelles. Q: How did you find out you were going to be captain of the Czech team?“We played our first game on Friday, May 1, and I found out on Monday, Apr. 27 at our practice. The coach skated up to me and told me I was going to be captain. It was unexpected. It was a very good feeling and it’s something I’m going to remember for the rest of my life.” Q: Describe the atmosphere of playing the World Championships in your home country?“I can’t even explain it. Those moments in hockey… They are something that you will never forget. When you think about the Olympics, the World Championships at home, even the playoff series with the Pittsburgh Penguins back in 2012 - those hockey moments stay in your memory forever. It’s been unreal and hopefully there will be more and more of those memories.” Q: Does the season you had last year, and all the honors that came with it, motivate you more?“I’m going to do exactly the same thing I did last year because I really worked hard and put everything together to have a successful year. The summers I spend in Montreal to train, it helps me every single year. When I was there for the lockout I had my best season, scoring 22 goals in 48 games - that’s something I would have never thought of. I had 62 points the next year and last season I had 81 points. So every year it keeps getting better and better. Also a big part of it is experience, maturing and I have great teammates to help me get there to that level.” Q: How did you find out about the NHL Postseason All-Star honor?“I was shocked because I had no clue. I woke up on Thursday morning and everyone told me to watch Jiri Hudler’s speech at the NHL Awards because we are best friends. As I was watching it I got a text from my sister congratulating me. It’s a great honor because it basically said you had the best season among all the right wings in the league. The players that are on that team with me, it’s unreal to be with them.” Q: A lot of the Flyers roster is in tact from last year, but can you talk about the additions of your countrymen Michal Neuvirth and Radko Gudas…“I know Michal very well. I played with him on the national teams growing up. He’s a great goalie and I think that was a great pick up by the organization. The last two years I’ve been the only Czech here by myself so it’s good to have two guys. I’m very excited to be able to talk every once in a while in Czech to someone. Sometimes it was hard when I called home and I tried to talk Czech with my mom. She would ask me if I was sleeping because I talked like I couldn’t speak Czech anymore.” Q: On Gudas…“I said this before… I think he’s going to be one of the favorite players on the team to the fans next year because he leaves everything on the ice and plays with a lot of grit. It’s very good to see that we have a player like him in our organization.” Q: Finally, your thoughts on your new head coach, Dave Hakstol. Is it true he flew to Czech Republic to meet with you in person?“Yes, it says a lot that he flew all the way to Czech Republic to meet with me, and he had some Czech food so that’s a good sign! I’m very excited for him coming in here and a new system. We spent a lot of time talking about everything from everyday life to what he’s expecting from us, as well as myself and I think it went very well.” A good read enjoy....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I know he is slight, but I think he only may need another year in Jr. He has to put on at least 15 lbs though Wait, so I got it right? Wow, when's the last time that happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Obviously this all just comes down to us disagreeing on what Jake appears to be worth. I think he's easily a top 5 RW in the league, arguably a top 5 winger period. I think he has to show more consistency before he's unarguably one of the top 5 wingers in the league. Also, it obviously depends on how one values that, but I could probably tick off five guys that should at least be in the conversation and have done it over a longer period without too much trouble. (Ovechkin, Kane, Benn, Sedin, Nash?, Pacioretty?) I like the guy a lot and, again, hope he is part of the long term here, but he's basically had one "big" year. We both agree "we'll see" how this next season pans out. Let's hope he makes the answer blindingly obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Q: Finally, your thoughts on your new head coach, Dave Hakstol. Is it true he flew to Czech Republic to meet with you in person?“Yes, it says a lot that he flew all the way to Czech Republic to meet with me, and he had some Czech food so that’s a good sign! I’m very excited for him coming in here and a new system. We spent a lot of time talking about everything from everyday life to what he’s expecting from us, as well as myself and I think it went very well.” A good read enjoy....... Wow, I like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I know he is slight, but I think he only may need another year in Jr. He has to put on at least 15 lbs though It's also about how Hextall has shown he wants to develop players. His Junior numbers are just a step or so ahead of Laughton, and Laughton has yet to really show he belongs in the league*. And Umburglar/Lecavalier are both signed for 2016-17... * I'm NOT saying "he doesn't" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 His Junior numbers are just a step or so ahead of Laughton I think TK is quite a bit further apart in terms of offensive skills. Comparing what they did as 16-17 year olds, Konecny scored 3 times the points as Scott. I don't know why TK didn't score 100 points this past season - part of that was injury, part of that was being Captain and doing other things besides scoring, part of it is getting extra attention from the other team's best players. But I don't think it's seen as a regression. He is enormously talented. His stickhandling and shot are elite level whereas Scott's is not yet I don't think. Having said that I think Scott is sneaky good offensively and could become a late bloomer scorer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 But I don't think it's seen as a regression. He is enormously talented. His stickhandling and shot are elite level whereas Scott's is not yet I don't think. Having said that I think Scott is sneaky good offensively and could become a late bloomer scorer. I like everything I've heard about Konecny and look forward to his Flyer career. The team needs players like this coming up the ranks. But we're still a ways away from naming him the starting first line left wing. Voracek, for example, was highly touted and is an extremely talented and he just "blossomed" last year, seven years into his career. The last thing I would want is to put Konecny into that position, have him not immediately light the world on fire, be labelled "disappointing," get traded and then turn into a 25-30 goal scorer elsewhere. Seen that too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 @radoran You're probably right. I just took a look at Logan Couture's path to the NHL: 9th overall, 2 more full years in Junior and then 2/3 of an AHL season before getting the call. 56 points the following year, 4 years after being drafted. Jeff Skinner is the opposite - straight to the NHL with a lousy team 63 points. Did it hurt his development? We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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