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Team Better 5 on 5 Under Hakstol than Gordon


Howie58

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Greetings:

 

I saw this post last night.  There is lots of food for thought:

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/scott-gordon-done-enough-keep-173647021.html

 

Our goal and special teams have saved the day.  I am not sure what this says about Gordon.  Our wins and losses are radically different.  Is this a comment on Hart, or that special teams play is "where it's at."  One thing seems certain--whether it's Q or Gordon, our squad outside of goal probably needs lots of retooling.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

I saw this post last night.  There is lots of food for thought:

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/scott-gordon-done-enough-keep-173647021.html

 

Our goal and special teams have saved the day.  I am not sure what this says about Gordon.  Our wins and losses are radically different.  Is this a comment on Hart, or that special teams play is "where it's at."  One thing seems certain--whether it's Q or Gordon, our squad outside of goal probably needs lots of retooling.

 

 

 

 

One thing is for certain goaltending can mask certain issues.

 

Special teams has improved.

 

The power play still struggles but the PK has improved a lot...and that is where good goaltending can help.

 

The 5 on 5 issue could be contributed a lot to more kids in the lineup learning on the job.

 

Guys like TK, Sanheim and Lindblom getting bigger minutes and roles will lead to the numbers sliding some in the wrong direction for sure.

 

However sometimes to numbers can be misleading. I still think they make the switch to Q at seasons end.

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3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

The power play still struggles

 

The numbers don't bear that out.  Just saying.  This has actually been a huge improvement.   You're not alone in saying this, but it's simply flatly untrue.


Since the Allstar break (at 17 games it's over 1/5 and nearing a 1/4 of the season), the Flyers are THIRD in the league in playoff percentage at 25%.   If that's struggling, then I'm using a different definition.  And this has nothing to do with the goalie.   There's been significant structural changes.  Like any fan, I want more.   

Agree about the penalty kill.  We're 8th in the league in since the allstar break (down from sixth in the last few games).  86.7% is decent.  I mean, it's certainly good enough that it can't be called a liability.  Obviously, goalie has to do with that, but in the last 17 games, goalies not named Hart have played vastly more games than players named Hart.  And their PK stunk with Elliott at the beginning of the season.

 

Again, there's been structural and approach changes.  Also, some personnel changes.  We don't have Lehterrible out there anymore.  Or Weise.  (As an aside, some of this is so "no crap" that you really have to wonder what the hell Hakstol/Murphy were doing!).

 

The rest of this is kind of in response to what I view as a ridiculous claim regarding Hakstol vs. Gordon and not directed at you.

 

Since the Allstar game, the Flyers are actually second in the league in scoring.  I actually just now realized that.  What's really weird to me is that they're behind only Chicago!    The Flyers are scoring 3.71 GF/G.     The interesting thing is that for all the "it's the goalie(s)!" talk, they are still 23rd in the league in GA/G.  Even just since the all-star break.   Anecdotally, I wouldn't have guessed that.   By comparison, we were 28th at 3.40 GAA before the allstar break and 22nd in the league in goals for at 2.82.   We've improved by nearly a goal a game for.   Before the break, we were dead last in power play goals and 29th in PP%.

 

Maybe 5v5 hasn't changed much.   But...we're 15th in the league at 5v5 GF% (52%) since the allstar break.  Prior to the allstar break we were 25th at 48%.  Meaning of total goals scored in a Flyers game at 5v5, the Flyers were giving up more than they were scoring.  They've reversed it by the same proportion.   So, slight but important improvement 5v5 and a light-jump on both special teams.

 

completely  disagree with the headline of this thread  ("Team Better 5-on-5 under Hakstol than Gordon").  It's just simply not true.  And even if it stayed the same, the addition of a goal/game and a half a goal less per game given up on PK?  (6 goals given up in 17 games vs. 37 in 51) is enough to change the fortunes of any team.   I think the "team better 5-on-5 under Hakstol" claim is simply absurd.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

The numbers don't bear that out.

 

Sure but my eyeballs do.

 

Image result for eye ball gif

 

Sorry i don't watch numbers i watch the games.

 

9 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Since the Allstar break (at 17 games it's over 1/5 and nearing a 1/4 of the season), the Flyers are THIRD in the league in playoff percentage at 25%. 

 

And since we are picking windows...let's just go with the what have you done for me lately mindset...

 

...the last 10 games they have just 3 power play goals.

 

That there is not good enough...not going to cut it when they are fighting for the playoffs.

 

They stink...they still pass to damn much.

 

They need to try and get shots on net and stop with looking for the perfect open lane.

 

And it's really the 1st PP that is struggling the 2nd power play has carried them all season.

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13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And it's really the 1st PP that is struggling the 2nd power play has carried them all season

I think this is accurate. We've both been saying that for awhile. 

 

I was at the Ducks game in early February (I get to very few).  Everyone around me was yelling for the second unit.   Their entry is different and then they just shoot and crash more.  I'd like to see more of that from the first unit. 

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By the way, i was only picking the window available to me on the site I was on.  But it's a decent demarcation.  I could pick out any random two week window and get really skewed numbers one way or the other. It's not a big enough sample and doesn't necessarily mean anything (though it certainly can).  

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3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I think this is accurate. We've both been saying that for awhile. 

 

I was at the Ducks game in early February (I get to very few).  Everyone around me was yelling for the second unit.   Their entry is different and then they just shoot and crash more.  I'd like to see more of that from the first unit. 

 

They also much worse on the road.

 

15th at home and 28th on the road.

 

Add on top of that 9 shorties given up (7th) compared to only 34 power play goals total (22nd).

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7 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

By the way, i was only picking the window available to me on the site I was on.  But it's a decent demarcation.  I could pick out any random two week window and get really skewed numbers one way or the other. It's not a big enough sample and doesn't necessarily mean anything (though it certainly can).  

 

I'm ok with the window.

 

It has slightly gotten better but just not enough.

 

I think the staff needs to go...sorry. It's not enough.

 

They can not afford to waste another year figuring this out.

 

Giroux and Jake ain't getting any younger.

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4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They also much worse on the road.

 

15th at home and 28th on the road.

 

Add on top of that 9 shorties given up (7th) compared to only 34 power play goals total (22nd).

All year. But you're including stuff that is Hakstol's results.  That's not remotely helpful (or fair) in a discussion of Hakstol vs Gordon. This is why post AllStar vs pre-allstar is actually better.  In another thread i compared post-AllStar vs October & November.  The difference is stunning, and a fair comparison. Nobody's numbers are lumped into the other coach's and Gordon isn't penalized for the month or so transition period. 

 

There is no way to soberly positively compare Hakstol to Gordon. 

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6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm ok with the window.

 

It has slightly gotten better but just not enough.

 

I think the staff needs to go...sorry. It's not enough.

 

They can not afford to waste another year figuring this out.

 

Giroux and Jake ain't getting any younger.

I don't know how much better you can get than 75 to 87.5% on the power play. 

 

I'm not even discussing for or against whether Gordon or anyone stays. I'm simply objecting to the claim Hakstol was better at *anything* or that there hasn't been improvement at almost every aspect not named Gostisbehere. 

 

The numbers are proof, but even simply watching it.  

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1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

But you're including stuff that is Hakstol's results. 

 

Sure it is because guess what the guy who is still here Knoblach is still here despite the coaching change and i don't see much difference they still pass to damn much and still get a lot of their shots blocked.

 

So until Knobby is gone i don't see it changing why i say fire the whole group. GAME RESET!!!!

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1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

I don't know how much better you can get than 75 to 87.5% on the power play. 

 

Sure however what you're not taking into consideration is they are getting goals against team with not so good PKs too.

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But to meet you on your subject (does Gordon deserve to stay?)... 

 

I wouldn't advocate for him staying. And I don't think that was or is the plan. 

 

My preference would be that he understood this was an interim gig and is good going back to Lehigh. I don't know whether that's realistic, but Fletcher was fairly emphatic when the change was made that this was an interim gig and that Gordon was doing him a favor agreeing to come up. 

 

I'd like wholesale change. Wilson has been decent, but I saw him as a temporary "help me out" move, too. 

 

I've said elsewhere that while I'm not against Q, I'm weirdly not comfortable with it. I'm going to sound like you a little, but I'm just "wait and see" with that one. 

 

I'd kind of like to go younger, but I'm not against. Just really a noncommittal "wait and see." 

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6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure it is because guess what the guy who is still here Knoblach is still here despite the coaching change and i don't see much difference they still pass to damn much and still get a lot of their shots blocked.

 

So until Knobby is gone i don't see it changing why i say fire the whole group. GAME RESET!!!!

I think that's fair to an extent. 

 

But there have been some personnel changes and, frankly, the results are simply much better. 

 

What you describe is something i also see. But what is weird is that I see alot less of it on the 2nd unit. It's an entirely different approach/philosophy.  From entry, to set up, to urgency, etc.  

 

So, stipulating that Knob should be replaced, given the fact the two units look very different, is it different by design? Is it a lack of ability to get the first unit to listen? Is the first unit just fat players who are going to do it their way, coaching be damned?  Or is it the second unit figuring they have 35 seconds to show they should move up? 

 

I don't know. But it IS vastly different. 

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10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure however what you're not taking into consideration is they are getting goals against team with not so good PKs too.

That's fine, but they weren't even doing that previously.  And it's not like they haven't done well against teams with good power plays. 

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1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

But there have been some personnel changes and, frankly, the results are simply much better. 

 

And 22 (65%) of their 34 powerplay goals have come from just 3 guys. Coots, JVR and Simmer who isn't even here anymore.

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1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And 22 (65%) of their 34 powerplay goals have come from just 3 guys. Coots, JVR and Simmer who isn't even here anymore.

How different is that from other teams?  I don't (and I'm guessing you don't either) have the patience to figure that out, but I'm betting the majority of PP goals on any team are by 2-3 guys.  That's not really a concern to me. 

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Gordon has a few pluses in my book at this point. Weise, gone. Lehtera, gone. MacDud, HOPEFULLY we have seen the last of him on the ice for the Flyers. He is making changes and some adjustments IN Game. He is not afraid to take a time out. I love watching Myers on the ice. He needs to get  a little better at handling the puck but his skating and defensive skills will put him in the top 2 pairings. I am not sure why he keeps putting Elliott on the ice but it could be because his only other option is Talbot with Hart being injured. Talbot has looked abysmal at times but he has been lucky too. I believe like Rux said that Gordon will ultimately go back to LHV and Fletcher will put in HIS choice of coach for this team.

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7 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

How different is that from other teams?  I don't (and I'm guessing you don't either) have the patience to figure that out, but I'm betting the majority of PP goals on any team are by 2-3 guys.  That's not really a concern to me. 

 

It's pointing out that a lot of the goals are trash goals deflections and the rebounds are ending up in the net....meaning guys need to get shots on net...it doesn't have to be pretty it just needs to be on goal and not blocked. 18th in the NHL for total shots on goal.

 

-127 (19th) shots attempts 5 on 5 could be much better too.

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34 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

It's pointing out that a lot of the goals are trash goals deflections and the rebounds are ending up in the net....meaning guys need to get shots on net...it doesn't have to be pretty it just needs to be on goal and not blocked. 18th in the NHL for total shots on goal.

I don't understand how this is different from other teams. The "trash/deflection" sounds like a powerplay. 

 

And at 87.5% it sounds like shots are better or you wouldn't be getting the trash/deflections. 

 

Again, this isn't to say there isn't room for improvement. My entire point is positively comparing Hakstol over Gordon in any way is absurd and ignoring what is clearly obvious both on the ice, the stat sheet, and the record. 

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

I don't understand how this is different from other teams. The "trash/deflection" sounds like a powerplay. 

 

And at 87.5% it sounds like shots are better or you wouldn't be getting the trash/deflections. 

 

Again, this isn't to say there isn't room for improvement. My entire point is positively comparing Hakstol over Gordon in any way is absurd and ignoring what is clearly obvious both on the ice, the stat sheet, and the record. 

 

Well I will say again. I don't see much difference.

 

Can't say it any other way.

 

Sorry.

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17 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well I will say again. I don't see much difference.

 

Can't say it any other way.

 

Sorry.

I call that reality denial. 

 

Can't say it any other way. 

 

Sorry. 

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