The HF.net Hall of Fame

[goalnut3133]

Billy Beane is credited as a genius, had a book written in no small part about him, a movie, etc. Mostly it's because he's a handsome insider, and James is a neck-beard outsider, and if people think Beane had baseball men chafing, just think of what they thought of a chubby night security guard from a pork and beans plant telling them how wrong they were.

Absolutely true...I always wondered why Beane got so much credit & glory when his info/decision-making were based on Bill James' formulas & principles.

[JR Ewing]

That would be fun, trying to do some of the older players....AND, it's August...nothing better to do, except watch my TIgers kick some butt!!

I like the idea of just sticking to your criteria, that way we have a significant strong base to cross compare the totals.

Exactly. This is prime summer stuff here.

" I got turned on to his stuff while messing around at the public library when I was about 9, so around 1982 or so, and I then had to read everything of his that I could get my hands."

Waaait a minute here, when other kids were playing with marbles and playing tag, you were knee deep in stats?? HA HA...that is great!!

I played marbles and tag and baseball, rode every square inch of Trenton, Ontario on my bike, ran around in the woods with a jack knife and a BB gun all of that stuff, too. But, I also made sure to get to the library as much as I could because I liked to read, too.

And man... Kids are sheltered now.

JR

[JR Ewing]

Absolutely true...I always wondered why Beane got so much credit & glory when his info/decision-making were based on Bill James' formulas & principles.

Standing on the shoulders of giants... Not the first time, won't be the last.

JR

[goalnut3133]

Another thing I'd like to propose:

If we're going to go through the process of voting, I'd like to ensure that we don't just concentrate on the last two or three decades, and make an attempt to look at players from decades gone by. For those who know about these guys, it's a chance to fill other people in about them, to spread knowledge of the game. For those who don't know about some of those players, it can help create more appreciation for different eras of hockey, those players, and help provide context for how to view modern players as well.

JR

Awesome idea JR! Would love to hear & learn more about those past players that also deserve a ton of credit...would also love to hear more about goalies' performance from those times as well! Such a different era for the game....

[jammer2]

@JR Ewing "Career like his are ones where the sum is greater than the whole of its parts: never had a great season, but wound up with great career numbers."

I'd put Mike Gartner in the same catagory. The ultimate in consistancy, but it was usually 35 goals about average, but Mike also had a big year when he went 50/52 for 102 pts. He also had 48, 46 and a 44 goal seasons, people don't give him enough credit for being elite because of all the 30-40 seasons.

Dave did have the one big year, 1994 for the Leafs he had 53 goals and 99 points. Strange, I don't remember him getting 99 pts. I'm guessing those were the Mogilny days for Toronto, don't recall at the moment.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Last Andreychuk point I want to throw in then I will get off the subject, he is the all time leader in power play goals, nobody active is likely to come close to breaking the record. That has to count for something.

Only because he played in the 80's.

Unless the game opens up again and pads shrink, nobody is likely to beat many records set in that era

[yave1964]

Only because he played in the 80's.

Unless the game opens up again and pads shrink, nobody is likely to beat many records set in that era

Wayne and Messier and Yzerman and Hull and Mogilny and Shanny and so did a million other people in the high scoring eighties but Andreychuk stands atop all of them in this category.

[JR Ewing]

@JR Ewing "Career like his are ones where the sum is greater than the whole of its parts: never had a great season, but wound up with great career numbers."

I'd put Mike Gartner in the same catagory. The ultimate in consistancy, but it was usually 35 goals about average, but Mike also had a big year when he went 50/52 for 102 pts. He also had 48, 46 and a 44 goal seasons, people don't give him enough credit for being elite because of all the 30-40 seasons.

Dave did have the one big year, 1994 for the Leafs he had 53 goals and 99 points. Strange, I don't remember him getting 99 pts. I'm guessing those were the Mogilny days for Toronto, don't recall at the moment.

Yeah, Gartner's another one of those guys, too.

JR

[JR Ewing]

Re all-time records: I've wrestled with the issue over time, but finally decided long ago not to use them in this sort of system (and trust me, this has evolved over the years).

One thing which is important when creating something like this is that it treats players from all eras fairly, and if you add a section for records then it pretty much rules out anybody who wasn't born from about 1955 to 1965, give or take a year or two on each side.

a] All of those lists are completely dominated by players who had their prime years in the 80s thru the early 90s.

b] Schedule lengths are so disparate through the league's history, making such lists completely biased towards the modern player as well.

c] The NHL didn't even begin tracking power play goals until 1967-68, making the all-time leader's list even more titled towards later players. If it was tracked previously, the numbers would possibly have been badly skewed in the opposite direction. Until 1957, a power play lasted the full two minutes, regardless of how many goals were scored.

So, when you use a record like PP goals, etc, it tells you more about the era in which a guy played than it does about the quality of his play. Yes, we can compare him to the other players of his time and note that he was better at it than the them, but it gives no ability to compare him to the rest of the pool.

It's the same reason that you don't see things like the Olympics, Canada Cup, etc on the list as well. I would LOVE to have that on there, but anybody from pre-1972 doesn't have the opportunity to score points there.

Fun trivia - Andreychuk scored more PPG than anybody, but Ray Bourque was on the ice for 361 more PPG than Andreychuk, and 83 more than #2 (Al MacInnis). The forward who was on the ice for the most PPG: Wayne Gretzky (1162).

JR

[yave1964]

@JR Ewing

Love doing the little write up about the Cyclone.

BTW dont you ever sleep, lol?

[JR Ewing]

@JR Ewing

Love doing the little write up about the Cyclone.

BTW dont you ever sleep, lol?

I'll sleep when I'm dead.

JR

[pilldoc]

@JR Ewing

Great topic! Give me some time to read through all the posts before I attempt to embarress myself!!! (Just kidding)

I saw that someone already mention Forsberg and Lindros. Off the top of my head Forsberg ----> yes and by your criteria Lindros --->No (which will generate alot of debate among the Flyers faithful on here)......

Great topic!

[JR Ewing]

@JR Ewing

Great topic! Give me some time to read through all the posts before I attempt to embarress myself!!! (Just kidding)

I saw that someone already mention Forsberg and Lindros. Off the top of my head Forsberg ----> yes and by your criteria Lindros --->No (which will generate alot of debate among the Flyers faithful on here)......

Great topic!

Great. I hope to see you jump in here, too, with more players. Pretty soon, I think we can start really coming up with a concensus on each of the players in question, and then start adding them to the HF.net HOF.

JR

[pilldoc]

@JR Ewing

I am assuming we are only looking at retired players and not active players?

Edited August 3, 2013 by pilldoc

[pilldoc]

OK...I'll take a stab at it.

Alexander Mogilny

(YES) 1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?

(YES) 2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?

(YES) 3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

1992–93 NHL Season – Goal Scoring Leader (76) (*tied)

(YES) 4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

1992–93 NHL Season – Goal Scoring Leader (76) (*tied)

(YES) 5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?

2000 New Jersey Devils

(NO) 6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?

can't remember if he was a key person for the Devils to win or not

(YES) 7. Was he ever a team Captain?

(NO) 8. Was he ever team Captain of a Stanley Cup winner?

I don't think he was captain of Devils

(NO) 9. Did many regard him to be an excellent defensive player?

(NO) 10. Did many regard his physical play/hitting to be an intimidating factor? (NOTE: We're not looking for pests here)

(YES) 11. Did he play alot/well after he passed his prime?

about 3 yrs

(YES) 12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?

• NHL Second All-Star Team – 1993, 1996
  

(YES) 13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?

yes many

(NO) 14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections)

(NO) 15. Did he win a Conn Smythe Trophy? (pre-1965: see resources)

(NO) 16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)

(YES) 17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?

Alexander Mogilny was the first Russian player to defect from the Soviet Union in May 1989, first non-North American to lead the league in goals scored (along with Teemu Selänne from

Finland

), first Russian to be named to the

NHL All-Star Team

, first Russian to be named captain of an NHL team, and is (as of the end of the

2008–09 season

) the second

all-time Russian scorer in the NHL

. Mogilny was the second Russian player to score

1000 points in the NHL

, reaching the milestone just a few days after former linemate Sergei Fedorov.

(YES) 18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played?

see above #17

I'm counting 11 Yes ...so does this make him a HoF'er???? based on his accomplishments...I say YES!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Mogilny

Alex, I think, was the strongest. He has the most agility, the quickest release and the best shot...the leader of our line"

—

Sergei Fedorov, who played on a line with Mogilny and Pavel Bure internationally

[JR Ewing]

Thanks for joining in.

Alexander Mogilny

(YES) 1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?

No, definitely not. Just off the top of my head there's Jagr, Sakic, Lidstrom, Hull, Recchi, Modano, Leetch all ahead of him, and that's just a quick list.

(YES) 2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?

During Mogilny's time, look at the RW in the NHL:

Jaromir Jagr - 5 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 3 Lindsay, 7 time 1st All-Star, scored 516 more points during same period

Brett Hull - 3 Richard, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay, 3 time 1st All-Star, outscored Mogilny

Selanne - 3 Richard, 2 time 1st All-Star, 2 time 2nd All-Star, outscored Mogilny

That's just three guy. Alexander Mogilny was terrific, but was not the best RW in hockey.

(YES) 5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?

2000 New Jersey Devils

In 2000, Mogilny had a depth role and was the Devils 3 line RW, only scoring 7 points. In general, Mogilny's scoring really dropped in the playoffs over the course of his career, going from 1.04 PPG down to 0.69 in the playoffs. He just can't get a point here, either.

(YES) 17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?

Alexander Mogilny was the first Russian player to defect from the Soviet Union in May 1989, first non-North American to lead the league in goals scored (along with Teemu Selänne from

Finland

), first Russian to be named to the

NHL All-Star Team

, first Russian to be named captain of an NHL team, and is (as of the end of the

2008–09 season

) the second

all-time Russian scorer in the NHL

. Mogilny was the second Russian player to score

1000 points in the NHL

, reaching the milestone just a few days after former linemate Sergei Fedorov.

-Actually, Jari Kurri was the first non-North American to lead the NHL in goal scoring, in 1986. Minor point, but worth mentioning.

-Those other points are all fine accomplishments, and he was brave to defect, but I'm not how sure the NHL had intense focus brought upon it because of Mogilny. He didn't become a household name to those who are not fans. I think of this point this way: my wife doesn't like baseball, watch it, know about it, or care about: but she knows who Babe Ruth was. EVERYBODY knows who Babe Ruth was. Everybody who couldn't care about golf knows who Tiger Woods. People who know nothing about boxing know who Muhammad Ali is. This is meant to be an extremely difficult point to score on, and there's just no way Mogilny can get one here.

(YES) 18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played?

see above #17

Mogilny was dynamite, but did not innovate the game or find a way to exploit the sport to the extent that the league needed to change its rules.

I'm counting 11 Yes ...so does this make him a HoF'er???? based on his accomplishments...I say YES!

I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of Mogilny, for the reasons outlined above. I count 6, which is a fine career.

How about the rest of you?

JR

[pilldoc]

Thanks for joining in.

No, definitely not. Just off the top of my head there's Jagr, Sakic, Lidstrom, Hull, Recchi, Modano, Leetch all ahead of him, and that's just a quick list.

During Mogilny's time, look at the RW in the NHL:

Jaromir Jagr - 5 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 3 Lindsay, 7 time 1st All-Star, scored 516 more points during same period

Brett Hull - 3 Richard, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay, 3 time 1st All-Star, outscored Mogilny

Selanne - 3 Richard, 2 time 1st All-Star, 2 time 2nd All-Star, outscored Mogilny

That's just three guy. Alexander Mogilny was terrific, but was not the best RW in hockey.

In 2000, Mogilny had a depth role and was the Devils 3 line RW, only scoring 7 points. In general, Mogilny's scoring really dropped in the playoffs over the course of his career, going from 1.04 PPG down to 0.69 in the playoffs. He just can't get a point here, either.

-Actually, Jari Kurri was the first non-North American to lead the NHL in goal scoring, in 1986. Minor point, but worth mentioning.

-Those other points are all fine accomplishments, and he was brave to defect, but I'm not how sure the NHL had intense focus brought upon it because of Mogilny. He didn't become a household name to those who are not fans. I think of this point this way: my wife doesn't like baseball, watch it, know about it, or care about: but she knows who Babe Ruth was. EVERYBODY knows who Babe Ruth was. Everybody who couldn't care about golf knows who Tiger Woods. People who know nothing about boxing know who Muhammad Ali is. This is meant to be an extremely difficult point to score on, and there's just no way Mogilny can get one here.

Mogilny was dynamite, but did not innovate the game or find a way to exploit the sport to the extent that the league needed to change its rules.

I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of Mogilny, for the reasons outlined above. I count 6, which is a fine career.

How about the rest of you?

JR

Nah that is quite alright to disagree. I always thought as Mogilny as one of the upper tier players. Most of his career was over 10-15 yrs ago. I have a hard time remembering what I did 2 yrs ago! Seriously...I always thought of him as a borderline HOF'er before your Q&A session. I guess I was also looking at his entire body of work including International play. I must admit I did have a hard time answering some of the questions. As far as Q#17...after rereading your response...I totally get your point. So can I change my vote!