Flyers should extend Ghost right now....

[OccamsRazor]

28 minutes ago, no1sjsharksfan said:

 

Yeah, he's 24. But he has one year of NHL experience. Doesn't matter how old the kid is. He's not getting the money you originally said after one year. I will agree with you on the $5 mil for four years. Reasonable. You'd be underpaying him after year 1 of that deal. Still think he has a lot of room to grow (which is scary).

 

 

Doesn't matter you're right. It's the going rate which the GMs handing out these contracts set.

 

So 4.8-5.2 is what he will get.

[jammer2]

40 minutes ago, no1sjsharksfan said:

 

Yeah, he's 24. But he has one year of NHL experience. Doesn't matter how old the kid is. He's not getting the money you originally said after one year. I will agree with you on the $5 mil for four years. Reasonable. You'd be underpaying him after year 1 of that deal. Still think he has a lot of room to grow (which is scary).

l

 Well, I stated 5.5 to 6.5 for 5 or 6 years in the opening post of this thread. I explained in another post that adding 0.5 mill a year for each year past 4 years is also fair....so I never changed my line of thinking or numbers. The base was drawing off a guess of 4 years at 5 mill per. It really does matter how old he is. It changes a lot of things....when he enters his prime, when a potential 2nd contract would come into play age wise, the rate of growth expected from him in relation to other 1st and 2nd year players, more will be expected of him, so more pay should come his way also.

 

 BTW, welcome, great to have you here, you seem like a pretty knowledgeable guy, how long have you been a Sharks fan?

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

13 hours ago, jammer2 said:

l

 Well, I stated 5.5 to 6.5 for 5 or 6 years in the opening post of this thread. I explained in another post that adding 0.5 mill a year for each year past 4 years is also fair....so I never changed my line of thinking or numbers. The base was drawing off a guess of 4 years at 5 mill per. It really does matter how old he is. It changes a lot of things....when he enters his prime, when a potential 2nd contract would come into play age wise, the rate of growth expected from him in relation to other 1st and 2nd year players, more will be expected of him, so more pay should come his way also.

 

 BTW, welcome, great to have you here, you seem like a pretty knowledgeable guy, how long have you been a Sharks fan?

 

 

 

 

I think it has to be at least 4 years. It could average from 4.8-5.4 per year i think.

 

I have faith it will work out...no way Hexy doesn't get it done!!!!

 

[murraycraven]

I really don't get the need and urge to sign Ghost to an extension this year.   He is a RFA in 2017-18 so Hextall/Flyers can control the situation.   I love the kid and think he is going to be a really good player but why shoot yourself in the foot in terms of salary cap management when you don't have to?

 

This is the reason I hated when Hextall signed Jake - there was no reason to get the deal done at the time.   

 

What am I missing here?  

[King Knut]

On 10/1/2016 at 3:01 PM, jammer2 said:

Ghost is scheduled to be RFA for the 2017-18 season. What if he pulls a Johnny Hockey and refuses to sign a bridge deal?  What if he follows up last year with a 70-80 pts 2nd season...this scenario makes him prime offer sheet material. Sure the picks would be great, but you don't let a talent like this walk, even for numerous 1st rounders. The smart play is to extend him right now. Give him 5.5 to 6.5 mill a year for 5-6 years. Pay the kid, don't get into this long drawn out crap.....months of speculation. The thing is, the longer they wait, the more they will have to pay. If Ghost puts up 70-80 pts, he could say I'm not playing until you give me 8 mill a year. These kids have more leverage than they used to in RFA....and the bridge deal is looking like a thing of the past for the true young stars.

 

Let's see where things are in December.  Generally I tend to agree with you.  If he does sign an offer sheet, worst case scenario we have to match it and pay him what he wanted.  Big deal, we'd probably end up there anyway.  Ghost is at a point and age in his career where if you had to give him a deal longer than 5 years, it's still okay.   His long term durability is still a major question as he's never played a full season and isn't really a sizable player, but I don't think that's any reason to hesitate.  He's a game changer.  

 

Does anyone know what the draft pick compensation would be like for him if he does get signed away somehow?  

[King Knut]

On 10/1/2016 at 6:19 PM, canoli said:

I dunno Jammer it sounds crazy on the face of it but I see the sense of it. He's one of the cornerstones the Flyers absolutely must retain. The only thing that worries me (slightly) is how other teams adjusted to him just by backing off him a bit and it worked. It didn't shut him down completely of course - he's got too much hockey sense + speed for that. But if it were my money I'd wait till Christmas, see how the 1st half of the season goes for him. If he's on track for another good year that's when I call the Brinks trucks in...make him an offer he can't refuse.

 

Hopefully the thing about other teams adjusting for him is that it opens up the ice for the rest of the Flyers team and they can start to take advantage of that.  

 

Teams needed to see Ghost in order to adjust and double him, Flyers needed to see teams adjust and double Ghost in order to see how that opens things up.  Given time and if Hak's on top of things (plus the continued development of guys like Provo, Sanheim and Konex) and even if it doesn't mean 15 GWG for Ghost, it makes him invaluable.  

 

hopefully

[King Knut]

17 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Doesn't matter you're right. It's the going rate which the GMs handing out these contracts set.

 

So 4.8-5.2 is what he will get.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.  

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, murraycraven said:

I really don't get the need and urge to sign Ghost to an extension this year.   He is a RFA in 2017-18 so Hextall/Flyers can control the situation.   I love the kid and think he is going to be a really good player but why shoot yourself in the foot in terms of salary cap management when you don't have to?

 

This is the reason I hated when Hextall signed Jake - there was no reason to get the deal done at the time.   

 

What am I missing here?  

 

MDZ and the Offer Sheet Rules are my major questions.  

 

Hexy won't want to give Ghost  a big contract like that at the end of this year, but he may be forced to give Del Zotto one if he wants to keep him as MDZ is UFA.  In losing Schultz and Streit's contracts, he can almost afford to give them both deals close to the 5 million range, but then he's still right up against the cap and can't upgrade the top 6... and quite possibly he'll be back in the same boat with Provo in another couple of years.  

 

What's an offer sheet the Flyers aren't likely to match?  $5.6 mill+?  Is another team going to give up a 1st, 2nd and 3rd plus 5.6million a year for Ghost?  Any less than that and it's probably worth it to a team to make the offer sheet.  A first and a third isn't a ton to give up for Ghost.  So by my guess, the real question is if the Flyers risk Ghost getting an offer sheet in the 4.5-5.5 million range that they won't want to match and only getting a first and a third in return for losing him.  I don't think another team would want to risk paying and losing more than that but I could be wrong.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

This is the reason I hated when Hextall signed Jake - there was no reason to get the deal done at the time.   

 

 

 

Also, I totally agree.  I tried to defend that deal at the time, and frankly, if Jake had been given the deal he got on the open market, we probably would have been better off letting him go.  Think of the Free Agents we could have signed with that 8 million?  

 

Jake comes back and has another 90 pt year, we'll be happy... but in 4 years?  It'll be a killer and frankly I think if Jake has another good year soon, Hexy will have to trade him while the iron is hot.

[murraycraven]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Also, I totally agree.  I tried to defend that deal at the time, and frankly, if Jake had been given the deal he got on the open market, we probably would have been better off letting him go.  Think of the Free Agents we could have signed with that 8 million?  

 

Jake comes back and has another 90 pt year, we'll be happy... but in 4 years?  It'll be a killer and frankly I think if Jake has another good year soon, Hexy will have to trade him while the iron is hot.

 

completely agree KK...  I just don't see the rush to sign someone that is still controlled. To me I give him this year to see and then start discussing an extension.   I just dont see the logic in spending that much when there is no reason to do so...

[King Knut]

28 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

completely agree KK...  I just don't see the rush to sign someone that is still controlled. To me I give him this year to see and then start discussing an extension.   I just dont see the logic in spending that much when there is no reason to do so...

 

all of which isn't to say I don't like the player.  

I think around 6 million for 6 years should have been a good enough deal for both sides.

[murraycraven]

9 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

all of which isn't to say I don't like the player.  

I think around 6 million for 6 years should have been a good enough deal for both sides.

 

absolutely.... I think the kid is only going to get better honestly.   I rather just wait one year before signing him long term.

[jammer2]

15 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

absolutely.... I think the kid is only going to get better honestly.   I rather just wait one year before signing him long term.

 

 There is some wisdom in that line of thinking, no doubt. The big thing for me is the injury he suffered last year, can he stay healthy for a full year? I'd like to know who his agent is, and how he goes about doing things etc. Just a little stat, Burns, a constant all star has only passed Ghost's goal total twice in his career, and he is 31. That is with Ghost missing 18 games last year. My Fantrax fantasy league has him slotted for 18 goals this coming year....that seems odd. How can he not improve on last year, when he should be making up 18 games?  The real danger is, he scores 30 and drives his price up by millions. This is not a 20 year old kid here, he should not suffer a bad 2nd year like most kids. He will turn 24 this April...it's a different beast.

[radoran]

29 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

all of which isn't to say I don't like the player.  

I think around 6 million for 6 years should have been a good enough deal for both sides.

 

What worried me about Homer was his (apparent) proclivity to start the bidding at his best possible offer. Even when bidding essentially against himself.

 

I have an unfortunate feeling that Hextall "wanted to get Jake locked up" and started off with a top level, max length offer. Again, essentially bidding against himself.

 

Do you see Jake turning that down? Of course not.

 

BUT, if presented with a $36M/6Y deal, do you see Jake - after a potential career year - saying "Oh, NONONONONO, I need $48M/8Y or I'm walking"? 'cause I don't. YMMV

 

Now (as I have continually harped) the Flyers have committed their top level salaries to two guys who have scored more than 25 goals twice in 14 years - between them. It was startling how many times Ed Snider over the past few years was publicly pondering if they had overvalued their players? He always followed that up with "we don't think so" but the question was still being begged...

 

Especially after the Richards/Crater trades blew up the last big pair they committed the franchise to.

 

I like Claude Giroux fine - but the "player with the most points in the past five years" (all of one more point than Crosby in 71 more games) was 6th in the past four, 8th in the past three, 13th in the past two and 20th last season. Not the trend line you want from your $8M centerpiece.

 

I like Jake Voracek a lot, actually, but his point totals of 46-62-81-55 points to a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point player and they simply do not make $8M in this league. Nine players had a $8M+ cap hit last season (I realize Jake did not) but would you put Voracek on the same level as Kane, Toews, Ovechkin, Malkin, Subban, Crosby, Perry, Lundqvist, Giroux and Getzlaf? Even go to $7.5M cap hits. Is Voracek a Getzlaf, Kessel, Weber, Nash, Parise, Suter? (I have omitted EStaal who is a $3.5M cap hit for three more seasons).

 

This season you can add Kopitar and Stamkos to the $8M plus players. How's Jake in that company? Well, obviously, I hope he lives up to it. But, still...

 

How this applies to Ghost: is Ghost an OEL, Keith, Seabrook, Hamilton, Burns? Honestly, I have to say that he certainly appears that way - and they're in the $5-6M range. I don't think it is essential to luck him up rightnow, but if he would take a $36M/6Y deal, I would certainly seriously look at signing it.

[murraycraven]

1 minute ago, jammer2 said:

 

 There is some wisdom in that line of thinking, no doubt. The big thing for me is the injury he suffered last year, can he stay healthy for a full year? I'd like to know who his agent is, and how he goes about doing things etc. Just a little stat, Burns, a constant all star has only passed Ghost's goal total twice in his career, and he is 31. That is with Ghost missing 18 games last year. My Fantrax fantasy league has him slotted for 18 goals this coming year....that seems odd. How can he not improve on last year, when he should be making up 18 games?  The real danger is, he scores 30 and drives his price up by millions. This is not a 20 year old kid here, he should not suffer a bad 2nd year like most kids. He will turn 24 this April...it's a different beast.

 

oh, I get that jammer....   I think he is a mature kid that should get better.  And as KK mentioned - this is no about not liking the player but more of being patient and letting this season play out.   I am not a fan of signing long-term deals in a year that is controlled by the organization.   If I am projecting he will get a big deal when his contract is up but I rather be fiscally sound and let it play out.

 

I can see both sides here honestly... I would prefer to wait until after this season for a deal.

[murraycraven]

2 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

What worried me about Homer was his (apparent) proclivity to start the bidding at his best possible offer. Even when bidding essentially against himself.

 

I have an unfortunate feeling that Hextall "wanted to get Jake locked up" and started off with a top level, max length offer. Again, essentially bidding against himself.

 

 

Do you see Jake turning that down? If presented with a $36M/6Y deal, do you see Jake - after a potential career year - saying "Oh, NONONONONO, I need $48M/8Y or I'm walking"? 'cause I don't. YMMV

 

Now (as I have continually harped) the Flyers have committed their top level salaries to two guys who have scored more than 25 goals twice in 14 years - between them. It was startling how many times Ed Snider over the past few years was publicly pondering if they had overvalued their players? He always followed that up with "we don't think so" but the question was still being begged...

 

Especially after the Richards/Crater trades blew up the last big pair they committed the franchise to.

 

I like Claude Giroux fine - but the "player with the most points in the past five years" (all of one more point than Crosby in 71 more games) was 6th in the past four, 8th in the past three, 13th in the past two and 20th last season. Not the trend line you want from your $8M centerpiece.

 

I like Jake Voracek a lot, actually, but his point totals of 46-62-81-55 points to a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point player and they simply do not make $8M in this league. Nine players had a $8M+ cap hit last season (I realize Jake did not) but would you put Voracek on the same level as Kane, Toews, Ovechkin, Malkin, Subban, Crosby, Perry, Lundqvist, Giroux and Getzlaf? Even go to $7.5M cap hits. Is Voracek a Getzlaf, Kessel, Weber, Nash, Parise, Suter? (I have omitted EStaal who is a $3.5M cap hit for three more seasons).

 

This season you can add Kopitar and Stamkos to the $8M plus players. How's Jake in that company? Well, obviously, I hope he lives up to it. But, still...

 

How this applies to Ghost: is Ghost an OEL, Keith, Seabrook, Hamilton, Burns? Honestly, I have to say that he certainly appears that way - and they're in the $5-6M range. I don't think it is essential to luck him up rightnow, but if he would take a $36M/6Y deal, I would certainly seriously look at signing it.

 

 

great post...

 

pretty much my line of thinking about this entire topic.   As for Jake - he needs to play at a superstar level this year and nothing less.   I am sorry but 8+M per year deserves the pressure and the player needs to perform at a very high level.   AS you mentioned, if you look around the league at the players being paid at this level Jake is not even close...

[jammer2]

2 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

oh, I get that jammer....   I think he is a mature kid that should get better.  And as KK mentioned - this is no about not liking the player but more of being patient and letting this season play out.   I am not a fan of signing long-term deals in a year that is controlled by the organization.   If I am projecting he will get a big deal when his contract is up but I rather be fiscally sound and let it play out.

 

I can see both sides here honestly... I would prefer to wait until after this season for a deal.

 

 I'm thinking, if he starts out on a torrid pace, which adds up to crazy totals for 82 games, caution should be thrown to the wind. We should have a real good idea where his season is heading by the end of Nov...that is a good enough sample size to get a good feel for the situation. I'm guessing 23 goals and 41 assists on the season.

[King Knut]

16 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

 

 There is some wisdom in that line of thinking, no doubt. The big thing for me is the injury he suffered last year, can he stay healthy for a full year? I'd like to know who his agent is, and how he goes about doing things etc. Just a little stat, Burns, a constant all star has only passed Ghost's goal total twice in his career, and he is 31. That is with Ghost missing 18 games last year. My Fantrax fantasy league has him slotted for 18 goals this coming year....that seems odd. How can he not improve on last year, when he should be making up 18 games?  The real danger is, he scores 30 and drives his price up by millions. This is not a 20 year old kid here, he should not suffer a bad 2nd year like most kids. He will turn 24 this April...it's a different beast.

 

I'm all for paying Ghost what he earns, but I think the days of 8 year 8 million dollar contracts have to be a thing of the past.  Deals in general are coming down.  Even the Marchand deal which is too big IMHO is still better than the Voracek deal.  

 

I think there could be wisdom in signing Ghost early and signing him long term, but I don't think it needs to be before Christmas or even the trade deadline and I definitely don't think it should be above that 5 million mark unless he's on pace for a Paul Coffey 150 pt. season.   If that happens... god help us all, it'll probably be worth it.  

[jammer2]

 Really, I can see both sides here. I do think it's something that should be talked about though, it's why I started this thread.

 

 I really liked rads point, Homer, and to some degree Hexy have continually started out to high in these negotiations. Of course, the unbelievable part is yes, they were indeed competing against themselves. I know it's the GM's call, but is there not a voice of reason in this org, one that has some weight?  Does Hexy have competent ears he can discuss things with? The real example of competing against yourself was the McDonald deal. How did he show he deserved that kind of security before his recent deal was signed?

[King Knut]

17 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

What worried me about Homer was his (apparent) proclivity to start the bidding at his best possible offer. Even when bidding essentially against himself.

 

I have an unfortunate feeling that Hextall "wanted to get Jake locked up" and started off with a top level, max length offer. Again, essentially bidding against himself.

 

Do you see Jake turning that down? Of course not.

 

BUT, if presented with a $36M/6Y deal, do you see Jake - after a potential career year - saying "Oh, NONONONONO, I need $48M/8Y or I'm walking"? 'cause I don't. YMMV

 

Now (as I have continually harped) the Flyers have committed their top level salaries to two guys who have scored more than 25 goals twice in 14 years - between them. It was startling how many times Ed Snider over the past few years was publicly pondering if they had overvalued their players? He always followed that up with "we don't think so" but the question was still being begged...

 

Especially after the Richards/Crater trades blew up the last big pair they committed the franchise to.

 

I like Claude Giroux fine - but the "player with the most points in the past five years" (all of one more point than Crosby in 71 more games) was 6th in the past four, 8th in the past three, 13th in the past two and 20th last season. Not the trend line you want from your $8M centerpiece.

 

I like Jake Voracek a lot, actually, but his point totals of 46-62-81-55 points to a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point player and they simply do not make $8M in this league. Nine players had a $8M+ cap hit last season (I realize Jake did not) but would you put Voracek on the same level as Kane, Toews, Ovechkin, Malkin, Subban, Crosby, Perry, Lundqvist, Giroux and Getzlaf? Even go to $7.5M cap hits. Is Voracek a Getzlaf, Kessel, Weber, Nash, Parise, Suter? (I have omitted EStaal who is a $3.5M cap hit for three more seasons).

 

This season you can add Kopitar and Stamkos to the $8M plus players. How's Jake in that company? Well, obviously, I hope he lives up to it. But, still...

 

How this applies to Ghost: is Ghost an OEL, Keith, Seabrook, Hamilton, Burns? Honestly, I have to say that he certainly appears that way - and they're in the $5-6M range. I don't think it is essential to luck him up rightnow, but if he would take a $36M/6Y deal, I would certainly seriously look at signing it.

 

I don't blame G's drop off on anything other than Homer being a moron.  

G hit his top stride and then Homer (followed by Hextall) changed virtually everything around him including replacing a "freewheeling offensive" coach with a "defense first" hockey wunder-dolt who couldn't convey his "system" in two years (because it didn't exist).  

 

Giroux hit his stride for real with Jagr and Hartnell and Lavvy.  Is it any wonder that there's been a precipitous downslide in his scoring since those three things left?

 

Not that I'm saying we should have kept any one of them (except Jagr... we definitely should have kept Jagr, but I've gone on about that enough elsewhere) I'm just saying that the decline should have been expected.  

 

Giroux also plays a lot more of a game than just scoring.  He's key all over the ice up and down on specials teams and everywhere in ways that few players can match in this league.    Other than shoot out scoring, there's nothing you can't ask the guy to do for your team that he won't excel at given the right tools around him.

 

Jake is less complete a player.  Though very valuable he doesn't do "EVERYTHING"

 

The Stamkos Kopitar comparisons are apt, though doesn't Kopitar make quite a bit more (probably deservedly so?).

 

 

 

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm all for paying Ghost what he earns, but I think the days of 8 year 8 million dollar contracts have to be a thing of the past.  Deals in general are coming down.  Even the Marchand deal which is too big IMHO is still better than the Voracek deal.  

 

I think there could be wisdom in signing Ghost early and signing him long term, but I don't think it needs to be before Christmas or even the trade deadline and I definitely don't think it should be above that 5 million mark unless he's on pace for a Paul Coffey 150 pt. season.   If that happens... god help us all, it'll probably be worth it.  

 

And that is why I am on both sides of the fence here...   I do think he is going to be a force this year.   And again, I think he is only get better...   Maybe is the accountant in me but I really feel that a player should be paid when they are up for a contract and not before.   With that said I would not be upset if they did extend him that year....

 

I am happily wishy washy when it comes to Ghost.   I think he really is a special player and maybe you are right.   You have a very valid point.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I don't blame G's drop off on anything other than Homer being a moron.  

G hit his top stride and then Homer (followed by Hextall) changed virtually everything around him including replacing a "freewheeling offensive" coach with a "defense first" hockey wunder-dolt who couldn't convey his "system" in two years (because it didn't exist).  

 

Giroux hit his stride for real with Jagr and Hartnell and Lavvy.  Is it any wonder that there's been a precipitous downslide in his scoring since those three things left?

 

Not that I'm saying we should have kept any one of them (except Jagr... we definitely should have kept Jagr, but I've gone on about that enough elsewhere) I'm just saying that the decline should have been expected.  

 

Giroux also plays a lot more of a game than just scoring.  He's key all over the ice up and down on specials teams and everywhere in ways that few players can match in this league.    Other than shoot out scoring, there's nothing you can't ask the guy to do for your team that he won't excel at given the right tools around him.

 

Jake is less complete a player.  Though very valuable he doesn't do "EVERYTHING"

 

The Stamkos Kopitar comparisons are apt, though doesn't Kopitar make quite a bit more (probably deservedly so?).

 

Kopitar makes $10M which I, as a person who likes Kopitar, don't really think he is worth. Stamkos will be making $250K more than Voracek for the duration of their deals.

 

And I should go amend my post in the "Legacy" thread to add keeping Lavvy for seven games rather than making a rational coaching change over the summer and hiring the best hockey mind Homer knew as coach to run the team further into the ground.

 

And, again, I do hope Giroux/Voracek works out and do believe that it can. 

 

I think that line misses Hartnell something fierce and they would be much better off had they kept Hartnell and bred Schenn and Couturier onto the second line. Yes. He takes bad penalties and yes he's in decline but he still put up 23/49 "in the doghouse" in Columbus.

 

Don't make that deal and you've got 25 goals a season. Make that deal and you get to buy out RJ Umburglar. 

 

And maybe you don'toverpay Jake...

[OccamsRazor]

22 minutes ago, radoran said:

And I should go amend my post in the "Legacy" thread to add keeping Lavvy for seven games rather than making a rational coaching change over the summer and hiring the best hockey mind Homer knew as coach to run the team further into the ground.

 

 

See....rusty.....a video just for you.....

 

 

[no1sjsharksfan]

23 hours ago, jammer2 said:

l

 Well, I stated 5.5 to 6.5 for 5 or 6 years in the opening post of this thread. I explained in another post that adding 0.5 mill a year for each year past 4 years is also fair....so I never changed my line of thinking or numbers. The base was drawing off a guess of 4 years at 5 mill per. It really does matter how old he is. It changes a lot of things....when he enters his prime, when a potential 2nd contract would come into play age wise, the rate of growth expected from him in relation to other 1st and 2nd year players, more will be expected of him, so more pay should come his way also.

 

 BTW, welcome, great to have you here, you seem like a pretty knowledgeable guy, how long have you been a Sharks fan?

 

 

 

I have been a Sharks fan my whole 21-year-old life!

[King Knut]

47 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Kopitar makes $10M which I, as a person who likes Kopitar, don't really think he is worth. Stamkos will be making $250K more than Voracek for the duration of their deals.

 

And I should go amend my post in the "Legacy" thread to add keeping Lavvy for seven games rather than making a rational coaching change over the summer and hiring the best hockey mind Homer knew as coach to run the team further into the ground.

 

And, again, I do hope Giroux/Voracek works out and do believe that it can. 

 

I think that line misses Hartnell something fierce and they would be much better off had they kept Hartnell and bred Schenn and Couturier onto the second line. Yes. He takes bad penalties and yes he's in decline but he still put up 23/49 "in the doghouse" in Columbus.

 

Don't make that deal and you've got 25 goals a season. Make that deal and you get to buy out RJ Umburglar. 

 

And maybe you don'toverpay Jake...

 

Thats what hat I thought on Kopy, but I didn't have time to look it up.  That's too much for anyone IMHO and he's a great great complete player.  

 

Jake has some living up to do in light of the Stamkos deal.  

 

And the other way of looking at the Hartnell deal is that they weren't winning anything for two years anyway and this way we get to resign MDZ and Ghost if we want to and if we're lucky maybe just maybe improve the top 6 in free agency this July. 

 

All three Ain't happening with Hartsy on the books for two more years.  

 

On on the other hand we could have had two productive years out of G that still ended in first round losses or missed playoffs. 

 

I dont mind trading Hartsy.  It's just hard not to imagine there were better deals to be had though.  I still feel like there's more to that story that we'll never hear.