G not on Olympic Team Canada...wow

[mojo1917]

What? You guys didn't think Pens fans did their homework?

 

the pens fans that post here are a-typical of most of the central PA knuckleheads i deal with on the daily. So good for you , you have the wherewithal and resources to copy and paste stuff i can appreciate that on some level.

 

I haven't been following your team this year , can't seem to pull the venom from the reserves as easily to care i guess, there is Urban Meyer, Yankees & Tom Brady to hate as well and i guess as i age i'm losing something on the fastball regarding sports hate.

i had no idea the were playing so well.

Enjoy it , the playoffs are just around the corner.

[B21]

Again, when Giroux is on the ice, the other team is focusing on Giroux.  When Neal and Malkin are on the ice, the first check isn't Neal.  Stats are stats and reality is reality.

 

If Neal wasn't such an asshole, I'd be happy to have him as a Flyer, though.

 

 

Except that Neal's production doen't drop off when Malkin has been out. 

 

Again - right now I'd say Giroux is better and would conceded that that majority of GM's would take Giroux over Neal.  But...it's a slight edge. Not "OMG Giroux is soooooooooo much better than James Neal!"

 

Everyone loves MSL.  Can I argue he's a product of VLC and then Stamkos?  What about Perry/Getzlaf? There really is an "it's all Crosby" or "it's all Malkin" attitude when Neal or Kunitz come up.  Never the other successful foward combinations though.  Hmmm.

[B21]

the pens fans that post here are a-typical of most of the central PA knuckleheads i deal with on the daily. So good for you , you have the wherewithal and resources to copy and paste stuff i can appreciate that on some level.

 

I haven't been following your team this year , can't seem to pull the venom from the reserves as easily to care i guess, there is Urban Meyer, Yankees & Tom Brady to hate as well and i guess as i age i'm losing something on the fastball regarding sports hate.

i had no idea the were playing so well.

Enjoy it , the playoffs are just around the corner.

 

Actually that post involved a lot of math.

[Clarke2Leach]

Except that Neal's production doen't drop off when Malkin has been out. 

 

Again - right now I'd say Giroux is better and would conceded that that majority of GM's would take Giroux over Neal.  But...it's a slight edge. Not "OMG Giroux is soooooooooo much better than James Neal!"

 

Everyone loves MSL.  Can I argue he's a product of VLC and then Stamkos?  What about Perry/Getzlaf? There really is an "it's all Crosby" or "it's all Malkin" attitude when Neal or Kunitz come up.  Never the other successful foward combinations though.  Hmmm.

You can make that argument about MSL - just not this year.  Was Neal not playing with Crosby this year at times when Dupuis and/or Malkin were hurt?  Yes, he was.  And then there's the powerplays...  Neal is a fine player - no doubt.  Giroux just carries a much heavier load.

[JackStraw]

I think Neal has a way way way better case than Kunitz on his own merits.

 

Same here. But he's still a jerk.

[mojo1917]

Can I argue he's a product of VLC and then Stamkos? 

 

you can... except this year no Stamkos yet MSL is still producing with the additional attention/pressure of being "the guy" plus he's old now....

so i don't know how far you want proceed with that argument. but you do like debate a bad position until people lose interest so , i don't know... might be right down your alley 

[B21]

You can make that argument about MSL - just not this year.  Was Neal not playing with Crosby this year at times when Dupuis and/or Malkin were hurt?  Yes, he was.  And then there's the powerplays...  Neal is a fine player - no doubt.  Giroux just carries a much heavier load.

 

MAYBE a handful of games. Like 2-3. Not enough to make a difference in his statistics.

 

As for MSL - yeah, not this half season. Just the last 10-12 years of his career.  So my point still stands.

[radoran]

You can make that argument about MSL - just not this year.  Was Neal not playing with Crosby this year at times when Dupuis and/or Malkin were hurt?  Yes, he was.  And then there's the powerplays...  Neal is a fine player - no doubt.  Giroux just carries a much heavier load.

 

No, you really can't make that argument about MSL. Players just don't win the Art Ross with two different centers and win the Hart and Peason "on the backs" of another player.

 

Kunitz has had success with two different centers on two different teams. Yes, he scored 60 in Anaheim - but he's basically a consistent 20/50 guy who get elevated to 25/60 status with Crosby. Nothing wrong with that. Clearly last season is an outlier in his career.

 

Regardless, Kunitz is a wing while Giroux is tagged as a centre for the past few years. Giroux as a centre is simply not going to crack the Canadian lineup and the Canadian braintrust obviously felt that they would rather have the built-in chemistry Kunitz has shown with two centres on the roster over a guy who would be moving "out of position" and doesn't have the relationship.

 

Nothing wrong with that.

 

Giroux wasn't "snubbed" - he lost out in a numbers game.

[Clarke2Leach]

Same here. But he's still a jerk.

Neal's self-control isn't much better than Carcillo's - if at all.

[B21]

Same here. But he's still a jerk jackhole.

 

Fixed.  Though I smell another Matt Cooke-like "find Jesus" turnaround in the cards for him.  But it will take several years to lose the rep.

[JackStraw]

Everyone loves MSL.  Can I argue he's a product of VLC and then Stamkos? 

 

You could try, but nobody would buy it. If I made that argument would you buy it?

[B21]

you can... except this year no Stamkos yet MSL is still producing with the additional attention/pressure of being "the guy" plus he's old now....

so i don't know how far you want proceed with that argument. but you do like debate a bad position until people lose interest so , i don't know... might be right down your alley 

 

Good Lord. The point was that for 95% of his career MSL has had the benefit of playing with Stamkos and VLC in his prime.  No - not this half season.

 

Yet he still gets (and has gotten) a lot less "product of his linemates" when it comes to his standing among the league's top players and whether he should/should not have been selected to the Olympic team.

 

Why?  Color of the jersey maybe?

[JackStraw]

Neal's self-control isn't much better than Carcillo's - if at all.

 

It's not even just the stuff he does, it's the highly weasely excuses he makes afterwards. 

[JackStraw]

Fixed.  Though I smell another Matt Cooke-like "find Jesus" turnaround in the cards for him.  But it will take several years to lose the rep.

 

Unlike Cooke, Neal is a legitimate star player. So he may not have quite the same motivation as Cooke did. It would be nice to see him see the light though. Because he's a fun player to watch when he's not being a jer... I mean jackhole.

[B21]

You could try, but nobody would buy it. If I made that argument would you buy it?

 

Depends on how good the argument is.  MSL had some pretty "meh" years until Stamkos.   He did win the Art Ross in 03-04 with little help from VLC.  His only other "big" year was 06-07 when VLC has his career high 52 goals. After that it was 2 seasons of PPG until Stamkos when his numbers jumped to well over a PPG.

 

I don't mean to knock MSL or insinuate he's not better than Kunitz but the production is noticeably better with Stamkos than without and, to a lesser extend, with VLC once he found his game than before. 

 

Again - no comparison with Kunitz.  Definite comparison with Neal.  But back to my point...it never seems to be considered that maybe MSL is at least partly a product of his linemate (especially Stamkos) yet when Neal comes up his success is quickly dismissed as "Malkin". 

[radoran]

Depends on how good the argument is.  MSL had some pretty "meh" years until Stamkos.   He did win the Art Ross in 03-04 with little help from VLC.  His only other "big" year was 06-07 when VLC has his career high 52 goals. After that it was 2 seasons of PPG until Stamkos when his numbers jumped to well over a PPG.

 

You should really do some research on MSL before posting, because you're obviously good at research.

 

05-06 - 31 goals, 60 points - 30 goals wouldn't be considered "meh" by anyone's standards

06-07 - 43 goals, 102 points - "meh"?

07-08 - 25 goals, 83 points - "meh"?

08-09 - 30 goals, 80 points - "meh"?

09-10 - 29 goals, 94 points - "meh"?

10-11 - 31 goals, 99 points - "meh"?

11-12 - 25 goals, 74 points (77 games) - "meh"?

12-13 - 17 goals, 60 points (48 games) - "meh"?

 

Neal has one (1) season that beat's MSL's "lowest" point total since 03-04. He's scored more than 30 - once. In the shortened season last year when MSL had 60 points? Neal had 36.

 

This season MSL has 40 points in 43 games. Stamkos has only played 17 this season.

 

MSL is many, many times the player James Neal is. Always has been. Always will be.

 

There is simply no comparison between MSL and Neal and no evidence whatsoever that MSL is in any way, shape or form a "product" of playing with VLC or Stamkos.

[JackStraw]

@B21 - Phil Esposito's production was better with Bobby Orr than without.

 

At some point you just have to fall back on the old "eye test". And the eye test tells me MSL would be great if he was playing with sheep (nttawwt).

[radoran]

@B21 - Phil Esposito's production was better with Bobby Orr than without.

 

At some point you just have to fall back on the old "eye test". And the eye test tells me MSL would be great if he was playing with sheep (nttawwt).

 

You don't have to rely on the "eye test" to say that a six time "point per game" player is better than a guy who has reached a point per game in his career once.

 

To declare a point-per-game player to be "meh" is to call into question one's objectivity and hockey knowledge.

 

Likewise to declare a player who has 40 points in 43 games a "product" of playing with a player who has only played 17 games.

 

it's ludicrous on the face of it.

[Clarke2Leach]

You don't have to rely on the "eye test" to say that a six time "point per game" player is better than a guy who has reached a point per game in his career once.

 

To declare a point-per-game player to be "meh" is to call into question one's objectivity and hockey knowledge.

 

Likewise to declare a player who has 40 points in 43 games a "product" of playing with a player who has only played 17 games.

 

it's ludicrous on the face of it.

It's also ludicrilous.

[mojo1917]

the moral to the story don't speak ill of @radoran 's catamounts...

[radoran]

the moral to the story don't speak ill of @radoran 's catamounts...

 

You can speak ill of them - just make sure you know wtf you are saying

[fanaticV3.0]

The boys have won 10 in a row at home, 5 of 6 on the road trip, have jumped to 5th place in the conference, and I have to keep seeing a thread about Giroux not makign the Olympic team - which has turned into a thread about Neal, Kunitz, and MSL - at the top of the list every time I check the list of topics.

 

Somebody kill me now.

[Clarke2Leach]

The boys have won 10 in a row at home, 5 of 6 on the road trip, have jumped to 5th place in the conference, and I have to keep seeing a thread about Giroux not makign the Olympic team - which has turned into a thread about Neal, Kunitz, and MSL - at the top of the list every time I check the list of topics.

 

Somebody kill me now.

Where are you right now?

[aziz]

Depends on how good the argument is. MSL had some pretty "meh" years until Stamkos. He did win the Art Ross in 03-04 with little help from VLC. His only other "big" year was 06-07 when VLC has his career high 52 goals. After that it was 2 seasons of PPG until Stamkos when his numbers jumped to well over a PPG.

I don't mean to knock MSL or insinuate he's not better than Kunitz but the production is noticeably better with Stamkos than without and, to a lesser extend, with VLC once he found his game than before.

Again - no comparison with Kunitz. Definite comparison with Neal. But back to my point...it never seems to be considered that maybe MSL is at least partly a product of his linemate (especially Stamkos) yet when Neal comes up his success is quickly dismissed as "Malkin".

You are failing to allow for degrees, here. Yes, MSL's numbers go up when he has ultra high calibre linemates. Of course. Thing is, they go up from an already very high level. His least productive season after his sophomore year was equal to kunitz's BEST non-crosby season. He is at an entirely different level, and only made that much better by his linemates.

Neal comes closer, but he again was well below a point per game until malkin became his center.

[radoran]

The boys have won 10 in a row at home, 5 of 6 on the road trip, have jumped to 5th place in the conference, and I have to keep seeing a thread about Giroux not makign the Olympic team - which has turned into a thread about Neal, Kunitz, and MSL - at the top of the list every time I check the list of topics.

 

Somebody kill me now.

 

There is that "start new topic" button on the Flyers forum...