How much worse does it have to get? Is Homer in Sochi?

[caluso]

I never once said he was a second line center on every team so not sure what you are talking about. But, you keep referring stats and he has the 4th best on the team...

you said, and i quote, that he would be a top 6 player on every team. he is this team's second line center. his stats show that he would be a third line center almost everywhere else.

 

as for being the fourth best here, he is mediocre on a team void of talent.

 

look, i want to be clear, i am all for developing young players.  but to continually cut players slack because they are "young" is dangerous - especially if those players lack effort. effort doesn't come with age. i was appalled when we traded Bob, for example. also, i have been simmonds biggest supporter because he busts his butt every shift.

 

schenn has been gifted his role here and, in my opinion, doesn't work hard enough to merit that.

[caluso]

@mojo1917

 

you know, i get his frustration with the effort side of things, but his idea that age is completely irrelevant mystifies.  the kid is a work in progress, the fact that he isn't a complete package, utterly solid roster player at 22 only means that he has work to do.  he is better this season than last, and was better last than the one before that.  the trend is in the right direction.

 

i think he really thinks there are 30 or 40 20 yearolds in the league playing like 30 yearold vets, scoring at a point per game and always knowing exactly what they are supposed to do.

matt duchesne, j eberle, r nugent-hopkins, ryan johansen, g landeskog, jeff skinner, reilly smith, n kadri, b saad, jaden schwartz, ryan o'reilly, d stepan, taylor hall, mikkel boedker, n mackinnon, marcus johansson, tyler seguin, j tavares, eric karlsson, tyler johnson, chris kreider   are all 23 or younger and are outscoring schenn on a per game basis. that's 20, by my count.

 

i only mention the 20 players because it seems like everybody is using youth as an excuse for scehnn and i dont buy that. schenn lacks a consistent effort and effort should be given irrespective of age. 

 

also, full disclosure, i am aware that there is more to a player than the points he scores. however, schenn is lousy at faceoffs and is a mediocre defender.

Edited January 25, 2014 by caluso

[aziz]

are all 23 or younger and are outscoring schenn on a per game basis. that's 20, by my count.

 

true.  and if you use players 25 or younger, the number gets even higher.  problem is, schenn is 22.  so.

[caluso]

true.  and if you use players 25 or younger, the number gets even higher.  problem is, schenn is 22.  so.

and, by the way, i didn't include evander kane, stamkos, tarasenko, hertl and monahan on that list- all guys i would take over schenn. 

 

my point is, the nhl is filled with young players (yes, dozens!) who are actually playing well - irrespective of their age. and while i hope schenn develops, he should be expected to produce AT HIS AGE.

 

anyway, i enjoy the banter and i hope you know that i respect your posts.

[aziz]

and, by the way, i didn't include evander kane, stamkos, tarasenko, hertl and monahan on that list- all guys i would take over schenn. 
 
my point is, the nhl is filled with young players (yes, dozens!) who are actually playing well - irrespective of their age. and while i hope schenn develops, he should be expected to produce AT HIS AGE.

 

well, you couldn't very well have included any of those players on the list, because stamkos is older than schenn, and schenn is outproducing each and every one of the others.

 

that's the thing, there is different point of view regarding a flyer like schenn versus  peers on other teams like kane or tarasenko.  kane has had even more questions about his work ethic and attitude than schenn, but you'd rather have kane.  tarasenko is being outproduced by schenn, but you'd rather tarasenko.  i'm not saying schenn is the better option than either of them, but objectively he is right there in the mix with them both.  i don't know enough about tarasenko to say a whole lot about him, but if kane were a flyer, he'd be run up the same exact flag pole schenn is currently stuck on.  takes shifts off, coasts around a lot, lazy penalties, selfish plays...and in the end, similar point scoring.

 

schenn is a third year player, producing at a .6 p/g pace (almost identical to kane's career .62).  that is a more than respectable figure, leaves him in some fairly exclusive company.  elite?  no, not really.  are there 20 players in the league doing the same?  maybe.  that doesn't mean that it isn't a strong showing, that it doesn't bode well for him as a core contributor in a couple years.  he is maturing, both physically and mentally/emotionally.  one day evander kane will grow up and will really commit himself to his team.  he's a safe bet over the long run.  i don't see why schenn isn't the same.

[caluso]

well, you couldn't very well have included any of those players on the list, because stamkos is older than schenn, and schenn is outproducing each and every one of the others.

 

that's the thing, there is different point of view regarding a flyer like schenn versus  peers on other teams like kane or tarasenko.  kane has had even more questions about his work ethic and attitude than schenn, but you'd rather have kane.  tarasenko is being outproduced by schenn, but you'd rather tarasenko.  i'm not saying schenn is the better option than either of them, but objectively he is right there in the mix with them both.  i don't know enough about tarasenko to say a whole lot about him, but if kane were a flyer, he'd be run up the same exact flag pole schenn is currently stuck on.  takes shifts off, coasts around a lot, lazy penalties, selfish plays...and in the end, similar point scoring.

 

schenn is a third year player, producing at a .6 p/g pace (almost identical to kane's career .62).  that is a more than respectable figure, leaves him in some fairly exclusive company.  elite?  no, not really.  are there 20 players in the league doing the same?  maybe.  that doesn't mean that it isn't a strong showing, that it doesn't bode well for him as a core contributor in a couple years.  he is maturing, both physically and mentally/emotionally.  one day evander kane will grow up and will really commit himself to his team.  he's a safe bet over the long run.  i don't see why schenn isn't the same.

stamkos is 23. and both tarasenko and kane are outperforming schenn on a ppg basis. 

 

this whole thread took a turn when king knut stated that schenn would be a top 6 forward on every team. i responded that there are dozens of players schenn's age or younger who i would rather have. and, that hasn't changed. in fact, after researching the wealth of young talent in the nhl, schenn is even more mediocre by comparison.

 

again, the free ride that schenn is being given because he is 22 makes no sense to me. has he improved? a little. does his improvement or the rate of improvement excite me about his future? no! he has been in the nhl for over 2 years now and is performing at a decent level, not a spectacular one. he certainly isn't a top 6 forward on every team!

 

is schenn's play worthy of all the blind support he has received? i say, no, you say, yes. only time will tell...

Edited January 25, 2014 by caluso

[aziz]

stamkos is 23. and both tarasenko and kane are outperforming schenn on a ppg basis. 

 

kane, yes.  tarasenko, yes, as of today, with two points this afternoon.  they were identical until today.

 

i don't think schenn would be a top 6 forward on every team in the league at this point.  on many, but not all.  i agree with you.  i disagree with your expectations, though.  you said, "he has been in the nhl for over 2 years now and is performing at a decent level, not a spectacular one."  the problem there is expecting him to be spectacular.  he isn't now, and likely never will be.  my guess is he ends up a 70-point forward in 2 or 3 years.  90 points isn't going to happen, but a 70 point forward who also really likes to throw checks, i'm a fan of that.  i don't know why you would think that worthless.

 

another thing to keep in mind:  there are 30 teams in the league.  that means there are 180 top 6 forwards in the league.  schenn is already well within that group.  90th in the league in scoring, if i remember correctly.

 

people need to understand there is value between the elite and the worthless.  just because a kid is not likely to be a future rocket richard winner doesn't mean that he will never have anything a team would want.  schenn is currently putting up decent numbers and on the balance contributing to the team.  he will get better over the next couple seasons.  that doesn't mean he should get a pass on his shortcomings now, they are there and he need to work on those things.  most players have issues of one kind or another, though.  

[caluso]

kane, yes.  tarasenko, yes, as of today, with two points this afternoon.  they were identical until today.

 

i don't think schenn would be a top 6 forward on every team in the league at this point.  on many, but not all.  i agree with you.  i disagree with your expectations, though.  you said, "he has been in the nhl for over 2 years now and is performing at a decent level, not a spectacular one."  the problem there is expecting him to be spectacular.  he isn't now, and likely never will be.  my guess is he ends up a 70-point forward in 2 or 3 years.  90 points isn't going to happen, but a 70 point forward who also really likes to throw checks, i'm a fan of that.  i don't know why you would think that worthless.

 

another thing to keep in mind:  there are 30 teams in the league.  that means there are 180 top 6 forwards in the league.  schenn is already well within that group.  90th in the league in scoring, if i remember correctly.

 

people need to understand there is value between the elite and the worthless.  just because a kid is not likely to be a future rocket richard winner doesn't mean that he will never have anything a team would want.  schenn is currently putting up decent numbers and on the balance contributing to the team.  he will get better over the next couple seasons.  that doesn't mean he should get a pass on his shortcomings now, they are there and he need to work on those things.  most players have issues of one kind or another, though.  

i think your post is terrific, honestly.  and, for the record, i don't expect schenn to be a superstar - just competitive. i hate the way he battles for the puck - all stick, no body - while his (former) linemates simmonds and hartnell wage war. also, for the record, i never said he was "worthless" just mediocre. and, no matter what you say, his stats bear that out. furthermore, i think schenn, like richards was, is miscast as s second liner. 

 

a lot of people on this board cut schenn slack because he is "only" 22. my argument is/was that he isn't precocious or special; in fact, he is mediocre when compared to other players his age. many people on this board think he is on the verge of greatness because he wears o & b, while i don't.

 

sarah baicker speculated that the flyers won't be re-signing schenn and i think she might be right. only time will tell.

[aziz]

furthermore, i think schenn, like richards was, is miscast as s second liner. 

 

meaning, he should be further down the chart?  i dunno.  the kid has talent.  that pass to voracek for the one timer today, the one where rask came all the way across for the big glove save, that was a hell of a pass.  to see voracek there and saucer it over and into the wheelhouse, that was a major league play.  he has hands, he has vision, he can skate.  he is a mediocre offensive producer right now, but the stuff is there for him to be a moderately big deal.  his skill set is what physical secondary scoring is made of.

 

i like your pointing out how he tends to go after pucks, stick checking unless he is planning on laying a guy out.  he doesn't seem to have a middle gear, doesn't know how to get a shoulder into someone with the intention of skating away with the puck...either they are both going to end up in a pile on the ice or he refuses to commit and just waves his stick.  that is where i give him slack for age, though.  that's the kind of thing he needs to learn, the kind of thing that can be and needs to be coached into him.  that's the kind of nuance that youth has trouble with and experience can teach.  it isn't a given that he will ever learn that, but at his age, i don't see why one would assume he won't.

 

 

a lot of people on this board cut schenn slack because he is "only" 22. my argument is/was that he isn't precocious or special; in fact, he is mediocre when compared to other players his age.

 

 

i just have a tough time getting on board with that.  there were, what, 210 players selected in his draft class?  maybe there are 20 or so players around his age that are beyond his level of production or effectiveness...but if he's the 21st best player selected over the last 5 years, is that really mediocre?  even 41st best player selected over the last 5 years, out of 1050 players taken.  that still seems to me to be on the winning side of the equation.

 

precious or special, no, maybe not.  you still need second line talent on your team, and most second liners are not precious or special.  i feel like he is better than most 2nd line players right now, and once he grows into his game, fills in the gaps, he'll be a very strong 4th forward.  he isn't going to ever blow people's minds or be in the conversation for best anything in the league, but very very few players are.  teams aren't made up of the best in the league, they are made of very good players who fill their roles, with a sprinkling of top talent at the, well, the top.  if you abandon the secondary players because they aren't the best of the best, you end up with a top heavy team with a big ol' hole in the middle.

 

as for sarah baicker, i'm not sure why her speculation carries any more weight than mine or yours.  i think the flyers would be amazingly foolish to just walk away from brayden schenn.  if they need to trade him to fill a need, then ok, he is what he is and ultimately can be replaced, but i don't see why you'd replace him for the sake of replacing him.  he is filling his assigned role just fine, from my point of view.  

 

his brother, on the other hand......

 

edit:  honestly, the fact that sarah baicker thinks the flyers will walk away from an RFA who is scoring at .6p/g at age 22 tells me she doesn't really understand how this whole thing works.  that would be really dumb.  i mean, he's coming off an entry level deal, it'll take less than $900k to qualify him, probably less than $2mil to resign him.  why would they not do that?  what 50 point guy are you going to get for less than that?

Edited January 26, 2014 by aziz

[caluso]

meaning, he should be further down the chart?  i dunno.  the kid has talent.  that pass to voracek for the one timer today, the one where rask came all the way across for the big glove save, that was a hell of a pass.  to see voracek there and saucer it over and into the wheelhouse, that was a major league play.  he has hands, he has vision, he can skate.  he is a mediocre offensive producer right now, but the stuff is there for him to be a moderately big deal.  his skill set is what physical secondary scoring is made of.

 

i like your pointing out how he tends to go after pucks, stick checking unless he is planning on laying a guy out.  he doesn't seem to have a middle gear, doesn't know how to get a shoulder into someone with the intention of skating away with the puck...either they are both going to end up in a pile on the ice or he refuses to commit and just waves his stick.  that is where i give him slack for age, though.  that's the kind of thing he needs to learn, the kind of thing that can be and needs to be coached into him.  that's the kind of nuance that youth has trouble with and experience can teach.  it isn't a given that he will ever learn that, but at his age, i don't see why one would assume he won't.

 

 

 

i just have a tough time getting on board with that.  there were, what, 210 players selected in his draft class?  maybe there are 20 or so players around his age that are beyond his level of production or effectiveness...but if he's the 21st best player selected over the last 5 years, is that really mediocre?  even 41st best player selected over the last 5 years, out of 1050 players taken.  that still seems to me to be on the winning side of the equation.

 

precious or special, no, maybe not.  you still need second line talent on your team, and most second liners are not precious or special.  i feel like he is better than most 2nd line players right now, and once he grows into his game, fills in the gaps, he'll be a very strong 4th forward.  he isn't going to ever blow people's minds or be in the conversation for best anything in the league, but very very few players are.  teams aren't made up of the best in the league, they are made of very good players who fill their roles, with a sprinkling of top talent at the, well, the top.  if you abandon the secondary players because they aren't the best of the best, you end up with a top heavy team with a big ol' hole in the middle.

 

as for sarah baicker, i'm not sure why her speculation carries any more weight than mine or yours.  i think the flyers would be amazingly foolish to just walk away from brayden schenn.  if they need to trade him to fill a need, then ok, he is what he is and ultimately can be replaced, but i don't see why you'd replace him for the sake of replacing him.  he is filling his assigned role just fine, from my point of view.  

 

his brother, on the other hand......

 

edit:  honestly, the fact that sarah baicker thinks the flyers will walk away from an RFA who is scoring at .6p/g at age 22 tells me she doesn't really understand how this whole thing works.  that would be really dumb.  i mean, he's coming off an entry level deal, it'll take less than $900k to qualify him, probably less than $2mil to resign him.  why would they not do that?  what 50 point guy are you going to get for less than that?

by the way, your opinion means more to me than hers. i was just saying...

 

i was actually shocked you got my reference to schenn's happen of "swordfighting" for the puck instead of actually getting in their and battling.

 

i didn't see today's game but i am not disputing schenn's talent as much as his work ethic and hockey iq. having said that, the move he made the other day, when he put the puck behind his back on the rush, was sick.

 

also, you make great points and i actually agree with a lot of what you posted. i really hope that it all works out for schenn and the flyers. the team is so screwed up right now.

[jammer2]

@caluso   Usually a 4th year in the league is very telling about these young 22-23 year old kids. It's usually the year they break out and you get a much better feel for how they will progress moving forward. There is a really good chance Brayden explodes next year and enters the 65-70 point range for the first time.

[aziz]

@caluso

 

i think you raise some really good points, too.  as jammer points out, schenn is coming up on a put-up-or-shut-up time in his career.  i guess my point is that he hasn't hit that yet, and his issues are ones that don't surprise me from a kid on the not-there-yet side of that moment.  two years from now, if he's still showing the weaknesses you rightfully point out, i start moving to the other side of the debate.  for the time being, though, i think he still has learning to do, and can still learn.

 

 and yes, this team is a mess right now.  not a calgary/edmonton/toronto mess, but not part of the upper mix, and i'm not sure how one goes about getting them back to that.  they are lacking in some profound areas, and being profound, they're really hard to nail down to specific solutions.

[caluso]

@caluso

 

i think you raise some really good points, too.  as jammer points out, schenn is coming up on a put-up-or-shut-up time in his career.  i guess my point is that he hasn't hit that yet, and his issues are ones that don't surprise me from a kid on the not-there-yet side of that moment.  two years from now, if he's still showing the weaknesses you rightfully point out, i start moving to the other side of the debate.  for the time being, though, i think he still has learning to do, and can still learn.

 

 and yes, this team is a mess right now.  not a calgary/edmonton/toronto mess, but not part of the upper mix, and i'm not sure how one goes about getting them back to that.  they are lacking in some profound areas, and being profound, they're really hard to nail down to specific solutions.

i agree with what jammer says, too. and,  i hope you guys are right. as i said, a big part of the future is tied to schenn and couturier so i hope they develop into the players we all want them to be.

 

as for the state of the team, i must say that i am perplexed. why is it that they don't show up, don't compete, for so many games, so many shifts?

 

i really don't understand it.

 

i know the team is flawed - heck, every team is flawed - but to not compete.......really inexcusable.

 

and, dare i say it, is it time to start worrying about mason? how crazy would it be if he went into the tank moments after landing a new deal?

Edited January 26, 2014 by caluso

[jammer2]

@caluso  "and, dare i say it, is it time to start worrying about mason? how crazy would it be if he went into the tank moments after landing a new deal?"

 

 

  Some of the pessimists among us (myself included) almost expected it. He was stellar in November and his stats have been in a downward spiral ever since, so not a shocker. There is an outside chance we will be discussing whether his contract allows him to be sent to the AHL....welcome to Flyerland.

[OccamsRazor]

There is an outside chance we will be discussing whether his contract allows him to be sent to the AHL....welcome to Flyerland.

 

Oh yeah he can be sent down he doesn't have a NTC or NMC you'll just have to eat about 3.2 mill a year Yum.....please pass the salt!!!!! 

[fanaticV3.0]

Here, let me google that for you: http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/

 

But if only there was some place that could break that down by just who is a UFA and by position: http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=D&fa_type_id=2

 

I was seriously asking, because I haven't gotten a credible answer on that from anybody. The point is, I concur with your identification of their "needs" but that doesn't mean there is an immediate "fix" available.

 

Which has been the Flyers' problem. They have been insistent that the solution to their immediate problem was right in front of them for years.

 

Need a #1 Center? Sign him to an eight year contract, give him a NMC and then complain he's not performing as a wing two years later when the two centers you had just drafted were pushing for 1/2 line duty. Buy him out.

 

Need a goalie? Sign a guy to a nine-year, $56M deal with a no movement clause. Blow up your team to allow the cap space to work. Be amazed things are a disaster two years later when you buy the goalie out.

 

Need a puck moving defenseman? Sign a 35-year-old to a four year deal. After resigning your 38-year-old defenceman for $6M (with a NMC). 

 

Have a top six winger and top pair defenceman coming up as a UFA? Let them walk and chase after two guys who said they didn't want to come here. Then throw $68 Million in signing bonuses at an RFA. Come away with nothing.

 

I'm not asking "who" to be a jerk about it, I'm asking because that's the next step in the discussion. We all agree that they need a true #1 D. I don't know anyone who doesn't believe that.

 

But stating the problem is a lot easier than answering it.

 

When it comes to a Top Six forward. Honestly, I don't know where VLC fits into the lineup  They simply don't need him at center and he simply isn't a wing. But he's here and we'll have to get used to it.

 

http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=F&fa_type_id=2

 

Do they throw the bank at Vanek? Will they take a shot at an Iginla or Heatley? Moulson?

 

Danny Cleary will be available...

 

There was a time I would have gone after guys like Komasarick or Orpik, but being that they are over 30 now, and players over 30 are the devil, I don't know if I'd bother. I'm not saying they are #1's, but decent players I would have been interested in.

 

I have no idea who is on the market as far as trades are concerned, so that's a possibility too. If there's any truth to the rumors the Jets might be interested in moving Kane, I'd be interested in finding out what they are looking for. He's on a garbage team and just rotting away there imo.

 

The players they need might not even be available yet. It doesn't have to be this off season that they go out and make a big splash. I don't know when it is going to happen, but an opportunity is going to present itself. In the last sevearal years they've gone after at least 3 #1 defensemen (Weber, Timonen, and Pronger) and were able to land two of them. Something is eventually going to happen and I'm ok with it if it's not this upcoming off season.

[radoran]

There was a time I would have gone after guys like Komasarick or Orpik, but being that they are over 30 now, and players over 30 are the devil, I don't know if I'd bother. I'm not saying they are #1's, but decent players I would have been interested in.

 

I have no idea who is on the market as far as trades are concerned, so that's a possibility too. If there's any truth to the rumors the Jets might be interested in moving Kane, I'd be interested in finding out what they are looking for. He's on a garbage team and just rotting away there imo.

 

The players they need might not even be available yet. It doesn't have to be this off season that they go out and make a big splash. I don't know when it is going to happen, but an opportunity is going to present itself. In the last sevearal years they've gone after at least 3 #1 defensemen (Weber, Timonen, and Pronger) and were able to land two of them. Something is eventually going to happen and I'm ok with it if it's not this upcoming off season.

 

Just for the record, that "garbage team" has one fewer point than the Flyers, playing in the Central where the two leading teams have more points than the Penguins.

 

And, I would just disagree that "it doesn't have to be this offseason" if only because, for the Flyers, it always has to be "this offseason" to fix a problem.

 

Timonen came to the Flyers in 2007.

[fanaticV3.0]

Just for the record, that "garbage team" has one fewer point than the Flyers, playing in the Central where the two leading teams have more points than the Penguins.

 

And, I would just disagree that "it doesn't have to be this offseason" if only because, for the Flyers, it always has to be "this offseason" to fix a problem.

 

Timonen came to the Flyers in 2007.

 

So what? I'm not saying we're some great team, but where would you rather play if given the choice? Which team do you think projects better in the next few years? Winnipeg is thin up front. They've got a few good players, but not much depth. Their 3rd leading scorer is a defenseman. I'll take Kane on this roster over Winnipeg's any day.

 

And Pronger came in 09 and they pursued Weber in 2012. That's a pretty solid track record as far as going after impact defensemen goes. It's not like they went after Timonen and just gave up.

[radoran]

So what? I'm not saying we're some great team, but where would you rather play if given the choice? Which team do you think projects better in the next few years? Winnipeg is thin up front. They've got a few good players, but not much depth. Their 3rd leading scorer is a defenseman. I'll take Kane on this roster over Winnipeg's any day.

 

And Pronger came in 09 and they pursued Weber in 2012. That's a pretty solid track record as far as going after impact defensemen goes. It's not like they went after Timonen and just gave up.

 

They also "pursued" Suter. I completely concur that they will continue to "pursue" top defensemen. That's part of the problem. They are always pursuing and rarely doing anything internally.

 

WRT Kane, who do you give up to get Kane? What does Winnipeg want for him? He's signed for four more seasons at $5.25M. Winnipeg being "thin up front," why would they deal one of their top forwards?

 

Primary point being that "this roster" wouldn't be the same once the pieces needed to land Kane were shipped out to get him.

 

And, quite frankly, I'm not so sure that the Flyers are "closer" to competing than the Jets are at this point. With the possible caveat that they play in a much crappier division.

[fanaticV3.0]

They also "pursued" Suter. I completely concur that they will continue to "pursue" top defensemen. That's part of the problem. They are always pursuing and rarely doing anything internally.

 

WRT Kane, who do you give up to get Kane? What does Winnipeg want for him? He's signed for four more seasons at $5.25M. Winnipeg being "thin up front," why would they deal one of their top forwards?

 

Primary point being that "this roster" wouldn't be the same once the pieces needed to land Kane were shipped out to get him.

 

And, quite frankly, I'm not so sure that the Flyers are "closer" to competing than the Jets are at this point. With the possible caveat that they play in a much crappier division.

 

Who cares if they're internal or not? Richards and Carter were internal and won a cup after leaving, Giroux is internal and has now established himself as "good" but no longer worthy of being considered "great" by the fans. Pronger and Timonen were external and some of the best defensemen the team has ever had. Mason is not and he's the best thing they've had in net in years. Internal/external, the results for the organization over the last 35 years have been the same and it's had little to do with who drafted the players.

 

What do I look like The Amazing Kreskin? I have no idea why there are rumors they are looking to trade Kane, I just know that there are. As far as trading for him, I'd gladly give up Laughton. I'd rather keep the current roster (up front at least) intact. I would gladly part with Downie, but he's not going to be a bargaining chip much longer, and will likely end up just leaving. I don't hate Coburn or anything, but if someone wanted him thrown in a deal, I could be persuaded.

[aziz]

They also "pursued" Suter. I completely concur that they will continue to "pursue" top defensemen. That's part of the problem. They are always pursuing and rarely doing anything internally.

 

which is entirely normal.  duncan keith is the only franchise two way dman i can think of that was targeted on draft day and developed into the role.  chara was traded for multiple times.  weber was a happy late 2nd round pick up.  it is ok to pursue.  it is the highest percentage way to go about getting the guy you need.

[brelic]

Kane and Bogosian for Voracek and Luke Schenn.

Youth for youth. Change of scenery for 4 players that may or may not need it. Roughly fair in terms of value.

Make it happen, Hex.. uh, Homer.

[radoran]

Who cares if they're internal or not? Richards and Carter were internal and won a cup after leaving, Giroux is internal and has now established himself as "good" but no longer worthy of being considered "great" by the fans. Pronger and Timonen were external and some of the best defensemen the team has ever had. Mason is not and he's the best thing they've had in net in years. Internal/external, the results for the organization over the last 35 years have been the same and it's had little to do with who drafted the players.

 

What do I look like The Amazing Kreskin? I have no idea why there are rumors they are looking to trade Kane, I just know that there are. As far as trading for him, I'd gladly give up Laughton. I'd rather keep the current roster (up front at least) intact. I would gladly part with Downie, but he's not going to be a bargaining chip much longer, and will likely end up just leaving. I don't hate Coburn or anything, but if someone wanted him thrown in a deal, I could be persuaded.

 

Look, it's a simple question - what are you willing to give up?

 

Laughton and picks isn't doing it for me, if I'm Winnipeg. And if they are looking to deal Kane - and they very well might be - they will likely get a better deal in a heartbeat.

 

Let me just say that I'm entirely 100% in favor of giving up bubkus to get an impact player to add to the roster.

[radoran]

which is entirely normal.  duncan keith is the only franchise two way dman i can think of that was targeted on draft day and developed into the role.  chara was traded for multiple times.  weber was a happy late 2nd round pick up.  it is ok to pursue.  it is the highest percentage way to go about getting the guy you need.

 

I'm in no way against pursuing, but "pursuit" doesn't always address the issue. They have made a stab at it with the drafts of Ghost, Morin and Hagg - I'd like to see if they can pan out to be what they want.

 

"Pursuit" generally costs you something, usually a lot of somethings (see: Pronger, Chris). "Pursuing" Suter was subtraction by subtraction when they lost Carle. "Pursuing" Weber  would have meant losing the pick that became Morin - and four more on top of that.

 

I absolutely concur that the Flyers need an impact defenseman. I absolutely concur that they will be looking for one.

 

Asking the question of WHO is out there and WHAT they might cost isn't in any way shutting down the conversation, it is continuing it.

[fanaticV3.0]

Look, it's a simple question - what are you willing to give up?

 

Laughton and picks isn't doing it for me, if I'm Winnipeg. And if they are looking to deal Kane - and they very well might be - they will likely get a better deal in a heartbeat.

 

Let me just say that I'm entirely 100% in favor of giving up bubkus to get an impact player to add to the roster.

 

I already answered that.