ScottM Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Has a defenceman ever won the Hart trophy? Why doesn't the league start awarding the Hart trophy to defencemen? Clearly they're more important to their team's success than any one forward is these days. [end soap box] How far back are you willing to go? Herb Gardiner won it in 1927, Eddie Shore won it four times (1933, 1935, 1936, 1938), Babe Siebert won it in 1937, Ebbie Goodfellow won it in 1940, Tommy Anderson won it in 1942, and Babe Pratt won it in 1944, plus the wins by Orr and Pronger already mentioned. So, apparently, through the mid-40's, defensemen had a perfectly good shot at winning the Hart. It makes you wonder what happened to change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 How far back are you willing to go? Herb Gardiner won it in 1927, Eddie Shore won it four times (1933, 1935, 1936, 1938), Babe Siebert won it in 1937, Ebbie Goodfellow won it in 1940, Tommy Anderson won it in 1942, and Babe Pratt won it in 1944, plus the wins by Orr and Pronger already mentioned. So, apparently, through the mid-40's, defensemen had a perfectly good shot at winning the Hart. It makes you wonder what happened to change that. Exactly. Once you get into the 80's up until now, it basically goes hand in hand with the Art Ross trophy. Most teams value a #1 defenceman more highly than a #1 forward, so it stands to reason that defencemen should be winning the Hart trophy a lot more frequently than they currently do. Ditto for goalies. To me, unless you have a forward that is head and shoulders above the rest, and has 50+ goals, 100+ points, then they shouldn't even be considered for the Hart trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 How far back are you willing to go? Herb Gardiner won it in 1927, Eddie Shore won it four times (1933, 1935, 1936, 1938), Babe Siebert won it in 1937, Ebbie Goodfellow won it in 1940, Tommy Anderson won it in 1942, and Babe Pratt won it in 1944, plus the wins by Orr and Pronger already mentioned. So, apparently, through the mid-40's, defensemen had a perfectly good shot at winning the Hart. It makes you wonder what happened to change that. They started awarding the Norris in 1954. Since then only Orr and Pronger have won it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 They started awarding the Norris in 1954. Since then only Orr and Pronger have won it.Funny that the only other defenseman that won the hart besides orr is pronger...i can think of many defenseman better than pronger yet they dont have a hart.. Although pronger deserved his, Maybe Potvin or Bourque could have won a hart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Once you get into the 80's up until now, it basically goes hand in hand with the Art Ross trophy. Which is garbage. We need to replace the voters. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 @ScottM@WordsOfWisdom Actually, in the last 25 years the Hart and Art Ross winners have differed 13 times. That's over half. The 1980's was basically Gretzky across the board. Here are the years where a different player won... (Art Ross / Hart) 12-13 - St. Louis / Ovechkin10-11 - D. Sedin / C. Perry08-09 - Malkin / Ovechkin01-02 - Iginla / Thedore00-01 - Jagr / Sakic99-00 - Jagr / Pronger97-98 - Jagr / Hasek96-97 - Lemieux / Hasek94-95 - Jagr / Lindros93-94 - Gretzky / Fedorov91-92 - Lemieux / Messier90-91 - Gretzky / Hull89-90 - Gretzky / Messier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 @ScottM@WordsOfWisdom Actually, in the last 25 years the Hart and Art Ross winners have differed 13 times. That's over half. The 1980's was basically Gretzky across the board. Here are the years where a different player won... (Art Ross / Hart) 12-13 - St. Louis / Ovechkin10-11 - D. Sedin / C. Perry08-09 - Malkin / Ovechkin01-02 - Iginla / Thedore00-01 - Jagr / Sakic99-00 - Jagr / Pronger97-98 - Jagr / Hasek96-97 - Lemieux / Hasek94-95 - Jagr / Lindros93-94 - Gretzky / Fedorov91-92 - Lemieux / Messier90-91 - Gretzky / Hull89-90 - Gretzky / MessierWhat made Hull win the MVP in 90-91? Sure, Hull ad 86 goals and 130 points but he also had Adam oates who also reached 100 points as well. Gretzky has over 30 (160 more points than hull in that year and the next closest player on Gretzky's team has 90... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 What made Hull win the MVP in 90-91? Sure, Hull ad 86 goals and 130 points but he also had Adam oates who also reached 100 points as well. Gretzky has over 30 (160 more points than hull in that year and the next closest player on Gretzky's team has 90... Hull had 35 more goals than the guy who finished 2nd. That's more impressive than Gretzky having 32 assists over the guy who finished 2nd in that category. Gretzky didn't have slouches as linemates, either (Luc Robitaille and Tomas Sandstrom). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hull had 35 more goals than the guy who finished 2nd. That's more impressive than Gretzky having 32 assists over the guy who finished 2nd in that category. Gretzky didn't have slouches as linemates, either (Luc Robitaille and Tomas Sandstrom). MVP is the award for most VALUABLE TO THEIR TEAM. Gretzky had 70 more points then the 2nd highest point producer on his team. Hull had 86 goals sure, but he also had Adam oates who had 90 assists and 115 points, Hull had 130 points. Hull had more help then Gretzky, which is proven, because when Oates leaves the ST Louis Blues, Hull goes from a 70 goal scorer to a 50 goal scorer, 20 goal drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 MVP is the award for most VALUABLE TO THEIR TEAM. Gretzky had 70 more points then the 2nd highest point producer on his team. Hull had 86 goals sure, but he also had Adam oates who had 90 assists and 115 points, Hull had 130 points. Hull had more help then Gretzky, which is proven, because when Oates leaves the ST Louis Blues, Hull goes from a 70 goal scorer to a 50 goal scorer, 20 goal drops. And no other player on the Blues had more than 27 goals. In fact, only 2 topped 20. Nearly 1 in 3 goals the Blues scored that year was by Hull. That's at least equally as impressive as Gretzky being 70 assists better than the next guy on the Kings. I'll say it's more impressive. At the end of the day, it's harder to score a goal than it is to get an assist so I see a 59 goal difference as a lot more "valuable" than a 70 assist difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hull had more help then Gretzky, which is proven, because when Oates leaves the ST Louis Blues, Hull goes from a 70 goal scorer to a 50 goal scorer, 20 goal drop. Yeah but the awards are based on your performance for that year - not your career. For that year, Hull was more valuable to the Blues than Gretzky was to the Kings. Not by much...but enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Yeah but the awards are based on your performance for that year - not your career. For that year, Hull was more valuable to the Blues than Gretzky was to the Kings. Not by much...but enough.Eh, i guess it depends how much you favour goals to assists, i mean, I guess Ovechkin was the better player then Crosby in most years... since 50 goals>70 assists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Eh, i guess it depends how much you favour goals to assists, i mean, I guess Ovechkin was the better player then Crosby in most years... since 50 goals>70 assists As far as the Hart goes - it depends. How far ahead of the next guy is he? Did the team make the playoffs? +/-? At the end of the day, my argument works. OV has won 3 Harts. Crosby 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 As far as the Hart goes - it depends. How far ahead of the next guy is he? Did the team make the playoffs? +/-? At the end of the day, my argument works. OV has won 3 Harts. Crosby 2. Crosby has more half seasons then he does whole. Not really fair to Crosby ai? I agree with you to a certain extent though..goals>assists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 As far as the Hart goes - it depends. How far ahead of the next guy is he? Did the team make the playoffs? +/-? At the end of the day, my argument works. OV has won 3 Harts. Crosby 2. Also, Crosby has Malkin, but they dont play on the same line. Crosby by far has had worse linemates than Ovechkin. But Ovechkin has had worse teams then Crosby. So if you removed Malkin from the Penguins, Crosby would be in consideration for the Hart more so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Also, Crosby has Malkin, but they dont play on the same line. Crosby by far has had worse linemates than Ovechkin. But Ovechkin has had worse teams then Crosby. So if you removed Malkin from the Penguins, Crosby would be winning more Harts.Backstrom feeds Ovenchicken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Backstrom feeds Ovenchicken...Out of the 2, Ovechkin is obviously the better of the Duo, thats why i said Crosby has had worse linemates... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 @ScottM@WordsOfWisdom Actually, in the last 25 years the Hart and Art Ross winners have differed 13 times. That's over half. The 1980's was basically Gretzky across the board. Here are the years where a different player won... (Art Ross / Hart) 12-13 - St. Louis / Ovechkin10-11 - D. Sedin / C. Perry08-09 - Malkin / Ovechkin01-02 - Iginla / Thedore00-01 - Jagr / Sakic99-00 - Jagr / Pronger97-98 - Jagr / Hasek96-97 - Lemieux / Hasek94-95 - Jagr / Lindros93-94 - Gretzky / Fedorov91-92 - Lemieux / Messier90-91 - Gretzky / Hull89-90 - Gretzky / Messier Oh. Interesting. I see a lot of centermen on that list though. I think the Hart trophy should be decided a lot by the era in which the game is being played. Right now it's a low scoring era again, so goalies and defencemen should be winning the majority of the Hart trophies because they're most valuable to their team. In the high flying 80's, it makes sense to give it to a forward that is racking up 200 points in a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Oh. Interesting. I see a lot of centermen on that list though. I think the Hart trophy should be decided a lot by the era in which the game is being played. Right now it's a low scoring era again, so goalies and defencemen should be winning the majority of the Hart trophies because they're most valuable to their team. In the high flying 80's, it makes sense to give it to a forward that is racking up 200 points in a season. Even in the 90s, a prime Gretzky would still be winning MVPs. A gretzky past his prime still managed to put up 130-160 point range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Also, Crosby has Malkin, but they dont play on the same line. Crosby by far has had worse linemates than Ovechkin. But Ovechkin has had worse teams then Crosby. So if you removed Malkin from the Penguins, Crosby would be in consideration for the Hart more so Nah. I don't think voters take that into account to be honest with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Oh. Interesting. I see a lot of centermen on that list though. I think the Hart trophy should be decided a lot by the era in which the game is being played. Right now it's a low scoring era again, so goalies and defencemen should be winning the majority of the Hart trophies because they're most valuable to their team. In the high flying 80's, it makes sense to give it to a forward that is racking up 200 points in a season. Agree except that "era" thing can work both ways - like scoring 100 points in this generation. That's all semantics to me. Plus you need to ask - why is this era so much more "defensive"? Things like bigger goalie pads, more clutching and grabbing going uncalled, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 @ScottM@WordsOfWisdom Actually, in the last 25 years the Hart and Art Ross winners have differed 13 times. That's over half. The 1980's was basically Gretzky across the board. Here are the years where a different player won... (Art Ross / Hart) 12-13 - St. Louis / Ovechkin10-11 - D. Sedin / C. Perry08-09 - Malkin / Ovechkin01-02 - Iginla / Thedore00-01 - Jagr / Sakic99-00 - Jagr / Pronger97-98 - Jagr / Hasek96-97 - Lemieux / Hasek94-95 - Jagr / Lindros93-94 - Gretzky / Fedorov91-92 - Lemieux / Messier90-91 - Gretzky / Hull89-90 - Gretzky / Messier I did a bit of digging. You have to go all the way back to 2002 to find a Hart Trophy winner that didn't win the Art Ross and/or the Rocket Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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