Add Tortorella to the list that rips Pens, Malkin & Crosby

[terp]

@aziz

Good idea using jersey sales as a proxy. It would be interesting to know how many are sold but I'll guess there is a big gap between 2 and 3 and a bigger gap between 1 and 2. Conjecture, but I still tend to think they see Crosby in particular as driving new fans.

Regarding the suspension, the interesting distinction is the premeditated-ness of it. It wasn't a momentary, blown call by an official. Top brass slept on it and, upon careful consideration, let him go. The apparent disegard for the rule and, as I recall, the lack of a coherent explanation dismayed me. I wouldn't call that "handing them a Cup" but once you blow up an organization's integrity, it becomes legitimate for people to wonder what else it is up to. I would add that I don't think there is any evidence that the league has ever taken elaborate measures to "engineer" a result.

Crosby has been considered a generational talent sine he was, what, 12? If the league would steer that guy to a team they wanted to save, I have some additional, serious reservations about the league's integrity. Something like that would necessarily have to be kept secret because it might constitute a criminal act (fraud). Waiving a suspension is different but small potatoes by comparison. It begs the question: what WON'T they resort to to accomplish their objectives?

It's been a little quiet around here so your "relentless" style is welcome.

[aziz]

Crosby has been considered a generational talent sine he was, what, 12? If the league would steer that guy to a team they wanted to save, I have some additional, serious reservations about the league's integrity. Something like that would necessarily have to be kept secret because it might constitute a criminal act (fraud). Waiving a suspension is different but small potatoes by comparison. It begs the question: what WON'T they resort to to accomplish their objectives?

hey, no arguement on that. if it was orchestrated, that's a nasty business.

as regards what WON'T they do, well, i think they'd do anything, so long as it was in the league's business interests and they figured they couldn't get caught beyond a reasonable doubt. the limiting principal there, the thing that makes me not freak out about it too much, is there would have to be a real business reason to do a thing. the league isn't going to screw with major stuff out of some individual's petty wants. saving a franchise, saving a wave of expansion teams, i can see them deciding those are big enough deals to mess around with things. a minor and temporary marketing bump for an already stable franchise and/or player, though? that's too small potatoes for anything really untoward to be going on.

Regarding the suspension, the interesting distinction is the premeditated-ness of it. It wasn't a momentary, blown call by an official. Top brass slept on it and, upon careful consideration, let him go.

also agreed. slept on it, and had a meeting where the main idea was, "damnit, we don't want malkin to sit this one out. if he does, detroit's gonna kill them and this thing will be over before the weekend. our TV partners have a lot of advertising dollars coming in assuming more games, and this is supposed to be our showcase event...we can't have one of these teams just whimper out. the rules say we don't HAVE to suspend him...we can let it go. we're gonna take some heat, but seriously, we can't have another 4-0, 4-1 series. those are just embarassing." like i said, imo it was about the game, not the series itself.

It's been a little quiet around here so your "relentless" style is welcome.

lol, well, i aim to please. or piss everyone the hell off.

Edited April 9, 2012 by aziz

[peter puck]

not so. the penguins were in real danger of going under before crosby. having a talent of that level be hand delivered to a struggling franchise was a particular kind of motivation for the league. a different situation than trying to hand pittsburgh a cup years later. the team was no longer in danger at that point, and had they lost against detroit would have been positioned to try again in the following years. no clock was ticking like it was for their very survival pre-crosby. there was nothing critical about that particular cup win. as opposed to tampa's, where there was an expansion system that was in dire need of validation, and no real guarantee that one of the southern expansions would be positioned to win a cup anytime soon if tampa failed to in that case. with all the southern expansions coming up short attendance-wise, a championship for one of them had the potential to make at least some of them solvent.

Its late and i very well could be missing your point.But is what your saying is that the league could have possibly fixed the lottery to save a struggling franchise.Knowingly allowed a missed call on an obvious goal (although the bolts still had to win that game and the next) all for the greater good of the game.But your not open to far more implausible ideas? Just the idea of "fixing" the lottery in itself leads me to believe that anything could now be possible. Like i said its late and i could be missing your point

[mojo1917]

@aziz

does the carolina hurricanes cup not count as success for a southern expansion team ? even though it came after the 'nings...

not trying to be a smart alec, just noting that you mentioned bettman's expansion... the 'canes were in carolina pre bettman as the whale's relocation and were a competitive and entertaining product.

and the vanbiesbrook led panthers played in a cup finals in the 90's they had that whole throwing rats on the ice thing going it was fun ? so the south wasn't totally barren as far as having some successful hockey clubs.

[B21]

And sunk the Titanic.

You may be onto something. The Pens' mascot is named "Iceberg".

[B21]

@terp

<< Regarding nitpicking, I'm sure you don't expect everyone on here to just go along quietly while you bash the Flyers on this site, on this thread. In this case, you begged to be "nitpicked" when you left that huge contradiction floating around out there waiting to be slapped down. Glad to oblige. >>

Here is my the exact quote...

The funny thing is...in all the BS coming from Lavi and Berube and Milbury and Torts...none of it was the result of Crosby whining. Lavi took issue with the Briere hit. Milbury's v a g i n a itched because Bylsma didn't go 10 rounds with Lavi. Torts had a problem with the Orpik hit. Berube, unable to form a thought of his own, requotes Milbury. And what do they all do? Blame Crosby for incidents that did not involve him. I'll call that spineless. I'll call that....gutless (to use Milbury's term). All four of them. Maybe a little gamesmanship on the part of Lavi and Berube...but still spineless.

If you want to take issue with my shot at Lavi instead of the points being debated, feel free. I'm not getting into a you said/I said pissing match because you are trying to take this in another direction. That paragraph is an accurate description of what Lavi, Berube, Milbury and Torts were upset about....with some liberties taken about Lavi's spine and Milbury's v a g i n a. Of course I expect a few shots here...most are actually kinda funny. Sorry if it upsets you that I fire back from time to time.

<< I've been meaning to mention for awhile that the hit on Briere was incidental; if it hadn't been that it would have been something else. They were sent out there to start trouble and that became very apparent when the Flyers took exception to (as Meltzer put it) a gratuitous albeit legal hit. The scrum featured a lot of immediate and non coincidental punches to Braydon Schenn's head in retaliation for Crosby's flop (interesting to wonder whether Asham was aware he was involved in an altercation because of one of Crosby's dives; maybe he doesn't care). In fact, given the rules about message sending late in a game, the whole thing worked out very well for the Pens. They came out smelling like a rose even though they were sent out to send a message, something that is supposed to result in a suspension. Briere gave them a gift. >>

Lavi was angry about the hit on Briere. Period. If he was really worried (and later upset) that the Pens sent out their 4th line against a scoring line to send a message then why didn't he make an immediate line change? The faceoff was at 1:15. The Flyers won it cleanly and had control of the puck in their defensive zone with the Pens offering little pressure. The Flyers' bench was on their defensive side of the ice. So call for line change. I mean if that is what Lavi was really worried about (and supposedly angry with) then why not change? I assume you follow hockey so you must know that teams often change fowards when they have control of the puck in their zone while facing little pressure from their opponent....kinda like the spot the Flyers were in there.

Also, if you are soooooo certain the Pens sent their 4th line guys out to send a message, why didn't the Pens start something right away? That's usually how it happens. When you are out to send a message you don't wait to see if the other team puts themselves in a position where you can make a big hit. You initiate.

Bottom line...Lavi is po'd one of his guys got hurt...and because of a clean hit no less. So he whines about the Pens 4th line being out there. If Briere's head is up, there is no hit to be made.

As for the scrum, first thing I see is Schenn slash a Pen in the knees on his way in. Then I seen Schenn with a cross check up high on Adams. I see Asham watch Schenn do that and engage Schenn. All part of a scrum. I can't help it if you are unable to see your own team's actions in that scrum.

Oh...Crosby flopped? Solid cross check from behind while he isn't looking and certainly not expecting it. That's such a biased statement I have trouble even bothering to defend it. More BS. And you expect to be taken seriously?

<< I always enjoy these "well your team would do it if it had had the chance" hypotheticals. Hard to argue with a hypothetical. >>

As if I never get that same response from Flyers fans.

<< Teams that send out players to send a message are taking a risk that can quickly backfire. The Pens seem to like this type of risk and that was apparent when they called up and dressed McIntyre, who has no business whatsoever in the NHL. The league office probably panicked when they saw that transaction. That was a classless and foolish move by the Pens and again, they were fortunate he didn't do anything crazy (his specialty). >>

Fortunate? Or maybe McIntyre was called up just in case your own team started something? It's not like the Pens were the team calling for blood here. It was the Flyers and their fans wanting to exact revenge. So the Pens bring up their enforcer just in case...and now that becomes in issue? Wow. Almost comical that is how you see that. Almost as bad as saying Crosby dove when Schenn hit him...not quite but almost.

[B21]

B21 when your in a Pens forum and you come across a poster or posters fussing about the Pens not getting penalty calls do you post stats and vids to show them that hey we do just as much as the other teams? Maybe that doesnt happen over there( i admit that i dont go to any Pens forums) but If so could you post a link? I would really like to read some of their responses! P.S. i agree with Doom88 - excellents posts without the pettiness

Sorry, Puck. Totally missed this one. I think you need to type "@B21" or it won't show up in notifications...and with all this fan mail to answer it's easy to miss a post.

To answer your question...no, not often needed actually. First, it's harder to find videos of your average run-of-the-mill penalties. YouTube seems to have primarily the only real egregious stuff. So if I am going back and forth with a Pens fan in a Pens forum about a call it's usually just what I say versus what they say...and we both saw the game. Plus, if it's a Pens forum, most fans are going to "agree" on most topics so there is not nearly the reason to post clips to prove a point. Take those clips of Zetterberg covering the puck...Pens fans will of course agree w/o evidence.

I'd post a link, too, but I'd feel kinda dirty...I don't mind Flyers fans in other forums but it's a moral issue. You gotta get their on your own but if you end up where I post from time to time....welcome. Plus, I don't post there as much. Not nearly as fun as here. I prefer a challenge.

[terp]

Sorry if it upsets you that I fire back from time to time.

Not at all. I like getting a rise out of you.

Lavi was angry about the hit on Briere.

Unless you are a mind reader, you are making that up.

Also, if you are soooooo certain the Pens sent their 4th line guys out to send a message, why didn't the Pens start something right away?

Because they didn't want to get suspended.

Solid cross check from behind while he isn't looking and certainly not expecting it.

Give me a break. Crosby is a lot of things but he's also strong on his skates. Cherry called him out on that too.

Or maybe McIntyre was called up just in case your own team started something?

Ya, I guess Englland and Asham needed some help. That call up was theatre on a par with pro wrestling.

[orange_crush]

Over the last week it's been Lavy, Cheif, Milbury and now Tortorella.

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nhl.com

I think Lavy and Torts are two of the best coaches in the game right now..

[B21]

@terp

B21, on Apr 09, 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Sorry if it upsets you that I fire back from time to time.

Not at all. I like getting a rise out of you.

Only Jesus rose recently. But again, keep trying.

B21, on Apr 09, 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Lavi was angry about the hit on Briere.

Unless you are a mind reader, you are making that up.

It's called common sense. If nothing happens, Lavi has nothing to complain about. Slightly hypothetical. Highly accurate.

B21, on Apr 09, 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Also, if you are soooooo certain the Pens sent their 4th line guys out to send a message, why didn't the Pens start something right away?

Because they didn't want to get suspended.

Now who is the mind reader? Last time I checked teams are not suspended for sending out their 4th lines. When that 4th line is not nice, they get suspended.

B21, on Apr 09, 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Solid cross check from behind while he isn't looking and certainly not expecting it.

Give me a break. Crosby is a lot of things but he's also strong on his skates. Cherry called him out on that too.

Oh. Well then if Don Cherry said so...

And he did not specifically call him out for...err...."diving" after the Schenn hit. It was a general critique.

B21, on Apr 09, 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Or maybe McIntyre was called up just in case your own team started something?

Ya, I guess Englland and Asham needed some help. That call up was theatre on a par with pro wrestling.

Fair...but if I am Bylsma, why take chances? MacIntyre = deterrant. All due respect to Asham and Engelland, they don't scare anyone.

Edited April 9, 2012 by B21

[sarsippius]

@B21

Honestly dude, you're kinda trolling Kuato-style at this point.

And as long as you keep doing this point by point misdirection and false conclusions, people are going to keep getting pissed off and firing back. Give it a rest. I like a lot of your posts outside of this defending the honor of the Pens bullsh*t, but this whole line of "conversation" is IMO asinine. Let it f**king go dude.

[B21]

@sarsippius

<< Honestly dude, you're kinda trolling Kuato-style at this point. >>

<< And as long as you keep doing this point by point misdirection and false conclusions, people are going to keep getting pissed off and firing back. Give it a rest. I like a lot of your posts outside of this defending the honor of the Pens bullsh*t, but this whole line of "conversation" is IMO asinine. Let it f**king go dude. >>

Trolling? Misdirection? Not at all. I do point by point so whoever I am responding to sees I am not trying to avoid anything. If not, I get the "you dodged that issue" treatment. With the exception of Teddy who has been all over here and Silly.com with his nonsense, it's been a pretty respectful back and forth. Not a whole lot of pissed off people...at least not in this thread. Not my fault when I respond to one person and get 7 in return. I try to respond to as much as I can. Eventually things will reach "agree to disagree"...a few have already. I let a lot go...there's 6-7 other threads killing the Pens and I've been nowhere near those. Sorry if one thread like this bothers you but at the end of the day, it's not all that much.

[TedZep]

By the way...I see you on a "Crosby admitted..." kick here and silly.com still. Admitted....you mean these comments?

No, not those, this: "I know that's probably the most hacks I've given out personally in a long time. So they seem to bring out the worst in me, too."

How many times did he go to the box for all those hacks he admitted to giving out?

I thought we were talking about this game right here, the catalyst for this thread and all the comments by others in the NHL. You and Aziz said the Flyers did it too, but still haven't come up with anything regarding the game in question. But you guys apparently meant that in the entire several seasons worth of games played you could pick out as many instances as I could in just the one game by the Pens. OK, that makes sense (now where is that sarcasm font?)

I'll give you the entire season: have any Penguins gotten kicked out of the game for getting punched in the face? It happened on Sunday to a Flyer in the game in question.

The Flyers are on notice for this upcoming series: hit a Penguin, get tossed from the game. Malign one of their stars, get a $20K fine. Has anyone heard what repercussions Don Cherry faces?

[B21]

@TedZep

<< How many times did he go to the box for all those hacks he admitted to giving out? >>

Same number of times the Flyers were sent to the box for all the hacks they gave out. You must of watched a different game. I saw lots of extra hacks given out by both teams. If you didn't you are blind. Only one slash was called that entire game.

<< I thought we were talking about this game right here, the catalyst for this thread and all the comments by others in the NHL. You and Aziz said the Flyers did it too, but still haven't come up with anything regarding the game in question. But you guys apparently meant that in the entire several seasons worth of games played you could pick out as many instances as I could in just the one game by the Pens. OK, that makes sense (now where is that sarcasm font?) >>

How convenient...you want ONE game because you feel that's a game that makes your case. I took the game I watched most recently and gave you three examples of what you were asking for from the first ten minutes including a Flyer punching a Pen (your obsession) and getting away with it. If you want to continue to be narrow minded and drill down to a single game in which you feel the Pens got away with several whacks then have at it. All it takes is one game to make your case now? Sounds to me like your case gets weaker by the day. This thread is FILLED with examples of things that other teams got away with versus the Pens or obvious calls that did not go the Pens way. Boo hoo...not in the single solitary game you are referring to.

You can see the video I posted...Rinaldo clocks Kennedy...blindside to the head...and gets nothing for it. Blatant and obvious. Official starting right at it. So answer for that. Shelley elbowed Engelland in the head earlier in the period. No call. Answer for that.

Please explain how, if the Flyers are "on notice" based on that last game, those two hits go unpenalized and unpunished. Don't skirt around it. You wants specifics, you got 'em. You have cried for suspensions when the exact same things happened to Flyers. So again...explain. Don't wait for the translation.

[pilldoc]

this thread is like the energizer rabbit...it keeps going and going and going.....

[peter puck]

this thread is like the energizer rabbit...it keeps going and going and going.....

Is it wabbit season yet?

[doom88]

If the series is nearly as competitive and intense as this thread, we're all in for a treat.

[sarsippius]

Is it wabbit season yet?

Duck Penguin season, FIRE!

[pilldoc]

Duck Penguin season, FIRE!

no its Elmer Fudd, Crosby season FIRE! (sorry B21..I had to do it...no offense! )

ssh, ssh, Be vewy, vewy quite the Flwyers are hunting Penqwins..heh heh

I'm sorry this is just plain wrong ...but I had to do it!

Edited April 10, 2012 by pilldoc

[sarsippius]

Doc that vid was some funny ****!

Bugs Bunny quotes and video game penguinicide, this thread is either now dead or moving in a much better direction

[pilldoc]

@sarsippius

lol..glad you like it! I think the topic has been beaten to death. time for the funeral!

[B21]

no its Elmer Fudd, Crosby season FIRE! (sorry B21..I had to do it...no offense! )

ssh, ssh, Be vewy, vewy quite the Flwyers are hunting Penqwins..heh heh

I'm sorry this is just plain wrong ...but I had to do it!

It's all good. No way in h e l l I get offended at something that funny.

[aziz]

so the south wasn't totally barren as far as having some successful hockey clubs.

success (but no cup) on the ice is a different thing that success at the gates...and things weren't great for those southern teams at the time. well, still aren't. the cup wins by tampa and carolina probably staved off disaster by a few years. or, at least, could reasonably have been expected to.

[Merrick]

Add Larry Brooks to the list, too. Apologies if this has already been posted...

Don’t rip Penguins, or else

As If there had been any previous doubt, this week’s events demonstrated once and for all the Penguins are the NHL’s version of Made Men, not only untouchable but protected by the authorities against insult.

The league responded to John Tortorella’s withering verbal attack on the Pittsburgh organization, Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin as if the Rangers coach had bellied up to the bar and told Mario Lemieux to go home and get his shine box.

The NHL whacked Tortorella in the pocketbook is what they did, because if there’s one thing the league can’t allow, it’s calling attention to the Most Favored Nation status granted the Penguins and their owner.

The irony is that’s exactly what the league accomplished by overreacting to Tortorella’s colorful verbiage with its $20,000 fine approximately 14 months after the NHL had allowed Lemieux to skate away free of charge after the owner issued a statement on his team’s website in which he condemned the league for its response to brawls between the Islanders and the Penguins at the Coliseum.

Lemieux threatened to walk away from the NHL the way he once threatened to take his team to Kansas City. He said the league had failed. The league said it would take no action against the owner.

The “arrogance” of the Pittsburgh ownership to which Tortorella referred is a sense of entitlement bestowed upon it by a league that appears more invested in protecting the Penguins than opponents who might be injured as a result of reckless plays that somehow always are deemed accidental or not worthy of NHL sanction.

On its own, the Brooks Orpik knee-on-knee hit delivered to Derek Stepan in the final minutes of Thursday’s game in Pittsburgh probably was not worthy of a suspension.

The fact is, however, it was not a stand-alone incident. Orpik initiated a similar, perhaps even more malicious, knee-on-knee hit against Brad Richards in the neutral zone midway through the first period of a game at the Garden on Nov. 29, a play in which neither a penalty was called nor supplemental discipline issued.

Malkin is notorious for his slew-footing escapades on which he never is cited, all the way back to the 2008 playoffs against the Rangers. Matt Cooke got away with a leg sweep on Richards in the second period of a game at the Garden on Jan. 19. Aaron Asham injured the Bruins’ Johnny Boychuk leg-on-leg April 3, two days after another one of those “accidental” collisions against Philadelphia that just happen to follow the Penguins from city to city.

Pierre McGuire, meanwhile, saw nothing.

Better for the NBC’s between-the-glass future employment prospects in either the broadcast industry or in an NHL front office to remain silent rather than cast a critical glance at the Penguins, much less record anything other than an audio love letter their way.

It always has been inexplicable NBC would have wanted Mike Milbury, someone whose idea of analysis is invariably to dive straight to the bottom and engage in character assassination and attack on an individual’s manhood, as its representative.

But the network never one time flinched until this week, when Milbury had the audacity to defame Crosby, Malkin and the Penguins the way he has built a TV career defaming Jaromir Jagr, Alex Ovechkin, Daniel and Henrik Sedin ... uh, maybe there’s a pattern?

The network, and by extension, the league, was fine with years of ridicule and personal attack over its own airwaves, but when Milbury dared to similarly bottom-feed on the Penguins and Crosby in a radio interview, no less, whoa boy, enough was enough.

An apology was coerced and Milbury conveniently will not be among the participants in tomorrow’s joint network and league conference call (“Uh, Mike, did you mean it when you called Crosby a ‘punk’ before you recanted?”) designed to publicize the coverage of the playoffs.

The 11th Commandment: “Thy shy not speak ill of the Favorite Son.”

Everyone is on notice from the league. The problem for the league though, is everyone has noticed the double standard as applied to the Penguins by a league that was silent when Lemieux, coolly detached two days after an event, attacked the operation but reached into Tortorella’s pocket for $20,000 when the coach, white hot 20 minutes after an incident, did the same.

As far as the smell test goes, the league has passed.

It smells, all right.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/don_rip_pens_or_else_5hzTZmHXH99XRT5dVC4VZK

[aziz]

@Merrick

ok, but larry brooks. not exactly what you would call a league or team official.