Wings have too many forwards- now what?

[yave1964]

Not bitching mind you.......

 

 Good to see the team go out and spend money today, I admit to groaning when I saw them sign Helm at 5 years 19 million, I thought, well typical Wings, take care of our own and we will not add anyone.

Wrong.

 First Frans Neilsen who I have been campaigning for. Yay!

 Second, we signed Vanek. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that a lot of his slippage is poor center play in Minny. I see 25 goals. Slow and plodding but he knows how to shoot.

 then Nasty bit of work Steve Ott wh brings grit and a nasty attitude. Not a huge fan of his type but he does fill a need.

And a few days before this we resigned Drew Miller.

That is 5 forwards added to:

Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Jurco, Glendening, Athanasiou, Pulkinnen, Mantha, and Sheahan.

 

16 forwards. A team carries 12 plus a 13th guy in the pressbox.

  It would be easy to say release Jurco, bury Pulkinnen in the AHL and run with 14 because of injuries and what not, it could work, but I dont know, I still think something else is coming.

 Anaheim is shopping Detroit boy Cam Fowler who grew up worshiping some guy named Lidstrom, Anaheim is bottom heavy, solid on defense but in need of a middle six winger. And they struck out on the free agent market today.

 

  Fowler and Mantha in a package is very doable, it would make perfect sense for both teams.Even if we do not do this, I am satisfied with the haul, but I would love to see us add a young top pair defender even at the cost of a future stud like Mantha. Hoping it happens.

[yave1964]

Oh and for @Old School Hockey the Ducks are in need of a good veteran backup goalie, and have money. Jimmy Howard?

[WingNut722]

@yave1964

 

Fowler for Mantha and Howard with some salary retention. Solves everything!

[Old School Hockey]

On July 1, 2016 at 7:00 PM, yave1964 said:

Oh and for @Old School Hockey the Ducks are in need of a good veteran backup goalie, and have money. Jimmy Howard?

Sure hope so!!!!!

[jammer2]

On 7/1/2016 at 6:57 PM, yave1964 said:

Not bitching mind you.......

 

 Good to see the team go out and spend money today, I admit to groaning when I saw them sign Helm at 5 years 19 million, I thought, well typical Wings, take care of our own and we will not add anyone.

Wrong.

 First Frans Neilsen who I have been campaigning for. Yay!

 Second, we signed Vanek. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that a lot of his slippage is poor center play in Minny. I see 25 goals. Slow and plodding but he knows how to shoot.

 then Nasty bit of work Steve Ott wh brings grit and a nasty attitude. Not a huge fan of his type but he does fill a need.

And a few days before this we resigned Drew Miller.

That is 5 forwards added to:

Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Jurco, Glendening, Athanasiou, Pulkinnen, Mantha, and Sheahan.

 

16 forwards. A team carries 12 plus a 13th guy in the pressbox.

  It would be easy to say release Jurco, bury Pulkinnen in the AHL and run with 14 because of injuries and what not, it could work, but I dont know, I still think something else is coming.

 Anaheim is shopping Detroit boy Cam Fowler who grew up worshiping some guy named Lidstrom, Anaheim is bottom heavy, solid on defense but in need of a middle six winger. And they struck out on the free agent market today.

 

  Fowler and Mantha in a package is very doable, it would make perfect sense for both teams.Even if we do not do this, I am satisfied with the haul, but I would love to see us add a young top pair defender even at the cost of a future stud like Mantha. Hoping it happens.

 

Helen St.James agrees with you. She is proposing either Tatar or Nyqvist and a high 2nd for Fowler. I think that would be a pretty even exchange. Both teams would meet some specific needs in this deal. I would say that Fowler skates better than all the Wings d-men not named Danny.....which is exactly what they need back there, a smart seasoned veteran who can skate and play either the top pp or the 2nd.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2016/07/02/detroit-red-wings-search-defenseman/86644936/

 

 I think Vanek really needed a change of scenery, it just never panned out in Minny. Kind of odd that he scored WAY more on a depleted Sabres squad, and to boot, faced way better checkers because of the Sabres lack of depth. If you want 25 goals out of him, which is not out of the question, he needs a smart elite center ...in other words, Zetts.

 

 Seems to me, the Wings trading a forward(s) is inevitable. As Helen points out, Tatar is most likely to go, seeing how he will command a big RFA raise next year. Some guys just have to go. I REALLY like the Frans Neilson signing, very smart crafty center who plays a very nice 2 way game. I think the Wings did need some grit, but Ott seems to be a waste of money IMHO. Maybe not a waste, but seems like they could have spent their money more wisely.

 

 Like the article says, Sproul, Jensen and Ouellette are out of options, so a package deal to a defensively depleted team makes sense. I think it's WAY to early to give up on Sproul, but if he does not crack the roster, no sense in losing him for nothing.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I would think, Mantha and Anthanasiou and maybe even Pulkinnen should all be untouchable (along with Larkin of course) until you find out what you have in them.

[yave1964]

@jammer2

 

I would love for the Wings to add a real top pair defender, we have the most boring bunch ever.

 

 Kronwall, an all time favorite of mine cant play at a high level anymore. Not close.

Green can still score and has speed, I think he was misused last year.

Dekeyser can play but is best suited for the second pair.

Ericsson struggled last season, mostly covering for Kronner.

Marchenko is a good little defender with a tad of offensive upside, but still a kid.

Brendan Smith had a solid year last year but still is not as good as I had hoped he would be. Loved him in college, he just has not developed.

 

I love Sproul, he has a nasty hard low shot and hope he gets a shot. Oullet, meh, just a guy. College free agent Robbie Russo led the AHL in plus/minus and can score, but all have holes in their game.

 

 So a vanilla bunch with vanilla coming up behind them. I desperately hoped for Yandle (until I saw the term/money, wow) We have frowards to burn, kid defenders to sweeten the deal, we need a solid 25 minute all situation guy right the hell now.

[WingNut722]

@jammer2

 

Pulkkinen can go; he's certainly not untouchable. He likes to shoot and has a rocket but it's not very accurate, and he has no defensive mind. If teams are looking for the bull in a china shop, they can have him.

 

in my opinion though, any quiet should be traded, not Tatar, but agreed that one of them has to go in order to attract Fowler, or someone comparable.

[yave1964]

45 minutes ago, WingNut722 said:

@jammer2

 

Pulkkinen can go; he's certainly not untouchable. He likes to shoot and has a rocket but it's not very accurate, and he has no defensive mind. If teams are looking for the bull in a china shop, they can have him.

 

in my opinion though, any quiet should be traded, not Tatar, but agreed that one of them has to go in order to attract Fowler, or someone comparable.

When Pulkinnen was killing it at GR I said then that while I loved his numbers his raising the stick so high for his slapper would not translate to the NHL with the defenseman he would see in the next level.

  He tried but shot after shot was blocked. Once he adjusted he lost his accuracy. I am not ready to give up on him, not by any stretch, some players take a bit longer but his lack of defensive prowess means he must score 30 to keep a top six role, and his lack of defense keeps him out of the bottom nine. So he needs to get the offense going to earn a job. Coming out of the AHL I gave him maybe a 70 percent chance of doing so, now I think it is down to even money.

  But man, what a slap shot. Unfortunately it is a dying art because of the tight checking and all of the equipment that defenders wear.

[OccamsRazor]

6 hours ago, yave1964 said:

When Pulkinnen was killing it at GR I said then that while I loved his numbers his raising the stick so high for his slapper would not translate to the NHL with the defenseman he would see in the next level.

  He tried but shot after shot was blocked. Once he adjusted he lost his accuracy. I am not ready to give up on him, not by any stretch, some players take a bit longer but his lack of defensive prowess means he must score 30 to keep a top six role, and his lack of defense keeps him out of the bottom nine. So he needs to get the offense going to earn a job. Coming out of the AHL I gave him maybe a 70 percent chance of doing so, now I think it is down to even money.

  But man, what a slap shot. Unfortunately it is a dying art because of the tight checking and all of the equipment that defenders wear.

 

 

My Flyer will take Teemu off your hands for a draft pick? What would your price be?

[OccamsRazor]

I'll give you a 4th round pick for Teemu.

[yave1964]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I'll give you a 4th round pick for Teemu.

Like I said, I still see it 50/50 he has a career, it sometimes just takes guys longer to adjust to the slightly bigger and faster NHL defenders.

 

I know a lot of people are under the impression that an NHL player is heads and shoulders above the AHL but the truth is, and this is the opinion of a guy who watches entirely too much AHL there is some serious talent buried there, most of them are missing one piece, fast enough but poor hockey IQ or a wild shot that goes 100 MPH and misses the net by the same five feet to the left time after time but checks and defends as well as anyone.

  When I tell anyone the difference between the AHL and the NHL I say it is about half a second. In the AHL Pulkinnen can lift his stick literally two feet above his head because he is the half second faster than the defense, but in the NHL the defender dives and gets a skate or a glove in the way, it is eyelash close. Some make the adjustments, some dont.

  Teemu has shortened his shot and has no earhtly idea where it is going. After a shooting pct. in the teens in the AHL with his big slapper now his shortened shot has taken him under ten percent.

  He does not play defense, he waits back trying to get the edge on the transition game which would be his bread and butter but the Wings defense is awful and has no idea how to play the transition style. So he does not help on defense, the defense does not play to his strengths and it sets up a cycle of frustration.

  I havent written him off yet, he was a monster with the Griffins and while I dont see 40 goals he may have a 30 goal a year future in him yet. Like @WingNut722 I would hold onto him unless we get a proper return of a usable defender.

[WingNut722]

@yave1964

 

you can't teach a defensive mind to a forward who doesn't have one to begin with. Youre right that he needs to score a lot to replace that lack of defense. Ovechkin seems to be doing okay with it.  But Pulkkinen is not that good, and their won't be too enough time to try and teach it by the time the organization has already invested significant time and resources into him. However, he has that 50/50 potential, so @OccamsRazor, I will decline your offer but would include Pulkkinen as some kind of throw-in the "sweeten" another deal. Perhaps my earlier suggestion for Cam Fowler..Pulkkinen and Howard with salary retention. Mantha could go too for a draft pick...third round

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, WingNut722 said:

@yave1964

 

you can't teach a defensive mind to a forward who doesn't have one to begin with. Youre right that he needs to score a lot to replace that lack of defense. Ovechkin seems to be doing okay with it.  But Pulkkinen is not that good, and their won't be too enough time to try and teach it by the time the organization has already invested significant time and resources into him. However, he has that 50/50 potential, so @OccamsRazor, I will decline your offer but would include Pulkkinen as some kind of throw-in the "sweeten" another deal. Perhaps my earlier suggestion for Cam Fowler..Pulkkinen and Howard with salary retention. Mantha could go too for a draft pick...third round

 

 

Well if it's Folwer you want i think it will be Mantha. And i wouldn't be interested in Howard so i can't see that working especially for 3 more years at 5.2...no way.

[yave1964]

27 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Well if it's Folwer you want i think it will be Mantha. And i wouldn't be interested in Howard so i can't see that working especially for 3 more years at 5.2...no way.

Wings would have to eat a lot of salary. I think they would be willing to.

[SpikeDDS]

13 hours ago, yave1964 said:

When I tell anyone the difference between the AHL and the NHL I say it is about half a second. In the AHL Pulkinnen can lift his stick literally two feet above his head because he is the half second faster than the defense, but in the NHL the defender dives and gets a skate or a glove in the way, it is eyelash close. Some make the adjustments, some dont.

  Teemu has shortened his shot and has no earhtly idea where it is going. After a shooting pct. in the teens in the AHL with his big slapper now his shortened shot has taken him under ten percent.

  He does not play defense, he waits back trying to get the edge on the transition game which would be his bread and butter but the Wings defense is awful and has no idea how to play the transition style. So he does not help on defense, the defense does not play to his strengths and it sets up a cycle of frustration.

  I havent written him off yet, he was a monster with the Griffins and while I dont see 40 goals he may have a 30 goal a year future in him yet. Like @WingNut722 I would hold onto him unless we get a proper return of a usable defender.

Brilliant analysis, @yave1964.

 

I tell people the difference between the AHL and the NHL is 18 inches: the 18 inches that makes the difference between a pass that allows a one-timer Vs. the pass that makes the receiving player having to handle the puck to set up their shot, allowing the defense to reposition themselves for the blocked shot. The 18 inches that allow you to avoid a check vs. Having your shot or pass disrupted or being plastered into the boards. The 18 inches which take a shot that would have hit the goalie hitting the net just inside of the bar instead.

 

When the Thrashers first came into the league, I went with a friend to a Wings game who was a new hockey fan. This was the year of the great 2002 team. And I told him to watch for that 18 inch difference. The difference was OBVIOUS Red Wings vs. Thrashers, a STARK contrast in the difference 18 inches makes in this game. And with defenses even better now than they were back then, the importance of those 18 inches is even more paramount to success.

 

Teemu is struggling with 18 inches. If he is setup for a nice one-timer he's fine, because he can already raise his stick where he likes it in anticipation of the shot. But if he has to create his own shot in any way, the windup takes juuuust long enough where his shot can now be blocked or else he is forced to miss the net by 18 inches or hits the goalie with it.