Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 They lost Hartnell's sandpaper in favour of Umberger's versatility - let's call it a wash. I just spit up in my mouth. Hartnell was moved for one reason and one reason alone- to save cap 4 years from now. We bash Homer on idiotic moves, but hextall screwed the pooch on this one. You want to save cap 4 years from now, fine. Trade hartnell at the trade deadline and get some picks in a stocked draft. Swapping Hamburglar for Hartnell just to save a couple of years on the cap is just flat out moronic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Someone else listed problem children on other teams. Kane, for example. Somehow he's still there and has two rings. They didn't lock him in a basement or take away his XBox or anything, but somehow they got him to tone it down just a tad. not for nothing, but toews played a factor, there, i think. kane was the hot shot kid with behavioral problems, but they had captain serious to balance things. if carter and richards were really with-it kids who provided some kind of counterpoint to lupul and upshall raising hell, i think things might've played out differently. as it was, you had the entire young leadership core involved (with ultra softspoken simon gagne and daniel briere being softspoken). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Trade hartnell at the trade deadline and get some picks in a stocked draft. they couldn't. hartnell is terrible and paid at least twice what he is worth. no one was giving up picks to take on years of him and his salary. the only thing anyone was going to give up was their own problem child. it was always going to be suspect goods coming the other way. so, the flyers moved 20 goal scoring hartnell for 18 goal scoring umberger, freed some long term cap hit and added roster flexibility. definitely moronic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 18 goal scoring umberger dont forget you said 30 for Umbie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 not for nothing, but toews played a factor, there, i think. kane was the hot shot kid with behavioral problems, but they had captain serious to balance things. if carter and richards were really with-it kids who provided some kind of counterpoint to lupul and upshall raising hell, i think things might've played out differently. as it was, you had the entire young leadership core involved (with ultra softspoken simon gagne and daniel briere being softspoken). That's definitely valid. But where does the blame for that construction lie? And what did shipping them all out do? I'm not trying to revisit any one move among them, but in totality it still kind of goes with what I've been saying: there doesn't seem to be any thought or plan to bring kids along. They want 22 year old bodies with 35 year old maturity. And when the 22 year old doesn't seem ready to buy a Jitterbug cell phone, they ship him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 That's definitely valid. But where does the blame for that construction lie? And what did shipping them all out do? I'm not trying to revisit any one move among them, but in totality it still kind of goes with what I've been saying: there doesn't seem to be any thought or plan to bring kids along. They want 22 year old bodies with 35 year old maturity. And when the 22 year old doesn't seem ready to buy a Jitterbug cell phone, they ship him off. Could not have said it better myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 hartnell is terrible and paid at least twice what he is worth. no one was giving up picks to take on years of him and his salary. the only thing anyone was going to give up was their own problem child. it was always going to be suspect goods coming the other way. Are you being tongue-in-cheek? I mean if I am going to play this game, we traded terrible for even more terrible to save two years of salary / cap hit?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 kane was the hot shot kid with behavioral problems, but they had captain serious to balance things. His mom also moved to Chicago and he lived with her when he first got there. It's too bad the Flyers don't seem to have anyone who can be "captain serious" or help developing players. Or something. Also fairly incredible that the same year they "had" to trade Lupul and Upshall because they were completely out of control and Crater and Richards were actively aiding and abetting them that they decided to give Richards the C at the start of the season after signing him to a 12-year deal and then gave the irresponsible Crater an 11-year deal two years later. Crater also somehow managed the best statistical season of his career in 08-09 while partying his ass off in Old City with Lupul and Upshall before they got traded. Oddly enough, so did Richards. they couldn't. hartnell is terrible and paid at least twice what he is worth. no one was giving up picks to take on years of him and his salary. the only thing anyone was going to give up was their own problem child. it was always going to be suspect goods coming the other way. so, the flyers moved 20 goal scoring hartnell for 18 goal scoring umberger, freed some long term cap hit and added roster flexibility. definitely moronic. Amazing how many 20/50 guys are just "terrible" in this league. I'm no Hartnell fan and absolutely concur that his contract was Homerian in scope, but to suggest he was "terrible" is a serious over-exaggeration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 we traded terrible for even more terrible to save two years of salary / cap hit?? That about sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 dont forget you said 30 for Umbie! if given the same roster spot/linemates as hartnell? yeah, i think he'd probably be pretty close. the guy scored 18 last season skating with nick folingo, artem anisimov, mark letestu....what kind of bump do you think he'd get from getting first unit PP time and skating regular shifts with giroux and voracek? meanwhile, hartnell did skate with those two, did get 1st unit PP time, and he managed all of two goals more. so, again, not seeing this wide separation between the two, the one that made the trade moronic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 doesn't seem ready to buy a Jitterbug cell phone, they ship him off. Dense does not aptly express my brain. WTF is a JItterbug cell phone and can i get one for my 3 y/o daughter??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 That's definitely valid. But where does the blame for that construction lie? And what did shipping them all out do? I'm not trying to revisit any one move among them, but in totality it still kind of goes with what I've been saying: there doesn't seem to be any thought or plan to bring kids along. They want 22 year old bodies with 35 year old maturity. And when the 22 year old doesn't seem ready to buy a Jitterbug cell phone, they ship him off. i'm with you, just saying the dynamic was different in chicago, philly didn't deal with the same situation. that isn't to say they dealt with the situation they had well, just the whole thing was different. it looks to me like the franchise is always trying to reinvent itself overnight. "this isn't working, we need a new direction, let's shake things up...but it had better work out right away." rather than adding carter, richards, etc, to a roster of sharp and keith and hossa, etc, they moved all of those guys out of the way, handed over the reigns, and then freaked when the cart went into a ditch. shipped all of THOSE guys out, handed over the reigns to the next (and current) kids. this has been going on since at least as far back as lindros. kane and toews went into a team that still had no real hope of anything. went in soft, found their footing, and as they came more and more up to speed, the team's and fanbase's hope grew along with them. the flyers' kids never have that kind of curve available. gagne was the last kid to be allowed to figure things out while older guys did the heavy lifting, at least that i can remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 if given the same roster spot/linemates as hartnell? yeah, i think he'd probably be pretty close. the guy scored 18 last season skating with nick folingo, artem anisimov, mark letestu....what kind of bump do you think he'd get from getting first unit PP time and skating regular shifts with giroux and voracek? meanwhile, hartnell did skate with those two, did get 1st unit PP time, and he managed all of two goals more. so, again, not seeing this wide separation between the two, the one that made the trade moronic. Meanwhile, Hartnell has 4 pts in 5 games and a -2, while our terrific addition (hamburglar) has 1 pt and a -6 in 6 games. Lets play projection: Hartnell over 82 games: 65pts Hamburglar over 82 games: 13pts Looks pretty good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Lets play projection: Hartnell over 82 games: 65pts Hamburglar over 82 games: 13pts Looks pretty good to me. let's play it some more, and then tell me if you think these <10 games played projections mean anything at all. like, at all. brock nelson over 82 games: 109pts patrick marleau over 82 games: 105pts, but a -82 james neal over 82 games: 27pts patrick maroon over 82 games: 82pts john scott over 82 games: 27pts and no penalty minutes at all t.j. oshie over 82 games: 0pts filip foresberg over 82 games: 68pts and a +95 oliver ekman-larsson over 82 games: -98 andrej meszaros over 82 games: -131 rick nash over 82 games: 105pts with 93 goals those last three would involve new records. how much would you like to bet that none of those moronic (to borrow a phrase) projections come even close to true by mid april? i mean, flyers fans have been upset about patrick sharp and justin williams, imagine how angry we are all going to be when patrick maroon ends up with those 82 points this season. how did we let such an offensive monster get away, just look at those first three games! also: the very scientific projections-after-6-games technique for giroux's 82 game campaign after 6 games last season: 1 point, -41. actual result: 86pts, +7 it was close, but the technique missed the mark by a little bit. need to factor in the margin of error on this stuff, like +/-800%. actually, in giroux's case, it was 8600%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 andrej meszaros over 82 games: -131 This doesn't seem so outlandish to me As I said to fanatic on another thread, projecting based upon less than 10 games is, in fact, moronic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 This doesn't seem so outlandish to me As I said to fanatic on another thread, projecting based upon less than 10 games is, in fact, moronic. ha, i was re-reading the post after my edit, and that one did stick out as possibly accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 if given the same roster spot/linemates as hartnell? yeah, i think he'd probably be pretty close. the guy scored 18 last season skating with nick folingo, artem anisimov, mark letestu....what kind of bump do you think he'd get from getting first unit PP time and skating regular shifts with giroux and voracek?meanwhile, hartnell did skate with those two, did get 1st unit PP time, and he managed all of two goals more. so, again, not seeing this wide separation between the two, the one that made the trade moronic.Can you send some of what you are smoking to me? That must be good **** man.... No way he scores 30 if he were playing with Crosby!And 8 goals were on the power play.... And right now he should not even be considered for the first Pp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 not for nothing, but toews played a factor, there, i think. kane was the hot shot kid with behavioral problems, but they had captain serious to balance things. if carter and richards were really with-it kids who provided some kind of counterpoint to lupul and upshall raising hell, i think things might've played out differently. as it was, you had the entire young leadership core involved (with ultra softspoken simon gagne and daniel briere being softspoken). I really think things would have been different had Pronger not arrived after Mike and Jeff. He would have been established as the unilateral leader and would not have been questioned. As it was, it appeared the Chris was there to *fix* things, which I'm sure rubbed some the wrong way, and ultimately lead to the trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 I just spit up in my mouth. Hartnell was moved for one reason and one reason alone- to save cap 4 years from now. We bash Homer on idiotic moves, but hextall screwed the pooch on this one. You want to save cap 4 years from now, fine. Trade hartnell at the trade deadline and get some picks in a stocked draft. Swapping Hamburglar for Hartnell just to save a couple of years on the cap is just flat out moronic. I wasn't talking about the contract or anything else - only answering the question as to how this team this year can be worse than the team last year. The Hartnell for Umberger swap did nothing to help the team on the ice, which is why I said it was a wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 As I said to fanatic on another thread, projecting based upon less than 10 games is, in fact, moronic. Agreed. So to circle jerk this around, Hamburglar better than Hartnell?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Dense does not aptly express my brain. WTF is a JItterbug cell phone and can i get one for my 3 y/o daughter???LOL it's a dumbed down cell phone marketed specifically for senior citizens. Apparently it texts really loud, repeats itself several times in a very short period of time and then completely forgets the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Agreed. So to circle jerk this around, Hamburglar better than Hartnell?? I didn't and don't like the trade. I may four years from now. But I don't now. And the gaping hole at LW on the top line isn't something Umburglar can fill. At least HartnellDown somewhat adequately filled that role. I haven't seen Umburglar adequately do much of anything so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I wasn't talking about the contract or anything else - only answering the question as to how this team this year can be worse than the team last year. Sorry if I came off condescending. For me, I would rather haver Hartnell. Sucks as he may, he does not suck as much as Hamburglar. He also was a leader in the d' room. At the end of the day, I would have just preferred to trade him at the trade deadline for a 2nd (high) pick and be done with it. The flyers did / don't need the services of hamburglar any more than Hartnell. Just that hartnells value at the trade line is higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 LOL it's a dumbed down cell phone marketed specifically for senior citizens. Apparently it texts really loud, repeats itself several times in a very short period of time and then completely forgets the conversation. sounds perfect for my daughter and wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I didn't and don't like the trade. I may four years from now. But I don't now. And the gaping hole at LW on the top line isn't something Umburglar can fill. At least HartnellDown somewhat adequately filled that role. I haven't seen Umburglar adequately do much of anything so far... And there-in lies the rub. Other than 2 years of cap savings. Hartnell is not going to get any faster- yet neither is Hamburglar. The off-ice intangibles were / are enough for me (as couch GM) to keep hartnell- at least until something better comes down the road than Hamburglar. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. This team is not going to do anything for another three years. I guess I just had higher expectations on the return for moving Hartnell. He is a guy that for a team making a push for the playoffs / cup, can provide some skills. I can't say the same for Hamburglar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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