Sean Couturier Overdue for Breakout Season

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well Filpula finished 44th in 5 on 5 points with 35.

 

And Coots finished 57th with 31. So they are pretty close to the same i say.

 

And i would think Filppula would win in a race...

 

 

 

We were talking specifically about replacing Coots on the 2nd PP unit.  

That doesn't work with Val.  Fillpula isn't good on the PP.  

 

As far as Even Strength goes, he had 12 goals to Couturier's 14 and 23 Assists to Couturier's 17 and did that in 13 more games than Couturier and most of it on a different team.  

 

I'm not sure that gives him the edge in any races.  

 

They are pretty similar players in a lot of ways offensively speaking.  Filppula gets more D zone starts and Ozone starts no matter whether it's Tampa or Philly, but he's still nowhere near the 58% rate that Couturier gets. 

 

When he starts drawing D assignments against the top lines of the other team every night and still puts up numbers similar to Couturier, then we can talk. 

 

The good news is both players are on our team and that makes them better.

The additional good news is that Filppula can play on Patrick's wing.  That's fantastic news.  He might even be more comfortable there. 

 

 

 

[B21]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

What kind of player exactly do you think he should be playing like?

 

The problem with this "Coots is what he is" line of thinking is that it seems to suggest that what he is has been a disappointment.

 

If you wanted Coots to be an 80 point NHL player, then yes.  You would be disappointed.

 

But back in the real world where Hockey is a game played and not just the numbers on the back of a hockey card, Hockey games are Won by scoring more goals than you let in.  

 

Now the argument is that PP goals count just as much as regular goals, but the goals scored AGAINST YOU count just as much whether you're a PP specialist or not. 

 

Voracek, Giroux, Schenn and even the blessed Simmonds (who also played the PK) were all TERRIBLE at even strength.  They were all minus players and they were all SO bad that even the excessive power play goals they scored don't make up for the goals they gave up at even strength.

 

I've love to have another Superstar and I loved when Jake and G were near the top of the scoring leaders and I loved when Recchi broke 100points for the Flyers and I loved when LeClair was putting in 40 goals all those years in row.

But I like winning Hockey games more than all of that combined and if every player on this team was as BAD on the PP as Coots is, but as Good at everything else as Coots is, the Flyers would beat almost any team in the NHL any night of the weak.

 

So he can't score on the PP?  Turns out he's just damn good at being a hockey player.  

 

 

My English might not be so good but isn't saying "he is what he is" kinda the same as saying "he is a solid 3C who can score even strength, play good if not great D but for whatever reason struggles on the PP"?  Makes sense considering the arguments for/against him always centered around the expectation of more offense based on his draft position and his Junior stats.

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

We were talking specifically about replacing Coots on the 2nd PP unit.  

That doesn't work with Val.  Fillpula isn't good on the PP.  

 

I wouldn't put him on the PP over a lot of guys but between him and Coots i'd take him because he is more mobile.

 

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I'm not sure that gives him the edge in any races

 

 

I never said an edge. I said more of the same. Fil is very serviceable.

 

Coots is more of a defensive specialist. Both play good roles.

[King Knut]

17 minutes ago, B21 said:

 

My English might not be so good but isn't saying "he is what he is" kinda the same as saying "he is a solid 3C who can score even strength, play good if not great D but for whatever reason struggles on the PP"?  Makes sense considering the arguments for/against him always centered around the expectation of more offense based on his draft position and his Junior stats.

 

The problem with "he is what is is" is that for most Flyers fans that's a criticism.  He isn't what we wish he was.  

My point is that he's a lot better for the team than most Flyers fans think he is.  

 

There are plenty of players who were drafted where he was and below who put in more goals and assists, but very few who can do quite as much to help his team win.  Give me a choice between a guy who scores 30 goals but is on the ice for 50 against or a guy who scores 14 goals and is on the ice for 12 more than are scored against him, and I'm going with the second guy.  Especially when the better players on other teams have a harder time playing against him.

But then again, I like actually watching games, not just highlight reels and reading box scores.

 

Your english seems fine to me, but judging by the Penguins logo, I'll just convey that when it comes to Flyers fans, we can be really frustrating when it comes to expectations.  We're never satisfied no matter what and we often can't see a good thing for what it is.  

 

For instance, if Phil Kessel was on the Flyers everyone would be complaining that he is too fat, doesn't skate well and doesn't kill penalties and has a terrible contract.

 

It's just the way of things here.  We had a perennial plus player who scored 30-35 goals every year in Jeff Carter and everyone hated him because they perceived him as getting more girls than they did in college.  It's stupid.  We can be a really dumb breed sometimes.  

[King Knut]

26 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I wouldn't put him on the PP over a lot of guys but between him and Coots i'd take him because he is more mobile.

 

 

 

I never said an edge. I said more of the same. Fil is very serviceable.

 

Coots is more of a defensive specialist. Both play good roles.

 

Sorry I misinterpreted your "win in a race" line.  I thought it was an allegory, but clearly (and it's obvious now) you literally meant a skating race.  Which is probably legit.  

 

He may seem more mobile, and mobility is definitely a problem on the Flyers Power play, though I'm not sure I'll put that on the players just yet --Joey Mullen is out of a job afterall.

 

I'm much more interested in seeing if Patrick and the kids can make some noise on that 2nd unit.  I think they've got a better chance.  

 

My only question is do you break up the first unit and give the 2nd Unit Simmonds or Voracek so it's not all unproven Rookies and kids?

 

Long story short, the 2nd unit is a bit of a problem this year.  Even if they wanted to stick Coots back on it, he'll be playing more PK minutes with PEB and VDV gone (which can't hurt the PK and it probably can't hurt the PP either).  

 

But if they extend ALL of Coots' special units minutes, then he's playing Even Strength less and as I've iterated, I think he needs to be playing MORE even strength minutes to help this team.  

 

All in all, I'd risk a crappy 2nd unit of kids playing together.  Worst case, they don't score.  The unit with Read, Filppula and Coots isn't scoring already so there's no loss.  In the mean time you get a Fresher Coots and Filppula for the parts of the game they do far better than the rest of the team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

No what?  You wont' read my response?

 

Well that makes visiting a message board a bit pointless doesn't it?  

 

 

 

No, I won't entertain this conversation.

 

I can't believe that there's actually anyone left still trying to defend his offense of game. I mean... It's been five years and he still hasn't eclipsed 40 points even once. End of story.

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

No, I won't entertain this conversation.

 

I can't believe that there's actually anyone left still trying to defend his offense of game. I mean... It's been five years and he still hasn't eclipsed 40 points even once. End of story.

 

I've been told to ignore you... and clearly you're not reading any of what I'm saying, so I guess I'd better return the favor and do as has been suggested to me.  

 

No, I can't help it.  You're ignoring the fact that for 66%-75% of every game, he's the best player on the ice... BY THE NUMBERS.  BY REAL NUMBERS.    

 

If you don't care about the game and only care about box scores and highlight reels on CSN, then you're right.  He's lame.  

 

But if you like watching or playing hockey, he's incredibly integral to the team.  

[fanaticV3.0]

20 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I've been told to ignore you... and clearly you're not reading any of what I'm saying, so I guess I'd better return the favor and do as has been suggested to me.  

 

No, I can't help it.  You're ignoring the fact that for 66%-75% of every game, he's the best player on the ice... BY THE NUMBERS.  BY REAL NUMBERS.    

 

If you don't care about the game and only care about box scores and highlight reels on CSN, then you're right.  He's lame.  

 

But if you like watching or playing hockey, he's incredibly integral to the team.  

 

LOL, by who @OccamsRazor? Yeah, he's a pillar of objectivity and rational thinking.

 

You are fighting too hard to defend the guy who's best year points wise is 39.

[B21]

35 minutes ago, King Knut said:

He isn't what we wish he was.

 

That sums up the Couturier debate in seven words. Well said.

 

36 minutes ago, King Knut said:

It's just the way of things here.  We had a perennial plus player who scored 30-35 goals every year in Jeff Carter and everyone hated him because they perceived him as getting more girls than they did in college.  It's stupid.

 

Another good example.  In fairness, I could have said "he is what he is which is not necessarily a bad thing". 

 

38 minutes ago, King Knut said:

We can be a really dumb breed sometimes.

 

On this point I will never disagree. 

[King Knut]

54 minutes ago, B21 said:

 

Another good example.  In fairness, I could have said "he is what he is which is not necessarily a bad thing". 

 

 

This is my point of view to a T.   He ain't a 100pt player.  But he's actually a really important piece to this team.  

[vis]

Filppula actually has some history, albeit older, of scoring some points, mainly assists, on the PP.  he didn't get much opportunity the last couple of years because there were others ahead of him in TB.  

 

If the choice is Couturier vs Filppula as PP 2C, I'd much rather see the latter in that role.  

 

Bit of a mootpoint because I think Patrick lands there.  

[icehole]

I'm probably the biggest couturier pessimist on here.  New season though, and I've given up all expectations of him contributing much offense.  I'm fine with him on the third line in a defensive role.  They have other players that should contribute some more offense this season and beyond.

 

What sort of defensive level should we hold him to though?  That's always the argument for his importance, but how should we gauge that?  Is it plus minus, defensive zone starts, or something else that tells you how good a forward is in a defensive role?

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

LOL, by who @OccamsRazor? Yeah, he's a pillar of objectivity and rational thinking.

 

You are fighting too hard to defend the guy who's best year points wise is 39.

 

I honestly don't need to defend him.  I'm just trying to save some of y'all who don't see it a lot of aggravation as he continues to log more minutes than most forwards and continues to show up in key situations.  

 

Let me put it to you this way.

 

If you had an entire team team full of 30 goal scorers who all end at minus 35, and I had a team of 14 goal scorers who all end up +12... I can almost guarantee you that My team will win and your team will lose.

 

It's as simple as that.  

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

I've been told to ignore you

 

I told you. You continue to feed the troll.

 

@fanaticV3.0

 

The sun must be on the other side of the bridge now so he can see to respond how lucky you are...

 

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, icehole said:

I'm probably the biggest couturier pessimist on here.  New season though, and I've given up all expectations of him contributing much offense.  I'm fine with him on the third line in a defensive role.  They have other players that should contribute some more offense this season and beyond.

 

What sort of defensive level should we hold him to though?  That's always the argument for his importance, but how should we gauge that?  Is it plus minus, defensive zone starts, or something else that tells you how good a forward is in a defensive role?

 

It's everything and it's everything in comparison.  

 

Look at his numbers in comparison to the other "elite" defensive forwards.

He scores as much or more at even strength, he has significantly more defensive zone starts and he is constantly put on the ice in the most dangerous circumstances against the opposition's best lines.  

 

Selke Winner Patrice Bergeron had 1 more Even strength point (& fewer goals) than Couturier and was dead even with him at +12.

Toews was a +7 compared to Coot's +12 despite putting up a lot more points at even Strength.  

Kesler had 7 more assists, but ended up at only +8.

Couturier blew Kopitar out of the water on all of the above.

 

Of the above, only Kesler had more D zone starts (the others didn't even crest 50%).

 

As a defensive forward, Couturier is already elite.  

For my money, based on numbers Koivu is still probably the best in the game at that role overall... but Bergeron tends to get the press and the awards.

 

But when you compare what Couturier is doing to the rest of the Flyers team, there's really no argument.  He's terrible on the PP (the entire 2nd unit was) but he's pretty much the best player out there otherwise... at least as far as playing hockey.  

 

Until the game is reduced entirely to all star weekend skills competitions and they still make them actually play hockey, everyone has to chill about Couturier.

 

Frankly I don't care if anyone gets it or not.  If you get it, it'll just save you the aggravation of getting ticked off at him and complaining about him all the time.  

 

And as far as the PP goes, let's keep things in perspective.

A grand total of 9 PP goals were scored by guys not on the top unit.

Of those TK has the most with 3.  

 

A grand total of 21 goals were scored on the PP by guys NOT named Schenn and Simmonds.  

Schenn and Simmonds Scored 61% of the team's PP goals last year. 

 

The Top PP scorer on the 2nd unit was TK with 3 total goals.

The top ASsist getter on the 2nd Unit was Streit with 7.  7 PP assists.  

 

The 2nd Unit was an amalgam of Streit, Provo, Read, Konecny, Cousins and Weise.  

We all love Provo, but anyone could tell you going into the season that Unit isn't going to do squat.  

 

Maybe ONE of those guys on a unit with better players could put up better numbers, but all of them together?  Or maybe if Streit was younger and Provo and Konecny were older, that would have helped Couturier put more pucks on the lighting quick and accurate sticks of Weise, Read and Cousins.  

 

Again, I really don't care who accepts this stuff for what it is, I'm literally just trying to save some of you the headache of worrying about it.  

 

They can certainly find better forwards to play the PP and hopefully they have, but until someone on this team starts playing better at even strength than Coots (and no one is) then the whiners and complainers just need to chill.

 

 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I told you. You continue to feed the troll.

 

@fanaticV3.0

 

The sun must be on the other side of the bridge now so he can see to respond how lucky you are...

 

 

Afterall it's not easy, banging your head against some mad bugger's wall...

[fanaticV3.0]

16 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

I honestly don't need to defend him.  I'm just trying to save some of y'all who don't see it a lot of aggravation as he continues to log more minutes than most forwards and continues to show up in key situations.  

 

Let me put it to you this way.

 

If you had an entire team team full of 30 goal scorers who all end at minus 35, and I had a team of 14 goal scorers who all end up +12... I can almost guarantee you that My team will win and your team will lose.

 

It's as simple as that.  

 

 

 

 

Let me put it to you this way: 27, 15, 39, 37, 39, and 34 points. It's as simple as that. And I say this as someone who has been one of his bigger defenders on this site.

[vis]

16 hours ago, King Knut said:

Until the game is reduced entirely to all star weekend skills competitions and they still make them actually play hockey, everyone has to chill about Couturier.

No, everyone does not have to chill about Couturier.  

 

Really cannot believe that some folks seem to be advocating that Couturier be given an expanded offensive role.

[icehole]

50 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Let me put it to you this way: 27, 15, 39, 37, 39, and 34 points. It's as simple as that. And I say this as someone who has been one of his bigger defenders on this site.

I hear ya.  Those aren't bad numbers for a third line center though.  If we can start new this season like we've never even heard of Sean couturier but heard he could be a good third line center, maybe we can accept him on the team.

 

Some are saying that we shouldn't be disappointed in him with all of the facts laid out on the table though.  I just don't understand that.  High draft pick, back to back 96 point junior years, and a promising rookie season gave us hope that we'd have a good first or second line center for many years.  He hasn't shown any of that since that season 5 years ago.

 

But it was 5 years ago so maybe we should move on.  If we break it down, he's probably not as bad as the haters make him out to be, and he's not as good as the lovers think he is.  He's probably somewhere in the middle.  When we read the forums or read headlines like "Sean couturier due for a breakout season" we push back and overcompensate to prove our points the other way.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if the team starts getting more contributions

from players we expect (Sean couturier excluded), I can just zone out when the third line is out there.  When that third line (or the PK for that matter) starts giving up lots of chances though, you bet I'll be back on the hate wagon.

[King Knut]

35 minutes ago, vis said:

Really cannot believe that some folks seem to be advocating that Couturier be given an expanded offensive role.

 

There is no expanding his role.  He is already the 2nd best scorer on the team at Even Strength and the best overall player production wise at even strength.  He was already on the 2nd PP Unit.  He already played the 2nd most minutes per night for a Center.

 

Here's the long and short of Couturier and his offensive role:

 

If the Defense improves and holds, allowing Hakstol to run his system (the one from the beginning of the year and the one from after the trade deadline) and not pull all his forwards back into their own zone all the time, then Even Strength Scoring will improve  up and down the team.  Giroux will score more, Voracek will score more, Simmonds, Filppula, Konecney, maybe even Read and Raffl and yes, DEFINITELY COUTURIER will score more.  

 

If they put him with line mates and leave them there for a while, they will ALL score more.  

It won't be expanding his role. 

 

Now I've been clear that I don't think it's worth putting him on the 2nd PP unit any longer.  They'll have options.  Last year, they literally had no better options that didn't involve breaking up the first PP Unit which was clicking enough for both units.

 

Additionally, I don't want Coots on the 2nd PP Unit because he's going to be seeing more PK time with PEB and VDV gone (probably a good thing).  

 

Finally, I think it's a good idea that we both prepare ourselves for the fact that in spite of our desires, Coots might see some 2nd Unit time this season.

 

-The entire PP will probably be retooled under Knoblach.  He'll have plenty of ideas.

-There's a possibility that even Patrick he makes the team and even if they put him on the PP Unit, the team might NOT want Patrick to Center that 2nd PP unit.  They may want him in a role similar to what Schenn or Voracek do on the first unit at least for his first season.  

-IF THAT OCCURS, there is literally no one else better to center the 2nd PP Unit than Couturier.  This team isn't hiding a Rod Brind'Amour and not telling us.

   -Filppula is no better at the PP than Couturier and he will most likely be moving back to wing this year anyway.

   -Lehtera is no better than Couturier on the PP and I'm not even sure he makes the opening night roster at this point.

   -if Lehtera isn't the 4th Center, then Laughton will most likely be that guy and he has less experience and zero production on the PP in the pros or minors.  

   -If by some fluke, Vecchione makes the team over Lehtera and Laughton and starts the year centering the 4th line, he will have even less experience on a pro power play than Laughton.

 

As I've said before, I don't think he should be there, but if they don't want to use Patrick as the Center, they'll have little choice.

HOWEVER, the bright side is that if they DO use him on the 2nd PP unit, giving him players like Konecny, Lindblom and Weal to play with will help make that unit more productive than when it was Cousins, and Weise.   There's also an OUTSIDE chance Sanheim makes the team out of camp.  They'd still have to figure out what to do with MacDonald, but it's a definite possiblity.  This will improbe the 2nd unit vastly.  I love Provo, but Sanheim will be better in that role and not playing it would allow Provo to focus on Even Strength and PK duty.

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, icehole said:

I hear ya.  Those aren't bad numbers for a third line center though.  If we can start new this season like we've never even heard of Sean couturier but heard he could be a good third line center, maybe we can accept him on the team.

 

Some are saying that we shouldn't be disappointed in him with all of the facts laid out on the table though.  I just don't understand that.  High draft pick, back to back 96 point junior years, and a promising rookie season gave us hope that we'd have a good first or second line center for many years.  He hasn't shown any of that since that season 5 years ago.

 

But it was 5 years ago so maybe we should move on.  If we break it down, he's probably not as bad as the haters make him out to be, and he's not as good as the lovers think he is.  He's probably somewhere in the middle.  When we read the forums or read headlines like "Sean couturier due for a breakout season" we push back and overcompensate to prove our points the other way.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if the team starts getting more contributions

from players we expect (Sean couturier excluded), I can just zone out when the third line is out there.  When that third line (or the PK for that matter) starts giving up lots of chances though, you bet I'll be back on the hate wagon.

 

 

The problems with this team are so deep that Couturier magically started putting up 65 points next year probably wouldn't change a thing as far as the team's overall success...

 

 

However, the inverse IS likely true.  If the team fixes the problems that made Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds and Schenn such god awful even strength players, then the chances are very very good that Couturier will start producing more as well. It's my belief that the problems aren't with THOSE players.  They're not all terrible hockey players.  They're actually pretty good hockey players.  It's just very hard to score goals at even strength when you start your attack with 5 players deep inside their own zone.

 

We're looking at a team where the two $8million first line guys put up 61 &  54 pts, and were both double digit MINUS players. Meanwhile, here we are debating how disappointed we are with the guy who costs half as much money but played better than both of the 8 million dollar guys at even strength.  

 

Would the folks on this board really be happier if Couturier was also putting up 61 points but was a -24 like Voracek?  

 

3/4 of this team were simply NOT WORKING last year. Coots was part of the 1/4 that WAS working but without a doubt COULD be working better.  

 

Whether I'm a mechanic tasked with fixing a car, a doctor fixing a heart or a coach or GM fixing hockey team, I'm going to start with the parts that Aren't working at all, rather than the one that could be working better.

 

Sometimes I really don't understand these fans of ours.  

 

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

14 minutes ago, icehole said:

I hear ya.  Those aren't bad numbers for a third line center though.  If we can start new this season like we've never even heard of Sean couturier but heard he could be a good third line center, maybe we can accept him on the team.

 

Some are saying that we shouldn't be disappointed in him with all of the facts laid out on the table though.  I just don't understand that.  High draft pick, back to back 96 point junior years, and a promising rookie season gave us hope that we'd have a good first or second line center for many years.  He hasn't shown any of that since that season 5 years ago.

 

But it was 5 years ago so maybe we should move on.  If we break it down, he's probably not as bad as the haters make him out to be, and he's not as good as the lovers think he is.  He's probably somewhere in the middle.  When we read the forums or read headlines like "Sean couturier due for a breakout season" we push back and overcompensate to prove our points the other way.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if the team starts getting more contributions

from players we expect (Sean couturier excluded), I can just zone out when the third line is out there.  When that third line (or the PK for that matter) starts giving up lots of chances though, you bet I'll be back on the hate wagon.

 

The problem is he was the second line center far too often last year.

 

I do accept him. I have for a while. He is what he is – and I generally don't have a problem with what he is. The problem is the folks who think he will still break out or can if "given the right linemates". But as a third line center and reliable penalty killer, he is absolutely fine.

[fanaticV3.0]

18 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

There is no expanding his role.  He is already the 2nd best scorer on the team at Even Strength and the best overall player production wise at even strength.  He was already on the 2nd PP Unit.  He already played the 2nd most minutes per night for a Center.

 

Here's the long and short of Couturier and his offensive role:

 

If the Defense improves and holds, allowing Hakstol to run his system (the one from the beginning of the year and the one from after the trade deadline) and not pull all his forwards back into their own zone all the time, then Even Strength Scoring will improve  up and down the team.  Giroux will score more, Voracek will score more, Simmonds, Filppula, Konecney, maybe even Read and Raffl and yes, DEFINITELY COUTURIER will score more.  

 

If they put him with line mates and leave them there for a while, they will ALL score more.  

It won't be expanding his role. 

 

Now I've been clear that I don't think it's worth putting him on the 2nd PP unit any longer.  They'll have options.  Last year, they literally had no better options that didn't involve breaking up the first PP Unit which was clicking enough for both units.

 

Additionally, I don't want Coots on the 2nd PP Unit because he's going to be seeing more PK time with PEB and VDV gone (probably a good thing).  

 

Finally, I think it's a good idea that we both prepare ourselves for the fact that in spite of our desires, Coots might see some 2nd Unit time this season.

 

-The entire PP will probably be retooled under Knoblach.  He'll have plenty of ideas.

-There's a possibility that even Patrick he makes the team and even if they put him on the PP Unit, the team might NOT want Patrick to Center that 2nd PP unit.  They may want him in a role similar to what Schenn or Voracek do on the first unit at least for his first season.  

-IF THAT OCCURS, there is literally no one else better to center the 2nd PP Unit than Couturier.  This team isn't hiding a Rod Brind'Amour and not telling us.

   -Filppula is no better at the PP than Couturier and he will most likely be moving back to wing this year anyway.

   -Lehtera is no better than Couturier on the PP and I'm not even sure he makes the opening night roster at this point.

   -if Lehtera isn't the 4th Center, then Laughton will most likely be that guy and he has less experience and zero production on the PP in the pros or minors.  

   -If by some fluke, Vecchione makes the team over Lehtera and Laughton and starts the year centering the 4th line, he will have even less experience on a pro power play than Laughton.

 

As I've said before, I don't think he should be there, but if they don't want to use Patrick as the Center, they'll have little choice.

HOWEVER, the bright side is that if they DO use him on the 2nd PP unit, giving him players like Konecny, Lindblom and Weal to play with will help make that unit more productive than when it was Cousins, and Weise.   There's also an OUTSIDE chance Sanheim makes the team out of camp.  They'd still have to figure out what to do with MacDonald, but it's a definite possiblity.  This will improbe the 2nd unit vastly.  I love Provo, but Sanheim will be better in that role and not playing it would allow Provo to focus on Even Strength and PK duty.

 

Shut up. Please, I am begging you.

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Shut up. Please, I am begging you.

 

Just ignore me if you can't cope with reason and logic.

 

Last question:  Why complain about the part of the car that is working but could be working better than the parts that simply are completely dysfunctional?

 

Don't get back to me.  Just go and ignore me.  

 

[brelic]

38 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

There is no expanding his role.  He is already the 2nd best scorer on the team at Even Strength and the best overall player production wise at even strength.  He was already on the 2nd PP Unit.  He already played the 2nd most minutes per night for a Center.

 

Here's the long and short of Couturier and his offensive role:

 

If the Defense improves and holds, allowing Hakstol to run his system (the one from the beginning of the year and the one from after the trade deadline) and not pull all his forwards back into their own zone all the time, then Even Strength Scoring will improve  up and down the team.  Giroux will score more, Voracek will score more, Simmonds, Filppula, Konecney, maybe even Read and Raffl and yes, DEFINITELY COUTURIER will score more.  

 

If they put him with line mates and leave them there for a while, they will ALL score more.  

It won't be expanding his role. 

 

Now I've been clear that I don't think it's worth putting him on the 2nd PP unit any longer.  They'll have options.  Last year, they literally had no better options that didn't involve breaking up the first PP Unit which was clicking enough for both units.

 

Additionally, I don't want Coots on the 2nd PP Unit because he's going to be seeing more PK time with PEB and VDV gone (probably a good thing).  

 

Finally, I think it's a good idea that we both prepare ourselves for the fact that in spite of our desires, Coots might see some 2nd Unit time this season.

 

-The entire PP will probably be retooled under Knoblach.  He'll have plenty of ideas.

-There's a possibility that even Patrick he makes the team and even if they put him on the PP Unit, the team might NOT want Patrick to Center that 2nd PP unit.  They may want him in a role similar to what Schenn or Voracek do on the first unit at least for his first season.  

-IF THAT OCCURS, there is literally no one else better to center the 2nd PP Unit than Couturier.  This team isn't hiding a Rod Brind'Amour and not telling us.

   -Filppula is no better at the PP than Couturier and he will most likely be moving back to wing this year anyway.

   -Lehtera is no better than Couturier on the PP and I'm not even sure he makes the opening night roster at this point.

   -if Lehtera isn't the 4th Center, then Laughton will most likely be that guy and he has less experience and zero production on the PP in the pros or minors.  

   -If by some fluke, Vecchione makes the team over Lehtera and Laughton and starts the year centering the 4th line, he will have even less experience on a pro power play than Laughton.

 

As I've said before, I don't think he should be there, but if they don't want to use Patrick as the Center, they'll have little choice.

HOWEVER, the bright side is that if they DO use him on the 2nd PP unit, giving him players like Konecny, Lindblom and Weal to play with will help make that unit more productive than when it was Cousins, and Weise.   There's also an OUTSIDE chance Sanheim makes the team out of camp.  They'd still have to figure out what to do with MacDonald, but it's a definite possiblity.  This will improbe the 2nd unit vastly.  I love Provo, but Sanheim will be better in that role and not playing it would allow Provo to focus on Even Strength and PK duty.

 

 

I dunno, when you need about a dozen paragraphs and countless IF statements to justify and predict why someone will increase their production, it's not a good sign.

 

The truth is, he's going in his SEVENTH season, he's already played 416 NHL games. He'll be 25 in December.

 

He is what he is. I would wager that two seasons ago was his statistical peak (39 points, 0.62 ppg). 23-24 years old is the median statistical peak of NHL players. 

 

There is nothing wrong with that. Every team needs defensively responsible players who can put up 30-40 points - and those guys are usually 3rd line-ish. That's what he is.

 

The issue some posters are having, as I see it and tend to agree, is EXPECTING more production from him when the evidence keeps mounting that it simply will not happen. If it ever does, awesome!!! We're all Flyer fans, and we'd all be excited! But it makes no logical sense to expect anything different from what we've seen over the past 416 games and SEVEN NHL seasons.