terp

it's about using the roster spot of the backup goaltender to best effect

Agree with this and while I don't know for sure what will happen, I think there is a good chance that the Flyers decide that another year of Bob as backup is the best use of resources. As I wrote in an earlier post, there are not a lot of obvious upgrades that cost the same or less. Also, don't get too caught up in my use of the word "potential". By this I mean that it is reasonable to think Bob can do just fine starting 25 games or so and serving as an insurance policy if Bryzgalov is injured for a long stretch.

I know this is a little premature because they havent won anything yet but just giving props where due. When was the last time you saw a team so completely dominant in a playoff run?

It has been a long time. On the other hand, I suspect they are the only 8th seed EVER to dominate like this. On that basis, a special moment for sure.

well, i don't know. 3.02/.899sv% and some serious focus questions last season, not sure that bob showed himself to be king of any hill. boucher's numbers were worse, but he played behind a WAY worse team than bob. you know what you are going to get with boucher: not many embarassing softies, but a steady stream of "wish he was better". which is, imo, the definition of a backup goalie. else, he would be a starter. same with biron. he isn't great, but doesn't have OMGUSUK moments often. not a difference maker, but steady average.

what worries me is that bob did have a bunch of those OMG moments last season. he really seemed to struggle with focus after extended bench time, and his technique regressed, if anything. making saves on plays during drills in practice is a very different animal from making saves in a live fire environment, and some goalies need game time to get and keep themselves sharp. bob strikes me as that kind of goalie. has showed he is that kind of goalie. maybe he can tighten that up and become a reliable off-the-bench backup over the next several years...but why hope for that eventually when you could just go out and get it now?

names, well... biron is UFA this summer, made $875k with NYR, so he's an option. boucher is under contract for another season in carolina for $950k, obviously you aren't going to spend big assets to get him, and really i wouldn't think carolina is motivated to move him for a 5th round pick or anything...don't know of any guy they have waiting in the wings. curtis sandford is UFA, and had a pretty ok season all things considered in columbus, and would be cheap. montoya in NYI is UFA. macdonald in detroit is cheap. i'd say the most interesting two are clemmensen and harding, both are UFA and both have shown themselves very comfortable with spot starts and relief appearances. i'd probably look most closely at those two. i have to think harding is going to want a shot at a starting job, so that might make negotiations a little rough, given the bryzgalov thing. i'd be pretty ok with clemmensen.

i mean, remember, the job is to start in 20-25 games, and to be available mid-game if something happens to the starter. you don't need a world beater, you just want a guy who is going to give a solid effort you can win in front of on short notice. you don't look at your backup to win games *for* you, you just don't want him to lose games for you. bob was unsteady last season, and that is a common thing for a young goalie. if you are trying to develop your starter of the future, you are willing to deal with that instability. if you have no intention of that guy being the man in the next couple years, though, why put up with a kid's growing pains? why not go with a stable and developed adult who, while posessing a lower potential ceiling overall, has a professional understanding and acceptance of what his role is and has the appropriate mindset/disposition to do it?

as for bob's value....i don't know. i think after his rookie year, there were a lot of people around the league who saw him and went, "hey, the kid could be great, did you see him for the first, like, 3/4ths of the season? we can work with that, he burned out, but hey, he'll grow into it," and would have valued him relatively high. with last season, though, i have to think the common view is, "ah, one of those, flashy entrance, and then flame out. we've seen that before, we see that every few years. pass." i could be wrong, but i think he's gone from being a worthwhile bet to a longshot really only interesting to teams in a bind. don't get me wrong, there are teams in a bind, i can see tampa sending something back for him. it's just that this time last season, they maybe would have sent a 2nd round pick for him, today we're talking about a 5th.

edit: and i have to disagree with the "we don't lose out by hanging on to him because goalies don't develop linearly" thing. you are, of course, correct, a lot of goalies pop their heads up at age 30 and are suddenly effective..but they were worthless prior to that. smith was waived by tampa, AND cleared re-entry waivers...no one in the league would take him for free with half the cap hit. thomas's rights went un-owned for 2 years before he signed with boston in 05. age 29-31 no one wanted to even add him to the deeps of their depth charts.

a ton of goalies make appearances in the league every year, a lot of them have exciting debuts. very few of them pan out. people are very used to seeing goalies who look great for a few months amount to nothing at all, and the value bob established out of the gate will fade fast. he was unknown before he showed up in the flyers' camp, and he is sliding back into unknown. another season like he had last, and it becomes a question if anyone signs him at all next summer, or he just heads back to europe like so many others have. where oh where is karri ramo, once one of the most highly touted goaltending prospects in the world? two unimpressive seasons in north america and he is now in the KHL.

the other thing we have to lose are the occasional starts that bob gets, and the iffy play he brings, should he respond to inconsistent ice time like he did last season. that counts, too.

If you ask around this board, i think you'll find several who recall many OMGUSUK moments from Boucher and especially Biron, who let in some catastrophic softies. Agree about Harding, who may be this year's backup who someone really thinks can carry the load. So, long story short, there is Clemmensen? He'll probably cost almost as much as Bob and as you point out, we might get a 5th in return for Bob, if Clemmensen is down for backing up Bryzgalov. If people in the Flyers org have even a slightly more rosy view of Bob's potential than you, one can imagine why the Flyers would not be in a rush to get this done.

the problem is bob was bad last season. he really didn't do well coming off the bench, and any progress he made during the previous season was undone by just sitting there for so long. if the idea is to more consistently give bryzgalov time, bob will only get worse. beyond that, what was decent trade value in a surprising rookie goalie has already erroded to very little value.....

on the one hand, bob is not a stable and realible option to sit second string. on the other, his abilities are likely to continue to atrophy getting a couple starts every month. it seems to me it is a lose-lose situation for the flyers and bob himself.

Bob has pretty marginal trade value right now and I don't think it took much of a hit because of his performance this past season. He's still seen as having a ceiling of "1A", tweener or what have you. Young goaltenders often don't develop linearly (Smith, Thomas, on and on). So we don't lose out by hanging on to him. In fact, unlike any of the backups that are available, he may develop into a goaltender with some actual value.

Also, in order to actually consider unloading him, you have to have an actual player in mind and not merely the notion that a veteran, former #1 would be a better fit. I agree that Vokoun would actually fill out this "notion" nicely. But he is more expensive than Bob and what's more, he's already gone. So who else? I think you are way to kind to Boucher at this point because while he's a great teammate, he was horribly inconsistent. Biron? I know you don't really mean that. My point is, show me a better back up and I'll show you a more expensive player who is at best a marginal improvement, if at all.

The Flyers are full of surprises so you never know but at least for now, I'd say it is more likely than not that Bob is with the team in training camp.

The Devils don't know what hit them because they haven't played badly by any means. I think they played as well as they played against the Flyers and the Rangers but the Kings execution is spectacular right now. They are getting schooled by a hot team with a mega, white hot goaltender.

I didn't see any name above that I thought made more sense than bringing back Bob for another season. In particular, I think penciling in Hovinen, who has no North American experience, is a horrible idea.

I would not assume the Flyers have decided to move Bob. They may or may not have "gone after" Vokoun. If they did, they thought Vokoun made sense but that doesn't mean that they think a lot of other guys out there are a better alternative to Bob. I'm not even sure Vokoun would be a better alternative, not because I don't think he can play (he can) or because I don't like his willingness to speak his mind (I do). I'm just not sure our head case starter could deal with being on the same roster as Vokoun.

@terp

I've heard the guys on Hockey Central mention that Carter wasn't happy in Columbus. His numbers there were pretty average, so I'd take that for the truth. I never hated Carter, but I'd do that trade all day long.

The trade is right up there with Homer's best. No debate there.

People can be quick to jump on a player with little justification so I was intersted in knowing where the bad apple stuff came from. Seems plausible that his behavior fell somewhere between understandable and slightly petulant. I'm pretty sure that in addition to Nash, most of the team would like to get out of there but most of those players don't have any leverage and no one reports on them in the hockey press anyway.

The thing that pisses me off the most about this situation is that Carter was not traded to the Kings; he handled himself quite unprofessionally during his trade and time in Colombus. He gave little effort in Columbus and basically whined his way out of town and into the finals on the coat tails of the rest of the Kings team.

People seem to be accepting this as gospel but I've not seen it in print other than from Eklund. Has anyone read or heard this from a credible, authoritative source?

@TedZep

I understand Richardson will sit. I don't know that anyone in the line up deserved to sit, so wonder if this move qualifies as monkeying with success. Richardson averaged about 11 minutes versus the Devils but I couldn't assess his performance other than to guess that he's far better suited to a 4th line, energy role than Gagne.

I don't get all the hate. He's what, 25? Would it be so surprising if he put it all together eventually? If he does, good for him.

personally, i think that got made up by hockey writers who don't know what they are talking about. i can't find anything to support that in the CBA. it might be there, but i have looked for it quite a bit.

And I now remember having exactly this same conversation with you on the Philly.com site and the fact that I couldn't find anything about it anywhere.

The only things I can add to the above post by the artist formerly known as aziz is that there are a couple disadvantages for a team with a player on perpetual LTIR:

The player is off LTIR in the offseason, causing that player's salary to count against the grossed up, off season limit (grossed up by 10% under the current CBA).

The LTIR player's contract counts against the maximum number of contracts a team may have.

I believe there is also a provision related to the cap hit for a player acquired at the deadline by a team with an LTIR player but I always need help with it. Anyone?

i wanted to not see that particular play over and over

Non calls on holding up the forechecker are integral to the Devils' success: even if you execute well enough to get out of your end and through the neutral zone, you are out of luck because you are going to get tackled before you can get in on the forecheck. The NHL needs to think about whether it really wants the Devils to win another Cup playing this "crime against hockey" style.

@radoran

If I take the current cap figure, add Pronger back in, (and, using your figures) Bourdon, Voracek, Z and $3.5MM in bonus money, the Flyers are close to $74MM (out of a $75MM off season limit). So perhaps they can't sign Carle right now.

The problem is the cap and not knowing where it will go and also having all bonuses currently counting against it.

I don't see uncertainty about the cap figuring into this because all teams are operating under an assumption that the cap rises. That might need to be addressed by an across the board roll back or not, as the case may be, but all teams have a baseline figure to work from during the summer. I'm not sure about bonus because I just don't know how the numbers work for the Flyers.

If they indeed have $3MM, I believe they also have 10% above the new cap figure of $69MM for the duration of the off season. This gives them about $10MM. If this is correct, it is difficult to imagine that cap space would prevent them from giving Matt Carle a $2MM raise. However, I believe the "off season" begins on July 1. Perhaps this is also the day they announce Carle's resigning.

Apparently, the Kings didn't get the memo. Before the series I thought the Devils were likely to win the Cup. But after watching the Kings last night, I like their chances.

The Kings did what the Flyers and the Rangers couldn't: the executed their way through the NJ pressure and played long stretches in the Devils end. They were fearless and consistent with short, quick, in some cases risky passes to work the puck out of their own end and up ice. The Devils will bring more pressure and to to some degree the series will ride on whether the Kings can continue to execute their way out of that pressure or crack under it like the other teams.

How much pressure can Jersey bring? We're about to find out and we're also about to find out if the Kings can handle it. I'm optimistic they can.

Carle's agent and/or Carle believe they can get more money on the open market than the Flyers are currently offering - if, indeed, an offer has even been made?

I feel very sure an offer has been made. Carle indicated his preference is to stay. Homer seemed to indicate that they were close however I thought he was foolish to say he thought he could keep Carle "below market". Might be that Carle's agent is using time as leverage.

Could be that they aren't as close as Homer suggested. I've seen no scuttlebutt, no speculation even.

Should we make anything of the fact that Matt Carle isn't signed yet?

@fishbulb

I really wish they'd call it more often and try and get it out of the game. It's an embarrassment to the sport.

It isn't called enough to provide any deterrent. I think we're seeing the result of that when we see Dainus Zubrus go down like he did at one juncture last night. Lame, transparent attempts like that one should be penalized without any hesitation whatsoever. Zubrus drew my attention as well because I'm convinced he dove on the play Giroux was suspended on.

6'5", 225 lbs and flopping around like a fish. If only he would whine more.

Roy is an assh*le. With that out of the way, 4 Cups, 3 Conn Smythe Trophies, all time playoff win leader. Marty is a nicer guy (unless you ask his ex wife) and among the all time greats, but Roy has the hardware and the records to be called the best of his era.

Has a more boring hockey team ever existed?

Icing, icing, grabbing, clutching, icing.

It's only 4 minutes in, but cheezus.

I did notice the Devils defenseman more than any others getting away with holding up the forechecker.

Yikes. If that's the asking price, then neither am I.

I think it is a good example of a guy hitting the market at the right time. He's a very good player but I can't see how he is worth that kind of cash.

To think that they are going to have a defense of Timonen-Meszaros-Grossmann-Coburn-Carle-Suter-Lilja (Pronger LTIR) is, IMO ridiculous.

Snider made only one comment that surprised me: that he felt the team had a pretty good season. I believe he's usually a bit more had core in public when it comes to having his annual expectations met.

Also, he doesn't sound like he's desperate enough to sign Suter for $6.5-$7MM per season. I've been wrong before but I don't think they will view the cost/benefit of his contract favorably. I think they would sooner pay Carle over $5MM and find another top 4 defenseman elsewhere to help wind down Timonen's non PP minutes.

I guess that's a hopeful scenario but it means Bryzgalov has sucked for 3 years in a row...his salary will be close to 1/2 of what it is now but you're still talking big $$ for an overpriced loser. I can't see any team willingly taking on Bryzgalov's cap hit after 3 years of failure in Philly. The excuse that he was playing for a lousy team won't be plausible next time. The Flyers have a few shortcomings, obviously, as all teams do, but they aren't anything like Phoenix when Bryzgalov was there.

I think it'll be a tough sell.

It is always better all around for him to play better but Vanflyers point is valid. There are teams that don't spend the cap who are focused on Bryzgalov's salary rather than his cap hit. Suppose he plays decent and somehow in 3 years we have a Corey Schneider type situation with a drafted player (fantasy, I know, but humor me). Bryzgalov could be moved to a small market team that likes his 4 year deal at less than $4MM per.