Phil Kessel - Where do you see him going?

[WordsOfWisdom]

Ultimately what's going to happen is this:

• Kessel will be traded for a first round draft pick. No salary retention at all.
• Phaneuf will be traded for a draft pick(s) but not a first rounder. No salary retention at all.

 

The Leafs are starting over. They want prospects. The teams they are going to be dealing with are teams looking to add the final piece to their playoff puzzle. Kessel's NTC/NMC will be thrown out the window once he realizes the alternative is staying in Toronto and finishing dead last. Kessel is likely to end up on a team like Nashville or St. Louis (to put them over the top), and those teams don't mind dealing away prospects. They're looking to win now.

 

Kessel isn't going to Boston or LA or Chicago, etc. He can forget that fantasy. He's going to be moved to a team with plenty of cap space that is ready to contend. Ditto for Dion. 

[J0e Th0rnton]

Ultimately what's going to happen is this:

• Kessel will be traded for a first round draft pick. No salary retention at all.
• Phaneuf will be traded for a draft pick(s) but not a first rounder. No salary retention at all.

 

The Leafs are starting over. They want prospects. The teams they are going to be dealing with are teams looking to add the final piece to their playoff puzzle. Kessel's NTC/NMC will be thrown out the window once he realizes the alternative is staying in Toronto and finishing dead last. Kessel is likely to end up on a team like Nashville or St. Louis (to put them over the top), and those teams don't mind dealing away prospects. They're looking to win now.

 

Kessel isn't going to Boston or LA or Chicago, etc. He can forget that fantasy. He's going to be moved to a team with plenty of cap space that is ready to contend. Ditto for Dion. 

I dunno bud. Kessel will ultimately decide where he wants to go. Thus far he is saying he loves it there and wants to stay.

 

For whatever reason, the team has to work out a trade THEN ask the player to waive as a finalization move.

 

Remember the Heatley fiasco? Eventually Heatley demanded a trade from Ottawa, sat back, waited. They traded him to Edmonton, and he refused to waive, striking the trade down after it was reported as done.

 

The Panthers might be the best fit, but would he go there?

 

For whatever reason, Nashville is not a popular destination for players even when the team is playing good, although it looks like the best fit. The blues maybe. But then they would need to fit multiple 8 million dollar wingers under the cap.

 

Terasenko is about to get a huge raise to around 7-8 million. Backes and Lehtera will be UFA in a year, and Schwartz will be RFA. All due for raises.

[WordsOfWisdom]

I dunno bud. Kessel will ultimately decide where he wants to go. Thus far he is saying he loves it there and wants to stay.

 

For whatever reason, the team has to work out a trade THEN ask the player to waive as a finalization move.

 

Remember the Heatley fiasco? Eventually Heatley demanded a trade from Ottawa, sat back, waited. They traded him to Edmonton, and he refused to waive, striking the trade down after it was reported as done.

 

The Panthers might be the best fit, but would he go there?

 

For whatever reason, Nashville is not a popular destination for players even when the team is playing good, although it looks like the best fit. The blues maybe. But then they would need to fit multiple 8 million dollar wingers under the cap.

 

Terasenko is about to get a huge raise to around 7-8 million. Backes and Lehtera will be UFA in a year, and Schwartz will be RFA. All due for raises.

 

LOL. He was getting ripped pretty good by the media near the end of last season. Another month or two of that and he'll crack. 

 

The Heatley fiasco is an example of why the NHL should ban NTCs and NMCs. It hurts both player and team. If the Leafs can't make a deal with any team on that list, then Kessel stays in Toronto through the rebuild. If I'm a veteran player, why on earth would I want to be in Toronto right now? Call me in five years, but not today. Kessel won't see a sniff of playoff hockey if he stays here. 

[J0e Th0rnton]

LOL. He was getting ripped pretty good by the media near the end of last season. Another month or two of that and he'll crack. 

 

The Heatley fiasco is an example of why the NHL should ban NTCs and NMCs. It hurts both player and team. If the Leafs can't make a deal with any team on that list, then Kessel stays in Toronto through the rebuild. If I'm a veteran player, why on earth would I want to be in Toronto right now? Call me in five years, but not today. Kessel won't see a sniff of playoff hockey if he stays here. 

The players union will never allow it to be banned.

 

Some players absolutely HATE moving to a new city, or the idea of signing a hometeam discount only to find themselves traded to the worst team in the league in an icy environment. Having to put their kids in new school, buy houses, and all the fluff of getting used to a new area. A NTC usually comes with some sort of discount, or is the incentive for that player to sign with whoever signs him.

 

Effectively, it is like many other jobs. If you were a highly sought after businessman/specialist in your field and worked somewhere and they transferred you to a place you HATED, you can quit and look for another job in another city. Since you are a highly sought after businessman/Specialist in your field, you could easily find a job elsewhere and they would replace you with someone else. But NHL players a locked into a contract. It would be wrong to take away the one part of their contract that gives them some semblance of control over their career.

[WordsOfWisdom]

The players union will never allow it to be banned.

 

Some players absolutely HATE moving to a new city, or the idea of signing a hometeam discount only to find themselves traded to the worst team in the league in an icy environment. Having to put their kids in new school, buy houses, and all the fluff of getting used to a new area. A NTC usually comes with some sort of discount, or is the incentive for that player to sign with whoever signs him.

 

Effectively, it is like many other jobs. If you were a highly sought after businessman/specialist in your field and worked somewhere and they transferred you to a place you HATED, you can quit and look for another job in another city. Since you are a highly sought after businessman/Specialist in your field, you could easily find a job elsewhere and they would replace you with someone else. But NHL players a locked into a contract. It would be wrong to take away the one part of their contract that gives them some semblance of control over their career.

 

I should have been more specific. The NHL should ban selective NTCs and NMCs.

 

It should be all or nothing. Either the player can be moved to any team or the player cannot be moved at all. The player should not have the right to play "general manager" and choose his next location, unless he is a free agent, at which point he can sign with whoever he chooses. (At least in my book.) 

[J0e Th0rnton]

I should have been more specific. The NHL should ban selective NTCs and NMCs.

 

It should be all or nothing. Either the player can be moved to any team or the player cannot be moved at all. The player should not have the right to play "general manager" and choose his next location, unless he is a free agent, at which point he can sign with whoever he chooses. (At least in my book.) 

I kinda disagree, but to each his own

Having control of where you want to work is kind of a human right lol. If you are good enough a player to ask for a NTC/NMC, but leave the GM with the option of 8 teams in case you suddenly go downhill, it is kinda nice of you. I have no idea how they negotiate this stuff, but I suspect you get a bigger hometown discount for a full NMC than a partial one.

[WordsOfWisdom]

I kinda disagree, but to each his own

Having control of where you want to work is kind of a human right lol. If you are good enough a player to ask for a NTC/NMC, but leave the GM with the option of 8 teams in case you suddenly go downhill, it is kinda nice of you. I have no idea how they negotiate this stuff, but I suspect you get a bigger hometown discount for a full NMC than a partial one.

 

This is one of those "pro sports in no way reflects the life of the people that right was intended to protect" moments. 

 

As a hockey player, you earn the right to play anywhere when you become a free agent. When you sign a contract with a team, you belong to that team for the duration of that contract, and they can trade you anywhere.

 

Look at the military for example: You don't get to decide when or where you're deployed. You go where they tell you to go. With many other jobs, it's the same way. If they move to a different location, you either move with them or they let you go.

 

There has to be an understanding on the part of the players that when they decide to "work" for the NHL, the NHL has 30 "offices" in 30 different locations and with the enormous amount of money they are paying the player, ownership gets to decide which office the player will work in. Players always have the choice of not playing hockey for a living. Plenty of jobs at Wal-Mart for those that don't like travel. If you choose to play hockey for a living, then it comes with the understanding that you will be traveling and relocating frequently. That's the price to be paid for making that kind of money.

 

(I swear I would rule with an iron fist if I were running the league.) 

[luckylarry]

To begin Kessel is a great offensive talent, one of the best in the world for sure. However, he has some warts that limit him in the D-side of the game. Even with this, I see him ending up in a place where he can help sell the excitement of the game, which is the offensive side. I see him in Florida, Columbus or Arizona. He will sell tickets for sure in one of those markets

[RJ8812]

To begin Kessel is a great offensive talent, one of the best in the world for sure. However, he has some warts that limit him in the D-side of the game. Even with this, I see him ending up in a place where he can help sell the excitement of the game, which is the offensive side. I see him in Florida, Columbus or Arizona. He will sell tickets for sure in one of those markets

 

Bringing him to Arizona or Florida wont help them sell tickets 

[flyercanuck]

Bringing him to Arizona or Florida wont help them sell tickets 

 

 

No, but giving out free cookies to go along with the free beer, free hot dogs, free parking, free jerseys, free programs and free tickets will.

[RJ8812]

No, but giving out free cookies to go along with the free beer, free hot dogs, free parking, free jerseys, free programs and free tickets will.

 

considering they already tried that and it didn't help...I don't think the cookies will do it. Unless maybe they were grandma's homemade cookies 

[blocker]

Many years ago, a worker at a soap factory screwed up.  He forgot to turn off a machine that mixed up the fats and lye that constitute soap.   The result of that accident was Ivory soap.  Ivory was full of bubbles and unlike other soaps of the time, it floated.

 

Maybe Ivory would hire Phil.

[yave1964]

Full Kessel is not going anywhere. Untradeable contract for such a sloth. Babs and he should be fun to watch.

[92WickedHockey]

Full Kessel is not going anywhere. Untradeable contract for such a sloth. Babs and he should be fun to watch.

Interesting comment, but I'm sure when international tournaments roll around you're the first to pencil Kessel into either the 1st or 2nd line of the US National Team. He's been the most prolific American point producer in the past 3 NHL seasons and the 9th highest of all players past 3 season, all accomplished on a terrible team, imagine what he could do on a contender. What a sloth indeed 

 

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

[flyercanuck]

@92WickedHockey

 

Imagine what he could do if he tried when he didn't have the puck? There's no questioning the guys skill. His effort without the puck is what most people laugh at...and for that contract it's pretty disgusting.

[yave1964]

Interesting comment, but I'm sure when international tournaments roll around you're the first to pencil Kessel into either the 1st or 2nd line of the US National Team. He's been the most prolific American point producer in the past 3 NHL seasons and the 9th highest of all players past 3 season, all accomplished on a terrible team, imagine what he could do on a contender. What a sloth indeed 

 

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

8 million a year, 7 more years. If he is so good, keep him.

 

I usually try to add him in fantasy because his stock slips somewhat. He is a much better fantasy player than a real one. His scoring being his only real skill of value (granted a hugely important skill) makes him a fantasy God. Or at least it did until her signed the eight year contract and went tot he all you can eat dinner buffet to celebrate and never left.

 

 Would I like him on my team? Absolutely, no ifs and or buts. Would i want him for that contract? No way, no how, not even close. Toronto has been trying to get rid of him since before the ink was dry, suffering from buyers remorse. Put all the spin you want on how good he is, if he was so good Toronto would be telling teams no way no how would they trade him instead of asking who wants him.

 And the funny thing with Leaf fans in general, I am speaking in generalities here and not personally, while they would love to have him gone, they think he has some absurd value. If he was on a five year, 30 million dollar deal and coming off a season like he used to have before last year, absolutely he would have value. The best you can hope for is to a team to take the albatross of a contract off your hands and give you maybe fifty cents on the dollar. EIGHT MILLION A YEAR  for a fat scoring winger who slipped badly last year, not a lot of market for those type of players.

Pass.

[luckylarry]

Bringing him to Arizona or Florida wont help them sell tickets 

Having an exciting player, like Kessel, will sell tickets.  Why do you think his skills would not sell tickets? 

[luckylarry]

8 million a year, 7 more years. If he is so good, keep him.

 

I usually try to add him in fantasy because his stock slips somewhat. He is a much better fantasy player than a real one. His scoring being his only real skill of value (granted a hugely important skill) makes him a fantasy God. Or at least it did until her signed the eight year contract and went tot he all you can eat dinner buffet to celebrate and never left.

 

 Would I like him on my team? Absolutely, no ifs and or buts. Would i want him for that contract? No way, no how, not even close. Toronto has been trying to get rid of him since before the ink was dry, suffering from buyers remorse. Put all the spin you want on how good he is, if he was so good Toronto would be telling teams no way no how would they trade him instead of asking who wants him.

 And the funny thing with Leaf fans in general, I am speaking in generalities here and not personally, while they would love to have him gone, they think he has some absurd value. If he was on a five year, 30 million dollar deal and coming off a season like he used to have before last year, absolutely he would have value. The best you can hope for is to a team to take the albatross of a contract off your hands and give you maybe fifty cents on the dollar. EIGHT MILLION A YEAR  for a fat scoring winger who slipped badly last year, not a lot of market for those type of players.

Pass.

I'm not a huge Kessel fan either, but I disagree that he has little or no value.  Even with the contract, and the misgivings about his character I think he will return some assets for the Leafs.  It will be like the Luongo trade return, when Vancouver dumped his contract onto Florida.  The Leafs will retaining salary will be a key to his trade.

[yave1964]

@luckylarry

The Luongo deal is a perfect example. Thank you. The Canucks ate salary, and received back a pick, a bottom six forward and a good goalie prospect struggling to find himself in the NHL.

Is Luongo worth more than that? Absolutely, no questions asked yes, an emphatic yes.

Bobby Lu went for so little because of his contract. The Canucks received maybe fifty cents on the dollar for the asset that was Luongo.

Leaf fans seem to think they can trade Kessel and get someone to pay full market value. before signing that absurd contract it was possible, now, simply no way.

If the Leafs are willing to accept a 2nd, a good prospect and a NHL player, a second or third liner at best, and also agree to eat salary they may be able to get something done. Anything else is unrealistic.

I read an article yesterday speculating about Kessel coming to the Wings and stated that the asking price was Gus Nyquist, Anthony Mantha, Ryan Sproul and two first rounders. I nearly dropped my laptop laughing.

I become more and more frustrated with Leaf fans as time goes by, they rip on Kessel or Phaneuf and scream about their horrible contracts and then when rumors pop up that they may be traded, suddenly they act as if they are the most valuable pieces that any team can go after, trying to demand Crosby, Malkin, McDavid and The first pick in the draft for each of the next ten years. It is laughable.

I can see Kessel being dealt. The 'Yotes and Panthers are perfect trade partners. but getting OEL and the 'Yotes first or Barkov and Ekland is too ridiculous to comprehend.

[luckylarry]

@luckylarry

The Luongo deal is a perfect example. Thank you. The Canucks ate salary, and received back a pick, a bottom six forward and a good goalie prospect struggling to find himself in the NHL.

Is Luongo worth more than that? Absolutely, no questions asked yes, an emphatic yes.

Bobby Lu went for so little because of his contract. The Canucks received maybe fifty cents on the dollar for the asset that was Luongo.

Leaf fans seem to think they can trade Kessel and get someone to pay full market value. before signing that absurd contract it was possible, now, simply no way.

If the Leafs are willing to accept a 2nd, a good prospect and a NHL player, a second or third liner at best, and also agree to eat salary they may be able to get something done. Anything else is unrealistic.

I read an article yesterday speculating about Kessel coming to the Wings and stated that the asking price was Gus Nyquist, Anthony Mantha, Ryan Sproul and two first rounders. I nearly dropped my laptop laughing.

I become more and more frustrated with Leaf fans as time goes by, they rip on Kessel or Phaneuf and scream about their horrible contracts and then when rumors pop up that they may be traded, suddenly they act as if they are the most valuable pieces that any team can go after, trying to demand Crosby, Malkin, McDavid and The first pick in the draft for each of the next ten years. It is laughable.

I can see Kessel being dealt. The 'Yotes and Panthers are perfect trade partners. but getting OEL and the 'Yotes first or Barkov and Ekland is too ridiculous to comprehend.

I agree with your sentiments.  There are a number of teams that signed long term big money deals with players, who are now regretting those signings for sure.  Toronto had 3, and were able to dump Clarkson.  They still have Dion and Phil. 

[92WickedHockey]

8 million a year, 7 more years. If he is so good, keep him.

 

I usually try to add him in fantasy because his stock slips somewhat. He is a much better fantasy player than a real one. His scoring being his only real skill of value (granted a hugely important skill) makes him a fantasy God. Or at least it did until her signed the eight year contract and went tot he all you can eat dinner buffet to celebrate and never left.

 

 Would I like him on my team? Absolutely, no ifs and or buts. Would i want him for that contract? No way, no how, not even close. Toronto has been trying to get rid of him since before the ink was dry, suffering from buyers remorse. Put all the spin you want on how good he is, if he was so good Toronto would be telling teams no way no how would they trade him instead of asking who wants him.

 And the funny thing with Leaf fans in general, I am speaking in generalities here and not personally, while they would love to have him gone, they think he has some absurd value. If he was on a five year, 30 million dollar deal and coming off a season like he used to have before last year, absolutely he would have value. The best you can hope for is to a team to take the albatross of a contract off your hands and give you maybe fifty cents on the dollar. EIGHT MILLION A YEAR  for a fat scoring winger who slipped badly last year, not a lot of market for those type of players.

Pass.

Kessel is being paid the market standard for a player of his caliber, if you expected the Leafs to sign him to 5 or 6 million a year you're dreaming and clearly know nothing about the economics and market value of top scoring snipers in the NHL.

 

Kessel wouldn't have accepted a lowball like that from any team. So while you may enjoy to poke at his physical appearance the fact remains that he can produce, you may not be physically attracted to him but last time I checked hockey players aren't models, they are paid to produce not look like Hugo Boss models. Kessel has been among the top 10 point producers in the NHL in the past 3 seasons, naturally he will be getting Getzlaf, Perry, Giroux etc type money because he has consistently proven he can manufacture points.

 

With regards to this year it wasn't Kessel that slipped it was the Leafs that slipped, Hockey is a team game not an individual one, hard to score when the Leafs as a team couldn't get out of their own zone for 85% of the season. This isn't the NBA where LeBron James can single handily take a team to the final, in Hockey if you don't have a good supporting cast around great players they won't be as successful as they could have been, exhibit A - Mats Sundin.

 

I think you might be confused as to which sport we're talking about here. 

[yave1964]

Kessel is being paid the market standard for a player of his caliber, if you expected the Leafs to sign him to 5 or 6 million a year you're dreaming and clearly know nothing about the economics and market value of top scoring snipers in the NHL.

 

Kessel wouldn't have accepted a lowball like that from any team. So while you may enjoy to poke at his physical appearance the fact remains that he can produce, you may not be physically attracted to him but last time I checked hockey players aren't models, they are paid to produce not look like Hugo Boss models. Kessel has been among the top 10 point producers in the NHL in the past 3 seasons, naturally he will be getting Getzlaf, Perry, Giroux etc type money because he has consistently proven he can manufacture points.

 

With regards to this year it wasn't Kessel that slipped it was the Leafs that slipped, Hockey is a team game not an individual one, hard to score when the Leafs as a team couldn't get out of their own zone for 85% of the season. This isn't the NBA where LeBron James can single handily take a team to the final, in Hockey if you don't have a good supporting cast around great players they won't be as successful as they could have been, exhibit A - Mats Sundin.

 

I think you might be confused as to which sport we're talking about here.

I don't watch Basketball.

I appreciate the sentiment, I know that I tend to do the same thing as you, I get defensive/offensive when someone rips on Kronwall.

So keep Kessel. Pay him 8 million a year as a scoring winger. Oh, and you are wrong as can be, Kessel fell off the face of the Earth in the second half of the year, he bounced up and down the lines because of the teams frustration with him.

8 million a year for a goal scoring winger who brings nothing else to the table is excessive. Don't take my word for it, look around at the line of teams trying to get Kessel.

Overpaid, a bad rep. Nobody is going to give fair market value based off the bonehead contract. Maybe you are watching the wrong sport.

[yave1964]

@92WickedHockey

So in the interest of getting back towards civility, as a Leaf fan, what is your opinion of what they should do with Kessel? Should they:

A) trade him now for whatever you can and clear the cap space

B) keep him and use him as a cornerstone to build around

C) take a wait and see approach

Opinion?

[92WickedHockey]

@92WickedHockey

So in the interest of getting back towards civility, as a Leaf fan, what is your opinion of what they should do with Kessel? Should they:

A) trade him now for whatever you can and clear the cap space

B) keep him and use him as a cornerstone to build around

C) take a wait and see approach

Opinion?

I would like him to be moved only because you can't build a team around a winger, it doesn't work, you build around centres and even defencemen but not wingers. Kessel would bring back a big haul whether you like it or not, for a 27 year old who has been the 9th most productive player in the past 3 seasons, highest among American forwards the return will be a good one for the Leafs, and like I said The whole Team stopped producing since February, not just Kessel. Don't see how hard that is for your to grasp. 

 

I've come up with some comparisons to give people a better idea of where he stands when compared with some of the leagues best. Numbers are taken from the beginning of the 2010-2011 season up until the end of the 2014-2015 season.

Kessel 151G - 188A - 339Points - 376GP - Age 27 - CH 8Mil til 2022

.90Ppg & .40Gpg

P.Kane 129G - 198A - 327Points - 332GP - Age 26 - CH 10.5Mil til 2023

.98Ppg & .39Gpg

Toews 140G - 175A - 315Points - 343GP - Age 27 - CH 10.5Mil til 2023

.92ppg & .40gpg

Getzlaf 101G - 238A - 339Points - 347GP - Age 30 - CH 8.25Mil til 2021

.98ppg & .29gpg

Giroux 119G - 257A - 376Points - 370GP - Age 27 - 8.275 Mil til 2022

1.01ppg & .32gpg

Perry 178G - 153A - 331Points - 354GP - Age 30 - 8.625 Mil til 2022

.94ppg & .50gpg

Backstrom 76G - 239A - 315 Points - 331GP - Age 27 - 6.7 Mil til 2020

.95ppg & .23gpg

E.Staal 119G - 195A - 314 Points - 367GP - Age 30 - 8.25 Mil til 2016

.86ppg & .32gpg

PPG Leaders GPG Leaders

 

As you might now see, Kessel is being paid in the same range as fellow elite players in the NHL, to say he is overpaid only makes you appear clueless about how the market works.

 

 

 

He is worth a 1st round pick, grade A prospect, roster player and perhaps a bad contract coming back to the Leafs along with it. 

[yave1964]

@92WickedHockey

You hit the nail on the head with the comment about you don't build your team around a wing. The Clueless one would be Nonis for giving him that contract.

You and I have gotten off to a bad start. I think we both know and love the game, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one and take a 'wait and see' approach as to what happens with Kessel. If he is dealt and the Leafs get a haul, you are welcome to throw in a nyanyanya and an I told you so. If he is kept or traded for little other than getting rid of the contract, expect an I told you so back  .

 It is going to be a fun couple of weeks. Lots of big names in play. I was REALLY hoping the Wings would make a play for Phaneuf, I am convinced if they had added him at the deadline he would have made a difference in the postseason.