Suspension for Gryba?

[radoran]

And now we have Abdelkater getting the same suspension as Gryba.

If Gryba's hit was a two game suspension, Abdelkater should have been Downie'd.

[ruxpin]

I'm gonna don my helmet and join @hf101 on the firing line for this one. Gryba may not have meant to do it, but in the videos I'm seeing I think Gryba hits Eller in the chin with his shoulder initially and follows through the chest. As HF points out Eller's head snaps back before any other shockwave goes through his torso. He is clearly unconscious as he's falling, and I disagree with the idea that the chest was hit THEN his head hit the shoulder pad. The head whipping back is the very first sign of any contact. I don't think it was done with malice but full on reckless.

I'm not sure I've ever seen you be wrong before.

[ruxpin]

I am not asking because I am generally a smart ass

That's simply coincidental.

[ruxpin]

@flyerrod

I doubt Polaris is viewing any different video than the rest of us. Re-watch the Shanny video. While watching it try to answer the following two questions. As I mentioned above the 54 sec mark in the overhead video is the most telling, imo. Yeah, it's telling because there's no head contact there.

1. How does Eller get knocked unconscious, because he is clearly out prior to hitting the ice? I'm still going to insist it was from his head hitting the hard plastic shoulder pad on Gryba's back shoulder blade after the initial hit. That and the violence of the hit itself. He's just done turning his head forward right before he's being hit. It's arguable that he's not out but is significantly disoriented from the violence of the hit and not expecting it (it's very hard to imagine how it's possible he wasn't expecting it).

2. What caused Eller's head to so sharply snap back? Not only don't I see the head hit, I actually don't see the sharp snap back and I've watched it over and over again from several angles and at varying speeds. My only other guess was it was a lone gunman in a book depository. Because he wasn't hit in the head initially.

[ruxpin]

@Polaris922

@hf101

I have to agree with Kerry Fraser and the rest of the TSN panel on this one. From either view they show, the principal contact is shoulder/body to chest with his head whiplashing into Gryba's shoulder.

Yes, I'm sorry but at 0:39 there is already body contact and the head has hit nothing yet. I also just watched the Shanahan video again and still see no initial head contact nor do I see this sharp head snap I'm being told is there.

[ruxpin]

And I'm going to say again that it's disgusting that Abdelkater gets the same as this hit. The intent from Abdelkater is clear. Abdelkater's was NOT a hockey play and Gryba's was textbook what you're supposed to do and clearly a hockey play. Shanahan's version of justice is simply disgusting and criminally incompetent.

[ruxpin]

@flyerrod

The same ones posted here. I DO see the head as at least simultaneous as the initial point if impact. His shoulder clearly is above Eller's chest height. Gryba forearm may hit the chest, or follow through hits the chest, but I have damn good eyes and I see the shoulder pad hit the face quite clearly.

I am certain I see someone on the Grassy Knoll. No, not the tooth fairy; the guy standing next to him.

[ruxpin]

@hf101

You know I'm not above giving you a hard time just for the sake of giving you a hard time. But this really is bothering me because I *know* YOU're not nuts, and I'm on new medication that is otherwise working well. But I honestly don't see anything you're talking about so...anyway, I'm really not just trying to be obstinate.

[Polaris922]

I'm gonna go ahead an speculate that his shoulder is also above his chest height. He's also got two inches on Eller. And Eller is leaning over.

I'll go to another Lindros hit - Andreas Dackle. The much smaller Dackle cringed in the corner and got hammered by the larger Lindros. Dackle keep his composure and take the hit solid, he doesn't put his head into Lindros' shoulder.

I'm willing to listen to a legitimate description of what was so egregious about this hit.

I still haven't heard it.

Head contact is the issue. As primary contact point. That's the issue. That's the ONLY issue. Honestly if players would just bend their knees and explode into the check instead of staying high or in some cases (not this one) leaping into the hit, most of these hits wouldn't need reviewed.

Even in Fraser's review of the play showing the "hip" contact.. the head is clearly on the shoulder pad as he's pointing it out.

I think the issue is the rule itself. BY the rule you ARE allowed to hit in the head as long as you're also hitting their body at the same time. I didn't read it to say as much. I thought if the head was hit in the initial contact, not as part of the follow through, it was a penalty regardless. Reading the rule and hearing them explain it... it doesn't work that way. So because the body is hit at the same time the shoulder drives through Eller's face, it's a legal hit. I don't like it that the head can be hit that way, but the rule says it can. I concede the point. Sorry HF!

Edited May 6, 2013 by Polaris922

[radoran]

I think the issue is the rule itself. BY the rule you ARE allowed to hit in the head as long as you're also hitting their body at the same time. I didn't read it to say as much. I thought if the head was hit in the initial contact, not as part of the follow through, it was a penalty regardless. Reading the rule and hearing them explain it... it doesn't work that way. So because the body is hit at the same time the shoulder drives through Eller's face, it's a legal hit. I don't like it that the head can be hit that way, but the rule says it can. I concede the point. Sorry HF!

Legal hit. Two game suspension.

Illegal hit, leaving the skates, jumping into the player's head? Two game suspension.

It's a joke, and not a good one.

And I'm going to say again that it's disgusting that Abdelkater gets the same as this hit. The intent from Abdelkater is clear. Abdelkater's was NOT a hockey play and Gryba's was textbook what you're supposed to do and clearly a hockey play. Shanahan's version of justice is simply disgusting and criminally incompetent.

Yeah. This.

[MaineFlyFan]

This is a good debate we have going here.....However,

I'm Not sure how a couple of you are seeing this hit SO different than a LONG TIME well respected veteran ref (frazier) and a panel of hockey experts (TSN)...as well as many on this board.....and everyone I've personally talked to about the hit. No Interference, head not the point of contact, didn't leave feet, etc etc etc....

Not that there is anything worng with seeing things differently....I just think your in the minority on this issue and if we start suspending players for hits like this the leauge is certainly on its way OUT.

The fact that abdelkater got the same suspension as Gryba's show's the leauge's complete and total FAILURE at managing this "issue" of "head shots" injuries, whatever..

[TedZep]

The alleged "snap of the head" may have been Eller attempting to protect himself at the last second, or may have been a secondary result of the impact to his body. There is no direct video evidence of direct contact to any parts north of his neck, despite the fantasy take of Shanahan and others claiming they saw something that just wasn't there.

There was no interference, Eller had the puck prior to contact, so no penalty should have been called either. The referee maybe should have given a misconduct to the ice surface, that would have made the most sense of all this nonsense.

[Polaris922]

I think it's quite clear there is head contact. I honestly don't know where you guys are turning your eyes when that happens right at the initation of the hit. HOWEVER.. as I said in my post... I have a better understanding of the rule now, and since the rest of the body is being hit at the same time, by the rule, it is NOT illegal. That's why I changed my stance. I still see the head impact... just understand now that the rule allows for it as long as the body contact is simultaneous.

[hf101]

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

Source

The rule doesn't state that if the body is hit at the same time as the head that that the hit is deemed legal.

There are other factors. Gyrba doesn't line up Eller straight on. Eller is unable to protect himself and not aware of the impending hit.

43.1 Checking from Behind – A check from behind is a check delivered on a player who is not aware of the impending hit, therefore unable to protect or defend himself, and contact is made on the back part of the body. When a player intentionally turns his body to create contact with his back, no penalty shall be assessed.

[radoran]

I think it's quite clear there is head contact. I honestly don't know where you guys are turning your eyes when that happens right at the initation of the hit.

As I've said, there is a difference between there "being head contact" and the head as the "primary source of contact."

The head is clearly not the "primary source of contact" - despite what Shanahan says. The head was not "targeted". There was - by the League's own statement - no "intent to injure."

This hit is the defintion of a hockey play.

[Polaris922]

As I've said, there is a difference between there "being head contact" and the head as the "primary source of contact."

The head is clearly not the "primary source of contact" - despite what Shanahan says. The head was not "targeted". There was - by the League's own statement - no "intent to injure."

This hit is the defintion of a hockey play.

My point is directed at those who are saying they don't see any head contact until a whiplash effect. Not you Rad!

[ruxpin]

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

This is irritating me. First, I'll let Polaris explain the difference between the word "and" and the word "or" in legal speak. The rule above--which I'll explain in a moment isn't relevant to the hit anyway--states "where the head is targeted AND the principal point of contact is not permitted. The word is AND. The dumb as disciplinarian states clearly that they do not see any malicious intent and he did not launch himself into the head. Excuse me, but what, then, is the definition of targeted? The rule above clearly states principal point AND targeted. Even if one sees imaginary contact to the head as the principal point of contact, it is clearly NOT targeted and the above rule does not apply. It clearly does not say or.

But in response to @Polaris922's post, I re-watched the video from Shanahan. At the 0.53 mark is the initial contact shown from the higher end zone camera. The hip is into body and there is CLEARLY space between Eller's head and anything on Gryba's body. Forward from there and the head goes further away from Gryba and NEVER makes contact. There simply is not any head contact there...negating the second part requiring principal point of contact. I'm sorry, but neither criteria for this rule apply. Even if I allow for the phantom principal contact thing, by Shanahan's own language on the video he clearly negates any sound or sane interpretation of targeted.

43.1 Checking from Behind – A check from behind is a check delivered on a player who is not aware of the impending hit, therefore unable to protect or defend himself, and contact is made on the back part of the body. When a player intentionally turns his body to create contact with his back, no penalty shall be assessed.

With all due respect, I'm at a loss as to why you are hell bent on posting rules that have absolutely nothing to do with this case. I'm waiting for you to post the offsides rule. Here we have that pesky little AND word again. It is not OR. Are you insinuating that Eller is built differently from the rest of human kind and his pelvis is on his back? He is hit fully in the front. There's nothing remotely about his "back part of the body" involved in this play.

The voice over by Shanahan simply doesn't match the video. "Doesn't make enough of a full body check." ALL HE HITS IS THE DAMN BODY. It was a textbook check and a beautiful hockey play that had a bad result. I really don't get this at all.

To @Polaris922 I'm not turning my head..or even snapping it. There just simply isn't head contact prior to his entire body being hit. And from the higher end zone shot it doesn't look like there is ANY head contact at all.

[Polaris922]

As I already said... I agree he hits the body simultaneously. I see contact with the face on shoulder. The video I am seeing shows his head appear to hit the shoulder and snap back. It's NOT a penalty because that is permitted as long as there is body contact besides the head, which there clearly is. The body is primary point of contact, the head to shoulder is collateral damage. Feel free to link the video you are watching to me. I am looking at the videos Shanahan used as I figured those were the angles his decision were based on. They're distant, but I see jersey against face. And yes I have my eyes checked every other year to maintain my flight medical status. LOL

I am agreeing Shanahan is wrong. I did that days ago!. LOL

[ruxpin]

As I already said... I agree he hits the body simultaneously. I see contact with the face on shoulder. The video I am seeing shows his head appear to hit the shoulder and snap back. It's NOT a penalty because that is permitted as long as there is body contact besides the head, which there clearly is. The body is primary point of contact, the head to shoulder is collateral damage. Feel free to link the video you are watching to me. I am looking at the videos Shanahan used as I figured those were the angles his decision were based on. They're distant, but I see jersey against face. And yes I have my eyes checked every other year to maintain my flight medical status. LOL

I am agreeing Shanahan is wrong. I did that days ago!. LOL

Oh, I know you are agreeing on that part and have been. That makes me happy. Really. Honestly. Really.

I honestly don't see the head hit, but I'm perfectly happy to take your conclusion none-the-less.

[hf101]

@ruxpin

1. I posted the second rule checking from behind because that rule takes the place of the blindside hit rule.. As Shanny states Gryba is coming at Eller at an angle that doesn't allow Eller to protect himself. Eller was looking in the direction of the pass from Diaz. Gryba is skating to him at an angle behind him ......He isn't lined up square. That I believe is one factor in determining that the hit itself not completely legal. But it is not the reason for this suspension it is a secondary consideration.

2. Now Look carefully at the physics and angles to which Gryba falls. If he was hit though the body as many say ....through the hip and chest he would have been pushed straight backwards not spun around like a top. The only way he could spin around like Eller did is due to significant contact and force to the head, neck, and shoulder area in an upwards fashion. Now if you want to say Gryba makes contact first with the shoulder, ....but because Eller's head pops back so quickly it had to have been hit what looks to be simultaneously. There is also no way to explain Eller being knocked out prior to hitting the ice other than stating that he was hit in the side of his jaw as viewable on the video at the 0.54min mark. This upwards blow may have located an initial point in the collarbone area...but the neck and jaw were also hit and targeted.

3. Rule 48.1 Now if you believe my explanation and if the shoulder, neck, and jaw were all hit simultaneously and Eller is out cold, then how can you say the head was not targeted? So it is an AND The jaw was hit and it was targeted. It is all in the same location here. The evidence to the head shot is the fact that Eller was knocked out prior to hitting the ice.

my opinion and I'm sticking to it

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

1. I posted the second rule checking from behind because that rule takes the place of the blindside hit rule.. As Shanny states Gryba is coming at Eller at an angle that doesn't allow Eller to protect himself. Eller was looking in the direction of the pass from Diaz. Gryba is skating to him at an angle behind him ......He isn't lined up square. That I believe is one factor in determining that the hit itself not completely legal. But it is not the reason for this suspension it is a secondary consideration. It cannot be. and contact is made on the back part of the body. Clearly does not apply.

2. Now Look carefully at the physics and angles to which Gryba falls. If he was hit though the body as many say ....through the hip and chest he would have been pushed straight backwards not spun around like a top. I disagree because the physics say otherwise. Eller is full speed one way, Gryba is the other way and hits him almost as a side swipe as Eller attempts to avoid. He spins as he does because physics demands it. The only way he could spin around like Eller did is due to significant contact and force to the head, neck, and shoulder area in an upwards fashion. No. There is no upwards fashion in the video. Now if you want to say Gryba makes contact first with the shoulder, ....but because Eller's head pops back so quickly I do not see this and deny the head popping back quickly so I don't accept: "it had to have been hit what looks to be simultaneously." There is also no way to explain Eller being knocked out prior to hitting the ice other than stating that he was hit in the side of his jaw as viewable on the video at the 0.54min mark. I still do not see this. I see undeniable empty space between his jaw and any part of Gryba. This upwards blow (again, no upwards blow present) may have located an initial point in the collarbone area...but the neck and jaw were also hit and targeted. I'm sorry (seriously). I don't accept the premise so I can't buy the conclusion.

3. Rule 48.1 Now if you believe my explanation (I don't) and if the shoulder, neck, and jaw were all hit simultaneously (they weren't) and Eller is out cold, then how can you say the head was not targeted? Because Shanahan says it's not. "Targeted" requires intent. Shanny clearly says they do not see intent. So it is NOT an AND The jaw was hit and it was targeted. It is all in the same location here. The evidence to the head shot is the fact that Eller was knocked out prior to hitting the ice. I've stated other very real possible causes for his being knocked out prior to hitting the ice, but there is also the possibility he wasn't. This condition is only being assumed and I'm not actually completely convinced this is the case.

tr.v. tar·get·ed, tar·get·ing, tar·gets

1. To make a target of.

2. To aim at or for.

3. To establish as a target or goal.

All of these verbs require intent...something Shanny himself says is not present.

my opinion and I'm sticking to it

The above is all a wonderful story but doesn't match the video I'm watching....at all.

[hf101]

Back in post #39 you stated your explanation of the hit by Gryba

I'm sorry. I do NOT see a hit to the chin. At full speed, slow motion, or frame by frame. I just don't. Primarily because there simply isn't one. His head hits him in the back shoulder blade subsequent to his being hit in the hip and the chest. It is very hard plastic. The combination of the whipping action from the unsuspected hit and the head hitting the hard plastic (which is what should be outlawed, by the way) is what makes him lose consciousness. It's really not that hard to explain.

??

So you are stating as in the TSN version video that Eller is hit in the hips and chest. Look again. They draw up lines that are an optical illusion due to the camera angle and distance away on the ice. One can't tell how much distance is between the two players. You are saying there is contact through the hip and the chest prior to any contact with the head.

However, let me define the physics of the hit w /r to that statement.

According to the third law of motion. "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to that of the first body."

Where then is the force in the equal and opposite direction in the hip and chest area that is equal and opposite to the direction of the force being applied to Eller by Gryba? I don't see it. Because it didn't happen. The initial impact does not take place in the hips and chest. It takes place in the shoulder - collarbone-neck-jaw of Eller. The reactionary force is the head flipping back or whipping action and the lift and spin from the side force that propels Eller to swing around. The whipping action is not Eller avoiding the hit because if it was he would be trying to avoid the hit with his whole body.

" I disagree because the physics say otherwise. Eller is full speed one way, Gryba is the other way and hits him almost as a side swipe as Eller attempts to avoid. He spins as he does because physics demands it."

Then explain please more what you are saying? How can you say Eller is at full speed one way And yet you are also saying that Eller is turning and avoiding a side swipe with his body at the same time, how is that possible?

Instead Eller is decreasing in speed to almost a stop as he connects the pass from Diaz while turning his body towards Gryba at the point of impact. Eller spins because he is hit in the upper shoulder head area at the same time he is turning. The Reactionary force causes the spin in the equal and opposite direction given. IF contact is made first through the hips the spin doesn't take place, instead Eller falls backward.

You've stated several times that Shanahan says the head was not targeted. That is not what Shanahan said. Shanahan says there was not "malicious intent", but the "head was targeted recklessly as there was not enough contact through the body". AND The (shoulder-colarbone-neck-jaw)- head is the principal point of contact.

[ruxpin]

Back in post #39 you stated your explanation of the hit by Gryba

??

So you are stating as in the TSN version video that Eller is hit in the hips and chest. Look again. They draw up lines that are an optical illusion due to the camera angle and distance away on the ice Not just the TSN version. also the Shanny video where he shows the same angle and then later in the video where he shows the higher end zone angle. One can't tell how much distance is between the two players. You are saying there is contact through the hip and the chest prior to any contact with the head. Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

However, let me define the physics of the hit w /r to that statement.

According to the third law of motion. "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to that of the first body." Have someone run into one side of your body and see if you fall directly backward. Have someone drive into the right front side of your car and see if the car goes backward. I guarantee if they do and you even in the last second attempt to turn the wheels left that your car is not going directly backward. And that's the physics of it. (edited out your bold so you could see mine)

Where then is the force in the equal and opposite direction in the hip and chest area that is equal and opposite to the direction of the force being applied to Eller by Gryba? I'm not following you here but I'm fairly sure it's because I'm barely awake at the moment (really. not a comment on the subject). I don't see it. Because it didn't happen. The initial impact does not take place in the hips and chest. It takes place in the shoulder - collarbone-neck-jaw of Eller. He never touches his neck-jaw. The reactionary force is the head flipping back or whipping action (once again, I don't acknowledge the flipping back happened, at least not to the extent you seem to be making it) and the lift and spin from the side force that propels Eller to swing around. Yes, we agree on the side force. I'm saying the side force happened lower. (I'm re-reading you and just caught this. I'm too tired to go and edit other responses so I'm just letting you know this was edited in after the fact) The whipping action is not Eller avoiding the hit because if it was he would be trying to avoid the hit with his whole body. Well, yes, but he obviously didn't get out of the way, did he? I don't get what this statement proves. His whole body spun, didn't it?

Then explain please more what you are saying? How can you say Eller is at full speed one way And yet you are also saying that Eller is turning and avoiding a side swipe with his body at the same time, how is that possible? I honestly don't understand the difficulty here. Full speed. In a way too late attempt to avoid contact he pivots his weight, is hit causing him to spin. It's very possible and happens quite often. It obviously doesn't usually end up with a face plant, but I'm not quite sure I understand the "how is that possible?" thing.

Instead Eller is decreasing in speed to almost a stop as he connects the pass from Diaz while turning his body towards Gryba at the point of impact. Eller spins because he is hit in the upper shoulder head area at the same time he is turning. I don't think he'd spin in the direction he did if this were the case. The Reactionary force causes the spin in the equal and opposite direction given. IF contact is made first through the hips the spin doesn't take place, instead Eller falls backward. Not if he's shifting his weight to his left at the very last second to avoid contact and isn't hit square.

You've stated several times that Shanahan says the head was not targeted. That is not what Shanahan said. Shanahan says there was not "malicious intent", but the "head was targeted recklessly as there was not enough contact through the body". AND The (shoulder-colarbone-neck-jaw)- head is the principal point of contact. let's end this with agreeing to disagree because I do completely disagree.

You're doing a great job keeping level-headed, but I don't want to keep pushing this until one of us loses our patience.

[hf101]

You're doing a great job keeping level-headed, but I don't want to keep pushing this until one of us loses our patience.

Cool, I agree to disagree.