Moving Van at Pronger's House?

[radoran]

Interesting as I did not know that. Though it does not seem that detrimental. I scanned both Roster / Non-Roster players and Walker was the only one I could see that that provision would apply to.

Players like Gustaffsson, Rinaldo, Wellwood are included prorated on their NHL salary based on number of games played last season and Jake, Harry Z, Sestito and Bordon will be applied as their RFA qualifiers are issued.

It's not a major issue - aside from Waker's $1.7M - but the Flyers need to answer the Pronger Question. having $12M vs. $7M is a big difference...

Also, too, there will likely be some space opening up as the new CBA (shold it be ratified) deals with the Bonus Issue.

[doom88]

Man, I'd love to watch Doan with G for a year or two.

[Vanflyer]

Players like Gustaffsson, Rinaldo, Wellwood are included prorated on their NHL salary based on number of games played last season and Jake, Harry Z, Sestito and Bordon will be applied as their RFA qualifiers are issued.

How does that work?? How can they forecast based on prior year and try to apply it? For every game that Gus / Rinaldo / Wellwood played, another FLYER roster player did not play- and usually due to injury and not benching / pressbox. I would love to see the formula for calculating that ratio.

On the RFA side, I sort of get that but still that feels like trying to read tea leaves. How do they know who is going to get a two-way vs. one way??

[radoran]

How does that work?? How can they forecast based on prior year and try to apply it? For every game that Gus / Rinaldo / Wellwood played, another FLYER roster player did not play- and usually due to injury and not benching / pressbox. I would love to see the formula for calculating that ratio.

On the RFA side, I sort of get that but still that feels like trying to read tea leaves. How do they know who is going to get a two-way vs. one way??

It's just the "off-season" cap. It's why they can go 10% above the cap in the off-season (which is where this conversation started). LTIR doesn't apply, either, so Pronger's $4.9M is applied to the "off-season" cap regardless.

At the start of the regular season, they go back to the "regular" cap ($70.3M) with Pronger (likely) gong onto LTIR.

So, they have a total salary rightnow of $61.2M (capgeek). This includes Wellwood and Rinaldo at full (but at $1.12M it's not much different). They are listed at $9M in cap space and $3.5M in bonuses (which are applied to the cap rightnow, but may be deferred under the new CBA - neither Bob nor Schenn (the two biggest bonuses) are likely to hit their bonus levels). Potentially $12.5M in cap space.

Potentially, again if you include Pronger on LTIR, they have something near $17.4M in potential space.

They can go over the cap $7.03M in the offseason, so the off-season cap is $77.33M. This number needs to include Matt Walker and a prorated number for Gustaffsson, Manning, etc. based on the number of games they played last season on their NHL salary (again, not much, but needs to be considered probably around $1M or so).

So, $74.5M cap space in the off-season sound good? I pretty much just write off the difference between the off-season and regular season cap as "Pronger" and everything seems to wash out.

The "off-season" number will also include Voracek and Sestito/Harry Z/Bourdon (for example) when they are signed, and their initial hit IIRC will be based on whether they sign a two- or one-way deal (Z/Bourdon).

IF Pronger is "done" - and he will need to continue to prove he is "done" on a regular basis - the Flyers have some nice room to maneuver.

If not, signing Jagr and Carle could tie up a lot of the $12.5M they *potentially* have pending the bonus decision and IMO most of the $9M they have on hand rightnow.

[Vanflyer]

It's just the "off-season" cap. It's why they can go 10% above the cap in the off-season (which is where this conversation started). LTIR doesn't apply, either, so Pronger's $4.9M is applied to the "off-season" cap regardless.

Totally get that. So were are good there (thus the 9M INCLUDES Prongers salary).

They are listed at $9M in cap space and $3.5M in bonuses (which are applied to the cap rightnow, but may be deferred under the new CBA - neither Bob nor Schenn (the two biggest bonuses) are likely to hit their bonus levels). Potentially $12.5M in cap space.

Best to not speculate and stay with current. So we are at 9M cap space (including bonuses and Pronger).

Potentially, again if you include Pronger on LTIR, they have something near $17.4M in potential space.

I think everyone knows that Pronger is done. This feels worse than Gagne, worse than Lindros, and much worse than Primeau- based on what I have read.

They can go over the cap $7.03M in the offseason, so the off-season cap is $77.33M. This number needs to include Matt Walker and a prorated number for Gustaffsson, Manning, etc. based on the number of games they played last season on their NHL salary (again, not much, but needs to be considered probably around $1M or so).

This is the part that is fuzzy for me. So they guesstamate the cap dollars of call-ups to replace injured players? Is that how we sum this up??

So, $74.5M cap space in the off-season sound good? I pretty much just write off the difference between the off-season and regular season cap as "Pronger" and everything seems to wash out.

I would stick with the 70, but if you want to include the net of the oneways and pronger, fine. 74.5m it is. That is a net of 13.5m for off-season movement.

IF Pronger is "done" - and he will need to continue to prove he is "done" on a regular basis - the Flyers have some nice room to maneuver.

You find me a doctor that can prove a player does not have post-concussion syndrome and I will pay give you the titles to my trailer, pinto, donkey and mule.

[aziz]

This is the part that is fuzzy for me. So they guesstamate the cap dollars of call-ups to replace injured players? Is that how we sum this up??

kind of, but not a guesstimate. players on 2-way deals count against the offseason cap by a prorated amount equal to the number of days they spent on an NHL roster the season prior. so, a guy who spent the entire season in the minors wouldn't count at all. a guy who spent the entire season in the NHL would count 100%. half the season in the NHL would be 50%. and so on. also, they actually count the number of days, not number of games. last season was 185 days long.

for example, gustafsson was on the roster for 124 days, or 67% of the season, so his cap hit for the offseason will be 67% of it's $900k total, $603k.

nhlnumbers.com has the total number of days each guy was on the roster, just select the team and then on the 2011/12 season link at the top of the roster, and then look at the "total days" column. capgeek probably has it listed somewhere, too.

[Vanflyer]

a guy who spent the entire season in the NHL would count 100%. half the season in the NHL would be 50%. and so on. also, they actually count the number of days, not number of games. last season was 185 days long.

I get all that, but hey are projecting that those players will replicate their games at the NHL level, despite management off-season moves to replace those "games". That is what is perplexing to me. I get the projection math part, but it assumes allot of things.

[aziz]

@Vanflyer

i guess they needed some mechanism to represent players with 2-way deals that could be expected to contribute to the roster, and that's how they chose to do it. otherwise, you'd just assign couturier, schenn, bob, and all the others to the phantoms the day after you were eliminated and magically have $10mil in cap space temporarily appear.

i'd like to see the cap only be in effect during the playing season, really, but there it is.

[canoli]

i'd like to see the cap only be in effect during the playing season, really, but there it is.

I don't get why it's not. Who cares what the summer's cap is, or how much a team is over or under it? Why is that even a concern to the NHL (or the NHLPA)?

there has to be some good reason but I have no brain for this kind of discussion. I can't even think of a halfway plausible reason the cap should exist during the off-season.

[doom88]

It keeps the Rangers from signing everyone, burying the contracts in the A, and winning the Calder Cup.

[radoran]

I can't explain large portions of the CBA.

And, apparently, neither can most of the GMs...

[aziz]

I don't get why it's not. Who cares what the summer's cap is, or how much a team is over or under it? Why is that even a concern to the NHL (or the NHLPA)?

there has to be some good reason but I have no brain for this kind of discussion. I can't even think of a halfway plausible reason the cap should exist during the off-season.

the only thing i can think of is to save GMs from themselves. i mean, that's the point of the entire cap concept, anyway, so i imagine this is just another facet of it. if the logic on the cap in general was, "we, the GMs, can't help but hand out more and more inflated contracts, thereby inflating player salaries at an unsustainable rate, so we have to have some device that keeps us from going too far," then "we, the GMs, can't help but ignore anything resembling long term concequences, even over a span as short as the offseason; if allowed, we will hand out more and more inflated contracts during the three months between seaons with no plan for cap compliance the next fall, so we have to have some device that keeps us from going too far," makes some sense.

[radoran]

the only thing i can think of is to save GMs from themselves. i mean, that's the point of the entire cap concept, anyway, so i imagine this is just another facet of it. if the logic on the cap in general was, "we, the GMs, can't help but hand out more and more inflated contracts, thereby inflating player salaries at an unsustainable rate, so we have to have some device that keeps us from going too far," then "we, the GMs, can't help but ignore anything resembling long term concequences, even over a span as short as the offseason; if allowed, we will hand out more and more inflated contracts during the three months between seaons with no plan for cap compliance the next fall, so we have to have some device that keeps us from going too far," makes some sense.

I think it is also to avoid having too many Matt Walkers around the league - from both the team and player union perspective.

The one-way deals that still count in the offseason still count in the offseason (even if the 10% exemption is getting more and more inflated).

[canoli]

interesting...I guess that kind of extends the only reason I ever knew for the cap, ie "creating parity."

Maybe a welcome (?) byproduct of it is reigning in some of the more out-of-control GMs who spent big $$ every year, pricing out smaller market GMs, effectively hording the best players. It's pretty obvious the NHL has changed in a big way over the last 8 years since the cap started.

I suppose it doesn't matter if there's an off-season cap or not, once the season begins every team has to be cap-compliant. There's nothing to gain or lose by removing the summer cap.

[radoran]

interesting...I guess that kind of extends the only reason I ever knew for the cap, ie "creating parity."

Maybe a welcome (?) byproduct of it is reigning in some of the more out-of-control GMs who spent big $$ every year, pricing out smaller market GMs, effectively hording the best players. It's pretty obvious the NHL has changed in a big way over the last 8 years since the cap started.

I suppose it doesn't matter if there's an off-season cap or not, once the season begins every team has to be cap-compliant. There's nothing to gain or lose by removing the summer cap.

Well, there's something to be lost if you're a veteran at 29 signing a four year deal who gets dealt to a different team and buried in the AHL because the GM still can't manage the cap correctly.

[canoli]

you mean Walker? Well he should've never been on an NHL roster to begin with. lol. Walker (for the Flyers) turned out to be an-even-worse Rathje...and that's saying something!

[radoran]

you mean Walker? Well he should've never been on an NHL roster to begin with. lol. Walker (for the Flyers) turned out to be an-even-worse Rathje...and that's saying something!

That's more than a little harsh. Walker (who, in fact, played Junior - true story), played in the AHL and pretty much fought kicked and scratched his way into the lineup in St. Louis, played 65 games and 17 in the playoffs with the Blackhawks and was signed by a real, honest-to-God NHL GM to a four-year, $1.7M per contract as an FA.

He was then a highly touted (yes, indeed he was ("This was a move to solidify our defense,” general manager Paul Holmgren said. “Matt Walker is a right shot defenseman that we like. He brings size, grit and toughness to our backend.")) part of the Simon Gagne trade. Being, in fact, the only tangible asset gained in the trade. He was then consigned to the AHL because of the honest-to-God NHL GM who had cap-strapped the team into dealing it's star, original draft pick, first rounder (who played Junior) left winger for a mid-level defenseman and a fourth round draft pick and was then still forced to consign that player to the AHL, costing his team $1.7M in unrealized debt and the team $1.7M in off-season cap space.

Of course that was an honest-to-God NHL GM who decided to trade the player for a guy who "shouldn't even be on an NHL roster to begin with" and still had THREE MORE SEASONS ON HIS ONE-WAY DEAL while calling the acquisition of a guy who "shouldn't even be on an NHL roster to begin with" a "move to solidify our defense".

And, of course, you have full confidence in Homer? (not to put words in your mouth )

But I digest...

Rathje at least got put into the LTIR category. His salary - with a lower cap - was more than TWICE Walker's.

And the real point is that the NHLPA has an interest in preventing what happened to players like Walker (injury notwithstanding) from happening.

[sarsippius]

Take it for what it's worth, and before you say it, I hate facebook too.....

My wife is friends with a local auctioneer, she said this person just posted a status update that they were in Haddonfield picking up items from Chris Pronger's house. So if true it would lend credence to the thought that Chris is moving out of the area.....or he spent all his money on beer and needs to auction a few sticks, just putting it out there, we all know he's done it's just a matter of cap games now

[canoli]

That's more than a little harsh. Walker (who, in fact, played Junior - true story), played in the AHL and pretty much fought kicked and scratched his way into the lineup in St. Louis, played 65 games and 17 in the playoffs with the Blackhawks and was signed by a real, honest-to-God NHL GM to a four-year, $1.7M per contract as an FA.

He was then a highly touted (yes, indeed he was ("This was a move to solidify our defense,” general manager Paul Holmgren said. “Matt Walker is a right shot defenseman that we like. He brings size, grit and toughness to our backend.")) part of the Simon Gagne trade. Being, in fact, the only tangible asset gained in the trade. He was then consigned to the AHL because of the honest-to-God NHL GM who had cap-strapped the team into dealing it's star, original draft pick, first rounder (who played Junior) left winger for a mid-level defenseman and a fourth round draft pick and was then still forced to consign that player to the AHL, costing his team $1.7M in unrealized debt and the team $1.7M in off-season cap space.

Of course that was an honest-to-God NHL GM who decided to trade the player for a guy who "shouldn't even be on an NHL roster to begin with" and still had THREE MORE SEASONS ON HIS ONE-WAY DEAL while calling the acquisition of a guy who "shouldn't even be on an NHL roster to begin with" a "move to solidify our defense".

And, of course, you have full confidence in Homer? (not to put words in your mouth )

But I digest...

Rathje at least got put into the LTIR category. His salary - with a lower cap - was more than TWICE Walker's.

And the real point is that the NHLPA has an interest in preventing what happened to players like Walker (injury notwithstanding) from happening.

Sorry Rad but you're kinda all over the place on that response. I can't tell which parts are tongue-in-cheek sarcasm and which are you speaking in Homer's voice - or some other GM. I tried man, I really did, to follow the flow of it...

Anyway, suffice it to say I never liked Matt Walker. You're right though, I was extra-harsh and I should not have been. Walker is okay as a depth D-man I guess. I never heard of him before his year in Tampa but I watched them plenty that year (mostly for Stamkos - also St Louis who I always really liked). I saw him as a stiff who was hurting an already shaky TB D.

Anyway when I learned we were getting him I couldn't believe it. I couldn't understand how Homer could get rooked so badly. And for Gagne. Okay not exactly "for" Gagne but you know what I mean. We got saddled with Walker, and saddled is the right word. Walker is not a great skater, not terribly bright on the ice, he's not a tremendous or especially effective hitter... so Homer's "shore up the D" was, imho, pure PR talk and nothing but PR.

It was just an ugly (and unnecessary) trade imho; it ranks right up there with the "bold" Carcillo acquisition ("bold" as in "stupid" - lol). It can't touch the lunacy of the Bryzgalov deal of course, nothing does (and god willing nothing ever will again) but for Flyers' fans there was nothing to like about the Walker-Gagne-Salary Dump deal....absolutely nothing.

Edited June 13, 2012 by canoli

[radoran]

Whether or not Walker can play or can't play, the NHLPA has an interest in not having NHL-caliber players (as Walker was signed to a 4-year deal as a FA by a NHL General Manager and then traded for by another I'll speculate that he could be considered by the NHLPA "NHL-caliber") stuck in the AHL because the GM can't manage his cap correctly.

Allowing GMs to sign whoever they want for whatever they want during the offseason is counterproductive to that interest.

And, yes, in some cases you need to save players from themselves.

[canoli]

Ah, thank you, you brought it back around to the original (?) point and made your case. Well done! I understand now what you're saying and it makes sense. I suppose the summer cap is "much ado about nothing" anyway. I was foolish for questioning it: even if it was abolished today teams would still need to be cap-compliant once the season begins.

[Spinorama]

but for Flyers' fans there was nothing to like about the Walker-Gagne-Salary Dump deal....absolutely nothing.

I forget and don't fee like looking it up so if you know off the top of your head, perhaps you can help me remember who the Flyers needed to make space for again?

I remember the move and realizing that it sucked but understood it because it was for cap reasons but I just can't seem to remember who they were making space for

[Bertmega]

@Spinorama

I think it was to add Meszaros' salary and get get some relief to ink O'Donnell and Zherdev.

[Spinorama]

@Bertmega

ah yes, thanks! haha, zherdev

[doom88]

@Spinorama

I think it was to add Meszaros' salary and get get some relief to ink O'Donnell and Zherdev.

Yes to all and Bob.

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams/PHI?year=2011