Your opinion of fighting

[radoran]

I don't like the expectation that a coach needs to throw on his fighter just because the other team wants to start some crap. A coach should have the right to tell his players not engage in a fight, and the other team should be appropriately penalized for "gooing it up" so to speak. Carlyle should have every right to see a team throw out their fourth line, and try to get his scoring line out to generate more offense. Carlyle certainly should anticipate Scott wanting to fight, but there's no reason to anticipate him instigating a non-consensual fight against a non-fighting star forward. Why? Because it's against the rules to jump people who don't want to fight. Coaches/players get praised all the time for not engaging in fights when they are winning. Why is Carlyle held to a different standard here because Scott decided he was fighting no matter what anyone else decided, rules be damned?

 

I don't like the expectation that a player who "runs his mouth" needs to fight for it. If that were the case, there would be a lot more fighting in the NHL because lots of players yap constantly without any real intent to fight. Answering the bell for dirty hits and roughing people up, sure. Answering the bell for being angry at the other team's goon and stating that? No. Big difference there. If you want to punch someone in the face for talking smack, that's your perogative, but it's wrong.

 

I also don't like Kessel's stickwork, though. He had plenty of options to defend himself that don't involve using the stick, particularly when the immediate threat has been handled by another player and the target has his back to you.

 

Sure, the coach does - absolutely.

 

So then why is Kessel running his yap at Scott? If he was told to deescalate, to not engage - why is he engaging with the goon who's sole purpose on the ice is to escalate? This isn't a situation where Kessel is mouthing off to a Vanek or a Stafford - he's mouthing off to a goon. I don't know what else he was expecting to happen, because any "hockey fan" or "hockey player" worth his salt knew what was going on there.

 

Let Scott say whatever he wants. Let him try to goad you. Don't take the bait. Don't rise to the lure. Be the better player - which you are by far - and take your revenge by winning the game.

 

I go back to the infamous hit on Kapanen by Tucker in the Flyers/Leafs series. These days, some idiot would be trying to fight Tucker and play would stop. In that situation, JR took the right initiative and scored the game-winning, series-ending goal.

 

That's the best revenge I can possibly imagine.

[B21]

I tried to find a way to split it out, but gave up

 

Sometimes you just gotta let Wings fans be Wings fans....err - let boys be boys. 

 

Fighting is stupid.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0  If goons have already died, what is Colton Orr doing in the league?  He bring NOTHING to the table except the ability to fight, and there are 10-15 other examples. I agree the number of goons and staged fights has dropped...but dead and gone...not even close.

 

How can there be only (roughly) 10-15 other examples  but it be "not even close" to being dead and gone? You're talking about a very small number of players..

Edited March 13, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[Commander Clueless]

Sure, the coach does - absolutely.

 

So then why is Kessel running his yap at Scott? If he was told to deescalate, to not engage - why is he engaging with the goon who's sole purpose on the ice is to escalate? This isn't a situation where Kessel is mouthing off to a Vanek or a Stafford - he's mouthing off to a goon. I don't know what else he was expecting to happen, because any "hockey fan" or "hockey player" worth his salt knew what was going on there.

 

Let Scott say whatever he wants. Let him try to goad you. Don't take the bait. Don't rise to the lure. Be the better player - which you are by far - and take your revenge by winning the game.

 

I go back to the infamous hit on Kapanen by Tucker in the Flyers/Leafs series. These days, some idiot would be trying to fight Tucker and play would stop. In that situation, JR took the right initiative and scored the game-winning, series-ending goal.

 

That's the best revenge I can possibly imagine.

 

Really? I must not be worth much salts, then, because I never expected Scott to jump Kessel like that. I totally expected Scott to try to start a fight with someone, but not jump Kessel. To me, jumping a player because he said something mean to you when he has no interest in fighting in a pre-season game is the kind of fighting that the game can do without.

 

Kessel might not be worth his salt then either, because he looked fairly surprised when Scott dropped his gloves.

 

I don't think Kessel can be accused of "taking the bait" there, when it was Scott that reacted. Kessel's supposed yapping is completely irrelevant when Scott is the one that made the move. Like I said, players chatter back and forth all the time. It's not like Kessel was in his face and threatening him, because if that were the case I would agree with you.

 

Actually, what Kessel did might have been considered a good, penalty drawing move, if he didn't react by chopping Scott....

 

 

We also have no idea what Carlyle may or may not have told Kessel to do. He could very well have seen the 4th line, and thought "ooh, scoring chance!" and sent Kessel out without instructions of any kind.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[fanaticV3.0]

I think goons to be goons are pointless and take away from the game.  I think players who can actually play the game getting caught up in the moment and losing it with one another is a natural response to the physicality of the game having emotion added to it.  I'm all for it when it's clean and mutual.  I don't like the goons.  I don't like the expectation that a guy like Kessel should have to answer to a guy like Scott.  That's utterly ridiculous.  

 

If dirty players - who aren't fighters - don't want to have to put up with the possibility of fighting guys like Scott then maybe they should rethink their style of play. I have less of a problem with guys like Scott defending their teammates than I do with someone who is a cheapshot artists and refuses to fight.

[Commander Clueless]

If dirty players - who aren't fighters - don't want to have to put up with the possibility of fighting guys like Scott then maybe they should rethink their style of play. I have less of a problem with guys like Scott defending their teammates than I do with someone who is a cheapshot artists and refuses to fight.

 

Really? A cheap shot artist? Phil "soft as butter" Kessel?

 

I mean using his stick like that was certainly dirty and stupid, and deserving of a suspension...but a cheap shot artist? That's a little bit much, IMO. Kessel had done nothing in that game up to that point where he should be expected by anybody to answer the bell. Maybe after the stickwork you could argue that, but not before.

 

John Scott "defending his teammates" by jumping the nearest player? And the Leafs best player at that? That's not defending your teammates. That's goonery.

 

Call me a biased Leaf fan if you want, but yikes. I'm not excusing Kessel's dirty stickwork by any means, but neither am I siding with Scott for the crap he pulled.

[radoran]

We also have no idea what Carlyle may or may not have told Kessel to do. He could very well have seen the 4th line, and thought "ooh, scoring chance!" and sent Kessel out without instructions of any kind.

 

I agree with this - and it was likely what Carlyle was thinking. But it was you that said:

 

A coach should have the right to tell his players not engage in a fight, and the other team should be appropriately penalized for "gooing it up" so to speak.

 

And that was the context of my response - to your hypothetical.

[radoran]

Call me a biased Leaf fan if you want, but yikes. I'm not excusing Kessel's dirty stickwork by any means, but neither am I siding with Scott for the crap he pulled.

 

To be clear again, I don't think Scott belongs in the league. I'm not excusing his move - but it didn't surprise me.

 

That's the only thing Scott is on the roster to do.

[Commander Clueless]

I agree with this - and it was likely what Carlyle was thinking. But it was you that said:

 

 

 

And that was the context of my response - to your hypothetical.

 

Indeed. And Carlyle was well within his rights to not expect a fighter to jump his player, so I don't think he was at all in the wrong.

 

But my point in the hypothetical is that while Kessel's yapping may not have been the smartest decision for his personal safety, it should in no way cause him to be expected to engage in a fight. It in absolutely no way excuses Scott from jumping him, just as getting jumped in no way excuses the use of the stick as a weapon.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[Commander Clueless]

To be clear again, I don't think Scott belongs in the league. I'm not excusing his move - but it didn't surprise me.

 

That's the only thing Scott is on the roster to do.

 

Maybe excuses is the wrong word to use on my part.

 

But John Scott should not be expected to pull illegal moves like that. He's on the roster to fight and not play hockey, yes. But if he's on the roster to jump other players, then Buffalo's doing it wrong.

 

So yes, I was surprised he jumped Kessel. If he had, say, tried to pick a fight with someone - yeah, I'm not surprised. Totally expected that from the moment the tension started.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[B21]

@Commander Clueless

@radoran

 

I think you both have good points and are both right.  Somewhere is a hypothetical line that a players crosses..."this" much dirty stick work or "this" much yapping and you should be prepared...expected...to drop the gloves if challenged.  Guys yap and whack at each other all the time but there is a point when it goes too far and if you don't want to fight, don't go that far.  The most obvious example in situations like this is Sean Avery. 

 

Where that line is I'll leave for you two to continue the debate.  Sounds like Kessel crossed it here which is a bad idea with a guy like Scott.

[radoran]

@Commander Clueless

@radoran

 

I think you both have good points and are both right.  Somewhere is a hypothetical line that a players crosses..."this" much dirty stick work or "this" much yapping and you should be prepared...expected...to drop the gloves if challenged.  Guys yap and whack at each other all the time but there is a point when it goes too far and if you don't want to fight, don't go that far.  The most obvious example in situations like this is Sean Avery. 

 

Where that line is I'll leave for you two to continue the debate.  Sounds like Kessel crossed it here which is a bad idea with a guy like Scott.

 

I believe we went through this - I know I did - when it happened so I think our positions are pretty well established.

 

Buffalo is my "second team" (I'll be in WNY this weekend visiting friends for St. Paddy's), but even if it was the Jets and the Flames, I'd feel the same way if things went down the same way.

 

But if he's on the roster to jump other players, then Buffalo's doing it wrong.

 

I 100% totally believe Buffalo was doing it wrong.

 

And yet I was not surprised when it happened.

[Commander Clueless]

@Commander Clueless

@radoran

 

I think you both have good points and are both right.  Somewhere is a hypothetical line that a players crosses..."this" much dirty stick work or "this" much yapping and you should be prepared...expected...to drop the gloves if challenged.  Guys yap and whack at each other all the time but there is a point when it goes too far and if you don't want to fight, don't go that far.  The most obvious example in situations like this is Sean Avery. 

 

Where that line is I'll leave for you two to continue the debate.  Sounds like Kessel crossed it here which is a bad idea with a guy like Scott.

 

Agreed, but I'm not convinced Kessel crossed that line. We don't really know what he said, but he didn't get in his face or anything. He did put his hand up on Scott (almost looks like he was going for a bro hug or something) - not sure what that was about. But then he seems surprised and freaks out a bit when Scott drops the gloves on him.

 

If Kessel was roughing him, sure he has to expect a fight. But talking? I don't think anybody should look down on him for not fighting Scott, regardless of what questionable parentage he may have referenced in Scott's case.

 

Now hacking a guy with a stick...that's worthy of looking down on him for. Kind of irrelevant in a thread about fighting I guess.

[fanaticV3.0]

Really? A cheap shot artist? Phil "soft as butter" Kessel?

 

I mean using his stick like that was certainly dirty and stupid, and deserving of a suspension...but a cheap shot artist? That's a little bit much, IMO. Kessel had done nothing in that game up to that point where he should be expected by anybody to answer the bell. Maybe after the stickwork you could argue that, but not before.

 

John Scott "defending his teammates" by jumping the nearest player? And the Leafs best player at that? That's not defending your teammates. That's goonery.

 

Call me a biased Leaf fan if you want, but yikes. I'm not excusing Kessel's dirty stickwork by any means, but neither am I siding with Scott for the crap he pulled.

 

Three incidents in less than a week: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrgYmRBnjg. I don't feel even a little bit guilty about labeling him.

 

As far as Scott "jumping him", watch the video. Kessel is the one who reached for Scott first.

[Commander Clueless]

I believe we went through this - I know I did - when it happened so I think our positions are pretty well established.

 

Buffalo is my "second team" (I'll be in WNY this weekend visiting friends for St. Paddy's), but even if it was the Jets and the Flames, I'd feel the same way if things went down the same way.

 

 

 

 

I 100% totally believe Buffalo was doing it wrong.

 

And yet I was not surprised when it happened.

 

Very true, this is a bit of a rehashed discussion. But I believe it's a good thing to consider when talking about what place fighting has in the game. And IMO, what Scott did has no place in the game. There's a big difference between fighting between two teams that are pissed at each other, and non-consensual fights.

 

Maybe I just live a sheltered life watching mostly just Leaf games, but I never expect non-consensual fights to happen.

 

The Leafs aren't immune to this behaviour by any means, and Carlyle ain't no saint here. Colton Orr had an incident where he decked Brian Gionta that I didn't really approve of. It was a little different because he was swarmed by Habs players who didn't like his attempt at an open ice hit, and he decked the nearest player, but still...

 

I also found it funny. Wrong, but funny.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[Commander Clueless]

Three incidents in less than a week: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrgYmRBnjg. I don't feel even a little bit guilty about labeling him.

 

As far as Scott "jumping him", watch the video. Kessel is the one who reached for Scott first.

 

Watching the video you linked, you'll notice that Kessel's initial "reach" for Scott is not hostile. It almost looks like he's already on the defensive, as he's backing up from Scott a bit. The NHL even acknowledges that Kessel is acting in self defense in the video, not instigating.

 

Also from the video, Kessel has zero history prior to this season. He had two incidents with the Flyers, yes, but I don't think that's deserving of the cheap shot artist title. Certainly not commendable behaviour, but the guy has a clean history (according to the NHL) before that.

 

I suppose Giroux is a cheap shot artist too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyEyaiL1Tm8

 

And for the record, no I don't think he is a dirty player.

[radoran]

Watching the video you linked, you'll notice that Kessel's initial "reach" for Scott is not hostile. It almost looks like he's already on the defensive, as he's backing up from Scott a bit. The NHL even acknowledges that Kessel is acting in self defense in the video, not instigating.

 

That's kind of like saying that the guy was "just lighting a cigarette" while pumping gas when the explosion happened.

If you're Scott at that point, and Kessel's arm is coming up at you - what are you going to think about it? You're not going to wait - you're already primed up and ready. You're going to react.

 

Kessel shouldn't have been next to Scott, shouldn't have been jawing with him and certainly shouldn't be "defending" himself against a guy who hadn't dropped the gloves yet. (As far as the NHL video goes - that's the same group that bought Neal's line that he jumped into a player to "avoid" him).

 

Scott clearly doesn't "jump" an unsuspecting Kessel - he's reacting to Kessel's actions. Kessel is looking right at him.

 

Neither side comes out smelling like a rose in that confrontation, but either Phil Kessel is a complete moron (I might grant you this ) or he certainly should have known what was happening on the ice at that point.

 

Because just about everybody else did (even you admit you were expecting Scott to take on someone).

 

I had no respect for Scott and still don't. I lost any respect I might have had for Kessel.

[Commander Clueless]

That's kind of like saying that the guy was "just lighting a cigarette" while pumping gas when the explosion happened.

If you're Scott at that point, and Kessel's arm is coming up at you - what are you going to think about it? You're not going to wait - you're already primed up and ready. You're going to react.

 

Kessel shouldn't have been next to Scott, shouldn't have been jawing with him and certainly shouldn't be "defending" himself against a guy who hadn't dropped the gloves yet. (As far as the NHL video goes - that's the same group that bought Neal's line that he jumped into a player to "avoid" him).

 

Scott clearly doesn't "jump" an unsuspecting Kessel - he's reacting to Kessel's actions. Kessel is looking right at him.

 

Neither side comes out smelling like a rose in that confrontation, but either Phil Kessel is a complete moron (I might grant you this ) or he certainly should have known what was happening on the ice at that point.

 

Because just about everybody else did (even you admit you were expecting Scott to take on someone).

 

I had no respect for Scott and still don't. I lost any respect I might have had for Kessel.

 

When I use the word "jump", I mean one player initiating a fight when the other player is clearly not interested in said fight. Maybe not the best word to use on my part, but I can't really think of a better one.

 

Kessel raised his arm, yes, but not in a way to initiate a fight.

 

I'm not saying Kessel is completely innocent (or smart  ), but I do think people calling him out for not "backing up his actions" are being a little unreasonable. He in no way wanted that fight and I don't think he did anything that would provoke that strong of a reaction from Scott. According to Kessel in the interview afterwards, he said that Scott said he was going to jump him. Maybe that's what he's reacting to? No idea.

 

Kessel's dirty play came after the "fight" began, not before. Therefore I don't think he should in any way be expected to "back himself up" there. To his credit, he did fight (well...sort of fight. As fight as Kessel gets) with another Sabre after the hacking incident.

 

I completely understand people losing respect for Kessel for the hacking incident. Heck, I lost a good deal of respect for him there too. But what I don't understand is people losing respect for him for the events that took place before he transformed into Phil Bunyan.

[Commander Clueless]

Anyway, I suppose we should agree to disagree. These discussions brought back negative feelings about Kessel that I had almost left behind.

 

The on topic theme I guess is that I don't fully agree with the "players policing themselves" notion. I think that cheap shots and dirty plays should be policed by the league, and anything that the teams do on the ice to get revenge is just gravy. For the most part, the league does this. They aren't great at it maybe, but they do it.

 

Problem with might makes right is that the "mightier" team in terms of toughness may have been the problem to begin with.

 

Still, I enjoy fighting when it doesn't detract from the game. It makes rivalries more intense too. I don't think hockey would be the same sport without it.

 

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit, yave.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[yave1964]

Anyway, I suppose we should agree to disagree. These discussions brought back negative feelings about Kessel that I had almost left behind.

 

The on topic theme I guess is that I don't fully agree with the "players policing themselves" notion. I think that cheap shots and dirty plays should be policed by the league, and anything that the teams do on the ice to get revenge is just gravy. For the most part, the league does this. They aren't great at it maybe, but they do it.

 

Problem with might makes right is that the "mightier" team in terms of toughness may have been the problem to begin with.

 

Still, I enjoy fighting when it doesn't detract from the game. It makes rivalries more intense too. I don't think hockey would be the same sport without it.

 

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit, yave.

No not hijacked a bit, very interesting subject.

[Polaris922]

Kessel did no wrong until engaged by Scott. Scott is a (expletive) who should be in the ECHL, not the NHL.

Carlyle also put that line out there to diffuse the situation, just like many coaches do successfully quite often. Scott has no honor though and goes after a guy my 13 year old could probably take.

That's what's wrong with "policing" by players. There's no standard, no guideline... "The code" is dead. Thornton proved that. If Kessel had been instigating Scott prior to that shift and took a beating for it, fine, he asked for it. But the fact is that Kessel hadn't done a damn thing to deserve Scott, or anyone else's attention. He was guilty by association, and that's 100% malarkey.

[Lightning fan]

I don't mind fighting at all. What I plainly dislike are staged fights and goons whose sole purpose is to punch faces.

[fanaticV3.0]

Watching the video you linked, you'll notice that Kessel's initial "reach" for Scott is not hostile. It almost looks like he's already on the defensive, as he's backing up from Scott a bit. The NHL even acknowledges that Kessel is acting in self defense in the video, not instigating.

 

Also from the video, Kessel has zero history prior to this season. He had two incidents with the Flyers, yes, but I don't think that's deserving of the cheap shot artist title. Certainly not commendable behaviour, but the guy has a clean history (according to the NHL) before that.

 

I suppose Giroux is a cheap shot artist too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyEyaiL1Tm8

 

And for the record, no I don't think he is a dirty player.

 

Not hostile, lol.  What was he trying to do, brush dandruff off Scott's shoulder? You put your hands on anyone in real life, you shouldn't be surprised if you get punched, let alone in a game where physicality is allowed. Not hostile, lol. How ridiculous. The only one you are fooling with that lame argument is yourself. 

 

Nobody got jumped in that fight, least of all Kessel.

 

I don't know. Has he done it more than once or is it an isolated incident? I wouldn't hesitate to call a Flyer dirty just because he's a Flyer.

[Commander Clueless]

Not hostile, lol.  What was he trying to do, brush dandruff off Scott's shoulder? You put your hands on anyone in real life, you shouldn't be surprised if you get punched, let alone in a game where physicality is allowed. Not hostile, lol. How ridiculous. The only one you are fooling with that lame argument is yourself. 

 

Nobody got jumped in that fight, least of all Kessel.

 

I don't know. Has he done it more than once or is it an isolated incident? I wouldn't hesitate to call a Flyer dirty just because he's a Flyer.

 

No, I don't think he was trying to brush dandruff off. When I say "not hostile", I mean he's not pushing him around and getting in his face - he's rather passive (if that was a roughing attempt, it was pretty pathetic  ). I don't see how that can be interpreted as Kessel starting it. Scott drops his gloves and goes straight after him.

 

No idea what their discussion was about or why he did what he did, but "brushing" his hand against Scott is not a "hostile" action, in the sense that anybody would interpret it as the beginning of a consensual fight. If you think Kessel was starting a fight there, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think an enforcer going after a non-fighting scorer like that is EVER right, barring that scorer throwing a big cheap shot. I gave the example of Colton Orr jumping Brian Gionta, who was part of a group of Habs clearly engaged with Orr.

 

 

 

So because Kessel got "fancy" with his stick in two games, he should be considered a cheap shot artist after a clean record prior to that? Especially with nobody getting hurt? Don't think so. I don't think he's an angel or anything, but my point was a lot of players make dirty plays when they are pissed off.

 

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion of course.

[flyerrod]

Oh - and Orpik? B-b-b-b-b-the Pens! Not a dirty player.

 

I think Sean Couturier will disagree with you.....Sure did not take long to show his colors....