3 Palmateers

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Come on...for the league minimum there's nothing wrong with this signing.

 

Wanna trade him for Ristolainen? Done!

 The guy will be 39 when puck drops next season. 

This is not an effective strategy but the Leafs like collecting guys well past their primes who'll take minimum deals in the hopes of catching a Cup. 

What happens is you create a culture of passengers. Young guys thinking the vets are going to help carry them and vice-versa. Everyone needs to be a driver not someone looking at the pretty scenery out the window. 

Not a fan of this signing but I like it better than a much younger Simmonds and also Jason Spezza. Joe Thornton was the worst one of them all. Had that guy up playing with Matthews and Marner. 

If this is the hedge against a guy like Justin Holl leaving it's a little more palatable but still not preferred. Again, you don't do things like this unless you're forced into them. The cap situation lends itself to needing deals like this. I would prefer the Leafs were not in such a predicament. 

Oh, good. Another hanger on at the end of a career wishing for a magical Cup run with the Leafs.

Beggars can't be choosers when you're tight up against the cap. 

Unless Florida comes back in series as they have in games, this is an embarrassing exit for the league's "top" team. 

Presidents' Trophy is a burden especially for a team that's never carried it before or had any kind of playoff success. I honestly thought they would've lost to the Caps if not for Tom Wilson's injury. 

Tampa vs. Carolina with Raanta in net sounds like another sweep or 5-gamer for the Bolts. 

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Bolts start the 2nd on the PP.
They will look to take advantage of this opportunity to regain the lead, and set things their way once again.

@3 Palmateers
That's still quite a big jump from taking a bad penalty to the Bolts losing this series. 
No doubt Hagel SHOULD feel bad...now...for that. Most definitely a brain fart move and dangerous on his part.
And the best way he can atone for that is to learn from it, and continue to play hard, but SMART.

If the Bolts end up losing this series it will be because of a LOT more than just Hagel taking a bad penalty which resulted in a Game 3 tie score early on.
If this was a G6 and that penalty led to a forced G7? Sure, I could see your point.

But for now, Bolts will win or lose together.

It is a large jump for sure hence... "if".  One little thing can turn a series around. 5-on-3 comes to mind.

Hagel's penalty was the one that broke the Oh-for streak. As Keith Jones quipped..."they (Florida) were mad".  And, they were. Every series can turn on ANYTHING. A last second goal, a bad penalty that riles up the other team.  A fight. A post. Anything. Hagel was stupid to offer up one of those potential moments whether it came back to bite them, or not. 

About to be 3-0 series lead for Bolts. OVER.  Florida better have another comeback in them or this series is donezo. 

If the Bolts lose this series, Brandon Hagel is going to feel even worse than he should for that egregious cross check into the boards. 

Vasilevskiy with grand theft larceny on Reinhart. Should be 2-1 Panthers. 

Hornqvist gets called on a bizarre play at the end of the period. Don't like that call one bit during the regular season much less a key game like this in Round 2. Champs can wrest back momentum in an instant. 

Love that the game has picked up intensity.

Put on the foil for the 2nd. 

If this one isn't a sweep or 5-gamer I'd be surprised. 

Florida had a very difficult time with a Wilson-less Capitals team. 

The PP isn't going to just become dominant after going 0-24. Far likelier the Panthers exit playoffs Oh-for-whatever on the PP.

The D corps on the Panthers is very suspect. 

Tampa looks like a near shoo-in to defend their title to me. 

Kuch looks like Marner. Ha ha. 

8 hours ago, Math said:

They could have used the Stars' rhetoric to justify this: "Hey, we had 115 pts in the regular season and finished second in a top-loaded division. Moreover, we competed very well against the double SC champs, pushing them to a game #7 and we were one goal away to eliminate them. We love where's the team at. It's as simple as that™."
  
Maybe let's see this thing in a kid's eyes. My little daughter who's a Leafs fan just asked me like 3 days later about the series' outcome: "Well sorry, they lost." -- "Oh it's not cool. When is the next game?" -- "Next fall when the new season begins." -- "Ok!". And she put his Leafs' pink cap and happily went to school.

I wish I could see it like her. Smart little girl, BTW. You're blessed to experience hockey fandom with her. My kids all hate sports but I bought my daughter a pink Leafs jersey and she wore it one night during the playoffs and was on the couch with me watching one of the games. They don't come often so that was pretty special to have her watch with me.

Sadly, I see it like Paul Coffey... 

Couldn't agree more. Can't see the forest for the trees. These guys don't get it. It has become them...all of them. Need a new perspective. A new tone set, a new culture, and that only comes through change. 

Why they would even consider staying the same is baffling. Is Tampa going to be worse next season? Are they counting on attrition of other teams to get where they want to go? Hey, we'll stay the same while we predict everyone else will get a little worse and then it's our time to shine. I mean, I guess that worked for Boston, as in, they're now better than them. Maybe, it'll work with the rest of the league, too?

13 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

What people in management say and what they plan to do are often very different things.

 

I couldn't agree more. Calling losing, again, progress was beyond bizarre. "It felt different." This org loves to spin and twist losing into not losing more than any other I've ever seen. 

If anyone watched these, you can't feel good about what's coming in 2022/23. 

The same exact nonsense uttered...growth, belief, close, etc. 

Shanahan stated he wasn't going to make changes for the sake of making changes. Uh, 4 straight series losses on Kyle's watch and 3 under Keefe, and you're bringing them back to make it 5 and 4, respectively?

Years ago many fans like me were hammering on intangibles and their need on this team. Here they are years later talking about how they need more drive and intensity and killer instinct. Yeah. We know. 

Depressing this team thinks the definition of insanity is the way to see different results. Expectations should be extremely low going into next season. Kyle is very unlikely to find another Bunting and he's likely to have a new goalie tandem. Doesn't bode well for success. I'd like to see the Leafs not make the playoffs to finally rid the org of things it needs ridding of. Not a single media member asked...What happens if another 1st round exit happens next season? It should be made clear that Kyle wouldn't be back should that happen. Keefe, too. Nope. We know losing is acceptable in Toronto. We've seen it for 6 straight seasons, and it wasn't the reason Babs or Lou aren't here anymore. Losing isn't all that important in Toronto and certainly no reason for change. Comfy culture. 

Elliotte Friedman summed some things up on a recent podcast of Kyper and Bourne...

And, just in case anyone wanted further confirmation:

4 hours ago, yave1964 said:

I was looking for the punch line in here, I thought it was going to be something about another game seven loss but then realized it was real. Agree with @Brewin Flames, people suck.

I thought it was a joke, too. I read it and couldn't believe it.

Reminds me of when Denis Savard was mugged on the streets of Chicago and told to go back to his apartment or he was going to get hurt. Harrowing moment for Savard. 

Can't imagine people with guns and a knife coming after me.

9 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

Fiala's an RFA.

Thanks. I knew he was on a one year but I swear I read during the St. Louis series about a one-year deal for him...and I thought that meant he'd been extended another one.  I see, now, the only one-year is the one from August. 

Searching my history to find what I saw a week or so ago. 

Maple Leafs star Mitch Marner victim of Etobicoke carjacking | Toronto Sun

Glad Jack won't be back and no long-term deals for the kids on D. 

Tavares belongs out of the org, be he can't be moved out, only to wing. 

Big signing? Fiala? That would have to be a trade but Fiala's on a 1-year deal.  A scorer to replace Nylander. 

More tenacity? Yes, please. More, more, more. 

Not overly thrilled to hear Dubas is going to be back. 

Saw this and laughed. I don't share the view, but found it funny nonetheless...

3 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

Yep.
Which is why I stated we will just have to agree to disagree on the point of who was better, because frankly, I also get why a Toronto fan would think THEIRS was the better team and be angry about G6, but perhaps, sidestepping any other 'gifts' that maybe were given them in earlier games in the series?

And the two points we CAN agree on is that one team has moved on and the other didn't, and our opinions won't affect that one iota.
But since this is a message board, and we are diehard fans, opining is what we do here! 

The other point is, the in-state second round should be very fun!

And BTW, that thread is already up with poll, so feel free to discuss your takes on Lightning vs Panthers there. 

If you can give me one example of an equitable example of the 5-on-3 and costing an actual game, I'll agree with you on officiating. I don't think you can. No one can. Look at the 1st Nick Paul goal and tell me what you see. Leafs fans saw this... (BTW, I have no issue with the Holl penalty)

51 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

@3 Palmateers

 

The "better" teams have, indeed, lost series before, but, in this particular case, I believe the better team DID move on.
Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree on that point, and that is fine.

It wasn't like TB was some one-off team or some team that just happened to make it into the playoffs to upset Toronto.
They are the two time champions...and two time champions, FOR A REASON!  
And I really don't think you will find very many people, barring some Toronto fans, who would call the Bolts winning this series "an upset".

Process?
Yep. Tampa Bay had and continues to have their process.
They've lost lots of good players over the course of the last two seasons, entering this season they were hit hardest, all due to the cap.
So their "process" was working new guys in to replace tried and true performers.
That leads to games they will lose during the regular season as they work on that process.
Then, the Lightning get the RESULTS of that process in the playoffs.

So, not to take away anything from Toronto's standing during the regular season, but one could argue had TB not had to work new guys in (Katchouk, Raddysh....then Paul and Hagel once those guys were traded, for instance), maybe THEY win more games during the season, and THEY finish ahead of Toronto.

But, even that is neither here nor there because everybody understands the regular season and playoffs are two different things.
Regular season wins can also be built off the backs of lower level teams like the Coyotes, Canadiens, Sabres, Jets, Flyers, Devils, etc....and then you have travel and weariness that impacts how a team performs on a given night, and maybe a team doesn't go 100% against a team they perhaps are looking past (say, the Red Wings) because they are looking ahead to a team they KNOW they have to be ready against (say, the Avalanche). 

Whereas in the playoffs the focus, game planning, and matching are solely on that one opponent you draw for that round.
Yea...different beast indeed. And at the end of the day, THAT is where champions are developed and forged.
And that is where SC Champions earn their status as 'knowing how to win'.

As for the officiating, one could argue all day long, all night long, and all off season long about how TB should not have gotten this or that, but the officiating was terrible throughout the series.
There were more than a few times where Toronto players could have been called on things that should have resulted in TB PP's and weren't....and there were times when Bolts players were called on VERY borderline things that gave the Leaves® a PP they probably shouldn't have.

It's frustrating, and NO ONE is more frustrated about those things than the players on both sides on the ice. Fan frustration has NOTHING on the players' angst.
But the BETTER teams adapt, take advantage, cash in...whatever you want to call it....and when the time comes for it, take what was given them.
Bolts did, Leaves® didn't.

And if TOR lost G6 on what is perceived as an unfair way, well, then they needed to execute, perform, and put away all doubts in G7, because that is what "better" teams do. 
Especially when you are facing down a two time champion, and not merely some upstart team that played you tough.

Again, Toronto didn't do that, and that is why we have the result we did.

Things will only get more difficult for the Champions (they already did by drawing Florida next!), and they definitely will need to clean up some areas they were sloppy in against Toronto, because the Panthers are indeed a more complete team right now, and, more importantly, have been building up through their own process, including a hard loss to these same Lightning, in last year's playoffs.
And Florida most definitely will cash in on areas where perhaps Toronto didn't.

So the Cats will be ready, are certainly better than they were last year, and the Lightning are going to have to up their games even further if they want to continue defending their Cups, because these Panthers, while still sporting some areas that can be exploited as well (Washington provided some insight to that), are the real deal and I could easily see them as the team that possibly unseats the Bolts and then goes on a run that sees them at Lord Stanley's castle door!

The bolded portion is important here and the surrounding portion. What Tampa did last year or previous years is not germane to being the better team this year. It is about this year, not the past. There is no Yanni Gourde, Goodrow, Coleman. This team is different. It is not as good as the teams of the past, and I don't believe this Tampa team is better than Toronto, hence, them finishing behind them in the standings, and needing a gifted 5-on-3 to keep this series alive past 6 games. I don't think any of these points are disputable. 

I get that a Tampa fan would see Tampa as a better team based on the past, but this is this year. Again, there is a reason Tampa had to play Game 7 in Toronto and that was not because they were the better team. I do agree that Tampa was the likely winner of this series due to the Leafs past failures. If the Leafs were a team with a modicum of playoff success, the majority would've been on the Leafs to win this one. Tampa was not a good team for much of the end of the season until the very end where they got hot for a few games. 

That is the issue, though. Regular season and playoffs are not the same. No question Leafs were a better team in the regular season sense...just not a team with any playoff identity short of being losers. Very hard to flip that around. Tampa's past aided their present where Toronto's past was a detriment equating to a narrow playoff loss, that, again, is very questionable due to what happened in period 3 of Game 6. I do wonder what a Lightning fan would say had the exact scenario played out against them in Game 6, and they ended up losing the series? 

My opinions, your opinions, anyone's opinions are irrelevant. Tampa is onto Round 2. That is what matters. Should be a fun series with the in-state divsional rival. 

Nylander has to go. There is no way he can be back. Him and his 6.9 can go on someone else's books despite the "great" contract for a 30-goal guy. He is a minus as much as he is a plus. Time for him to bring his aloofness elsewhere, and I will love to see it. 

JT would definitely be going if not for the inability to move him due to the NMC. I think he's a dreadful captain and is only there because of the Matthews incident that came to light right before captain was named. It was his until the PR would've been too bad to give it to him. Captain naming should've waited until the story died down and then Matthews should've been named. JT has zero personality. Has no resume as any kind of winner, not that Matthews does, but JT is 30 and not close to the player Auston is. I do think he's a good family guy and projects the right/accepted image. Love that he's a nice guy and squeaky clean but he's non-inspirational. The buzz from his signing has long since worn off.  11 million for JT is an absolute waste of resources. An albatross of a contract that will haunt the Leafs in its remaining years. Robidas Island should be his permanent residence. 

Marner is a fantastic player. My favorite in the league, but moving him has to be debated internally. You can't have 3 guys making 11 million who all don't get it done in the biggest moments. That's not even advisable if they were the type who did get it done in those moments. The salary cap distribution has been disastrous under Dubas. Kadri kept and no acquisition of JT would've been the correct way to go...but Naz had to go because of the continual playoff suspensions. Yet, there is a huge throng saying that the team shouldn't be blown up after SIX playoff series losses. Had Kadri been kept at his 4.5 million, the Leafs would've had 6.5 million in extra cap and been no worse off production wise and had a very inspirational player in Naz. Hindsight is 20/20 and Naz staying and JT never coming was the way it should've been.

Kyle Dubas is a very respectable individual. I love the guy. However, he loves his players too much. They aren't your friends. You have to make tough decisions and throwing cash to JT, Auston and Mitch and even Nylander, at the time, was not wise. Now, he didn't know the cap would be flat at the time he gave them, but his inability to negotiate more team friendly deals has really strapped this team. The JT deal was the worst, and I know others offered more. Kyle should've resisted that temptation. I fear if he stays, he will keep Nylander who is emblematic of much of what has been wrong with this team from the past. I do think the team has grown to put the lack of effort thing to bed. Nylander hasn't, but the team has. A GM that demands winning and doesn't accept losing is needed. The Leafs are way to comfortable reciting the same old phrases after losing. It is unacceptable. It needs to change and remaining the same can't happen. 

Personally, I would love to see Shanahan go. Dubas go. Keefe go. Nylander go. Muzzin and Holl go. Kerfoot go. Mikheyev go (I love him in the regular season) along with Simmonds and Spezza. No way I want Mrazek back but that requires a buyout most likely. I don't want Jack back as the #1. Goalie needs at least an infusion of 2 guys. That's a ton of turnover, but a message has to be sent that if you don't win things aren't going to be everyone wins a trophy kind of a thing around there. Losing is losing whether it is pretty or ugly. Process matters a lot but there is no denying the results. They lost...yes, officiating can be pointed to but they still had an opportunity at home and failed...again. 

Get your popcorn ready. I disagree with Dreger. There should be massive change and it should be fun to watch unfold. 

I don't believe that the team that wins a series is always the better team. 

The Leafs should've won Game 6. We'll never know what happens if the 5-on-3 that shouldn't have been doesn't happen but that's a game the Leafs led until that ridiculous officiating changed. 

Arguing that Toronto was the better team is impossible given the context of the last 3 years, but, if you take that away, as it is all that should matter, Toronto was the better team THIS YEAR, and in THIS SERIES. There is a reason Toronto finished ahead of Tampa in the standings. Losing a 7-game series due to a 1-goal loss at home after losing in OT in a game that should've been yours doesn't scream Tampa was the better team to me. 

What I do agree is Tampa is the team that knows how to win. Toronto doesn't. It couldn't because it hasn't. Hockey can be very random. Toronto dominated OT vs. the Lightning after it shouldn't even have had to be in it, and lost when Tampa got one single opportunity and cashed it. I'm a big process over results guy, but results are all that ultimately matters. In process, I sincerely believe Toronto was the better team this season, but the results say Tampa was and everyone has to accept that regardless of bias. 

Tampa/Florida should be a fantastic series. I love Cooper and Cirelli but am sick of seeing Tampa win. I hope Florida unseats the champs but I don't think they will. 

BTW, the Leafs have tied the Hartford Whalers with the longest all-time series losing streak, at six. 

No way this team/org is remotely similar next season. 

The big debate in Leafs nation is to what extent changes need to be made. The two schools of thought seem to elements of truth in them. Yet, they are so polarizing. 

Do you stay the course believing something will be different? Or, do you make changes and how many? 

I do not believe in this age of sports you can just "stick with the plan". The plan has failed 3 straight series. I'd say 4 but Keefe has only failed 3x.  It gets murky because Lou and Babs are tied up into the series losing streak. The commonalities in the Dubas-era are Matthews, Marner, Reilly, Nylander, JT, Muzzin and Holl. 

Who stays? Who goes? I would say goodbye to:  Nylander, Muzzin and Holl. I would gladly move on from JT, but he has a NMC and is going nowhere. 

Does Keefe stay? Dependent on what happens with Dubas and or Shanahan, but wouldn't be opposed to a Torts or Trotz taking over the reigns. 

Does Shanahan stay? I'd move on from him. Shanaplan has failed. 

Does Dubas stay? I think that's a tough one. Of course, if Shanahan is out, then Dubas and Keefe's job security is thin ice. 

The Leafs are sadly always more interesting after a final game series loss than they are at any other point. Such intrigue now with what 2022-23 looks like. That is the fate of the loser. Always talking about next year when the current year isn't over. 

Would love to see legit poll numbers among Leafs nation on what they find acceptable. I think there's going to be a huge disconnect if the organization tries feeding us more of the same next season. It just has to be different in a tangible way to garner any form of belief. You can't keep getting people's hopes up year after year only to never deliver before they tune out. Change is the only remedy. No salesman is good enough to convince this base that more of the same is the right path forward even though it might be.