Analyzing the Leafs Last Final-4 Appearances

[ScottM]

Oh crap. I thought it went more than five games!    The way the media describes it, the stick measurement was the difference in the series. 

 

Okay scratch that... Leafs weren't all that close in 1993 either. 

 

Be careful about anything the media says. Especially when Gretzky was on the short end... Lol

[flyercanuck]

I didn't realize his comment represented ALL Leaf fans, everywhere.  Good to know.

 

 

I think there's a pretty good group of Leaf fans on this board. I don't see the delusional comments out of you guys about how great Kessel and Phaneuf and Bernier and all those awesome prospects are. But I'll still take the odd shot when warranted...and that goes both ways of course.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Well, Detroit had Lidstrom, who was one of the best ever.  No argument there.  And the Rangers had Leetch.  Same deal.

 

But Dallas?  Hatcher?  He was nothing special.  Neither was Sydor.  They won without an elite D-Man.

 

Montreal?  Had absolutely nobody special on D that year.  Desjardins?  Brisbois?  Schneider?  Puh-lease.  They DEF. won without an elite D-Man.

 

There's no question that Toronto could use a legit Norris Trophy calibre Defenceman.  We've never ever had one.  But you can win without them.  I'm hoping that Rielly can become ours.  There's a real chance at least.

During clutch and grab time? You are nuts sir. He was a monster when able to clutch and grab. He did not get Norris votes for his personality.

 

I get that he did not put up elite offensive totals, but that was not his game. He played more in the mold of Scott Stevens at the time. And Stevens was DAMN effective

 

and am I the only one who finds Desjardins horribly underrated?

[Holymakinaw]

During clutch and grab time? You are nuts sir. He was a monster when able to clutch and grab. He did not get Norris votes for his personality.

 

I get that he did not put up elite offensive totals, but that was not his game. He played more in the mold of Scott Stevens at the time. And Stevens was DAMN effective

 

and am I the only one who finds Desjardins horribly underrated?

 

Hatcher was a "poor man's" Scott Stevens.  

 

And yes.........you are the only one who thinks Desjardins was horribly underrated.

 

[J0e Th0rnton]

Hatcher was a "poor man's" Scott Stevens.  

 

And yes.........you are the only one who thinks Desjardins was horribly underrated.

 

Desjardins was never Ray Bourque, but he was a terrific two way #1 defenseman.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Hatcher was a "poor man's" Scott Stevens.  

 

And yes.........you are the only one who thinks Desjardins was horribly underrated.

 

 

Derian Hatcher was analogous to Scott Stevens or Chris Pronger or Zdeno Chara in their prime. He was a monster during the clutch and grab era of the NHL. When the game was opened up after the lockout, many of the big, lumbering defencemen were out of the game. But during the dead puck era, Hatcher was a top 10, maybe top 5 defenceman in the NHL. 

[jammer2]

@J0e Th0rnton  Desjardins was a huge force in his prime, ate HUGE minutes, lugged the puck like a champ, killed penalties with the best of them, very nice offensive contributions. A VERY good all round d-man ..and yes, certainly underrated. The rest of the league never really appreciated him enough. Good call.

[Holymakinaw]

@J0e Th0rnton  Desjardins was a huge force in his prime, ate HUGE minutes, lugged the puck like a champ, killed penalties with the best of them, very nice offensive contributions. A VERY good all round d-man ..and yes, certainly underrated. The rest of the league never really appreciated him enough. Good call.

 

A poor man's Thomas Kaberle.

 

[J0e Th0rnton]

A poor man's Thomas Kaberle.

 

More like Kaberle was a poor man's Desjardins lol. Not as good defensively or offensively.

 

The thing I remember most about Kaberle. At the bar playing pool with a leaf game on in the background. My leaf friend watching intently.

 

Everytime he flailed his arms frantically yelling "SHOOT SHOOT!!!!!!!", veins bulging from his forehead, I knew Kaberle had the puck.

[flyercanuck]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

Not shooting really took away from kaberles game.

 

The other thing was Desjardin may not have been the most physical defenceman around, but at least he wasn't as soft as Kaberle. The guy played like it was a no contact league. 

 

He was talented though.

[Holymakinaw]

More like Kaberle was a poor man's Desjardins lol. Not as good defensively or offensively.

 

Offensively, Kaberle EASILY wins.  563 points in only 984 games for Kaberle, as opposed to 575 points in 1143 games for Desjardins.  That's a PPG of 46.91 for Kabs and only 41.25 for Desjardins.  Defensively, it's kind of a wash, too.  That's why Desjardins = poor man's Kaberle.  Good player, but a TAD overrated in this thread.

 

Man, you keep losing these comparison things, eh?  What's up with that?  

 

[flyercanuck]

@Holymakinaw

 

There's no way in hell Kaberle/Desjardins are a wash defensively. Kaberle was as soft of a Dman as has ever played in the league. He may have been slightly better offensively. Desjardins played 150 more games...which isn't a bad thing. Desjardins had 3 seasons where he was a minus, Kaberle might have had 3 as a positive. I get that the team reflects part of that...so does being terrible in front of your own net.

[Holymakinaw]

@Holymakinaw

 

There's no way in hell Kaberle/Desjardins are a wash defensively. Kaberle was as soft of a Dman as has ever played in the league. He may have been slightly better offensively. Desjardins played 150 more games...which isn't a bad thing. Desjardins had 3 seasons where he was a minus, Kaberle might have had 3 as a positive. I get that the team reflects part of that...so does being terrible in front of your own net.

 

Kaberle was never "terrible in front of his own net", and Eric Desjardins was just as soft(unless you have some examples of his tough play?).  

 

Desjardin was slower, too.  

 

They both played a pretty sound positional type of game, because hitting was obviously not their thing.   And neither one could ever be mistaken for a top-10 D-Man in the NHL at any point in their careers.  

[J0e Th0rnton]

Offensively, Kaberle EASILY wins.  563 points in only 984 games for Kaberle, as opposed to 575 points in 1143 games for Desjardins.  That's a PPG of 46.91 for Kabs and only 41.25 for Desjardins.  Defensively, it's kind of a wash, too.  That's why Desjardins = poor man's Kaberle.  Good player, but a TAD overrated in this thread.

 

Man, you keep losing these comparison things, eh?  What's up with that?  

 

Oh come on. Kaberle's best point totals came during the 2 years after the lockout after they were calling an obscene amount of penalties before people got used to the new rules. He had 6 PP goals and 45 PP assists in 2005-06, and his next best career high came the season after. Desjardins was putting up his prime totals in the middle of the dead puck era.

 

Defensively, Desjardins was well ahead.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Kaberle was never "terrible in front of his own net", and Eric Desjardins was just as soft(unless you have some examples of his tough play?).  

 

Desjardin was slower, too.  

 

They both played a pretty sound positional type of game, because hitting was obviously not their thing.   And neither one could ever be mistaken for a top-10 D-Man in the NHL at any point in their careers.  

And yet, Desjardins was top 10 in Norris voting 5 times, the highest being 4th and 5th consecutive years behind all time greats like Lidstrom, Pronger, Macinnis, Bourque and prime Blake?. Kaberle never cracked top 10 once. Ever.

 

Your memory of Desjardins is definitely off.

[flyercanuck]

Kaberle was never "terrible in front of his own net", and Eric Desjardins was just as soft(unless you have some examples of his tough play?).  

 

Desjardin was slower, too.  

 

They both played a pretty sound positional type of game, because hitting was obviously not their thing.   And neither one could ever be mistaken for a top-10 D-Man in the NHL at any point in their careers.  

 

Just for laughs I looked up Desjardins on Hockeyfights.com. He had 7 measly fights in his NHL career. Then I looked up Kaberle. His name isn't even listed. So he has zero. I think if there's a Hockeyhits.com site Kaberles stats might be the same. 

 

As Joe pointed out, Desjardins was voted top ten 5 times...Kaberle? Never. 

[Holymakinaw]

Just for laughs I looked up Desjardins on Hockeyfights.com. He had 7 measly fights in his NHL career. Then I looked up Kaberle. His name isn't even listed. So he has zero. I think if there's a Hockeyhits.com site Kaberles stats might be the same. 

 

As Joe pointed out, Desjardins was voted top ten 5 times...Kaberle? Never. 

 

Kaberle fought Jokinen once, in international play.  LOL!!  Best I could find.

 

And I only really meant to respond to the "offensive" comment, because Kaberle WAS the better offensive player, and his stats back that up.  

 

I only really started arguing the defensive side because you made a very typical, and unfair "he was terrible in his own end" comment.  A lot of non-Leaf fans automatically say stuff like that about ANY Leaf player, so I like to get into it with y'all, for poops & giggles.  

 

Kaberle was no shut-down D-Man, I know.  But he also was not terrible in his own end.  And sure....Desjardins was probably better defensively.

 

Man, there's not much to talk about when "Kaberle vs. Desjardins" is the best thing going.  SAD.

 

[flyercanuck]

@Holymakinaw

 

I may be a Flyer fan but I've seen lots of Kaberle. I live near Toronto. Plenty of family and friends are Leaf fans. Most of my hockey team and ballhockey teams are Leaf fans. I've watched my fair share of games. More than my fair share.

 

Kaberle took away from his play by never being a threat to shoot. And his shot wasn't bad. And he was very soft in front of his own net. I'll give the guy all the credit in the world for his ability to carry the puck, his skating and his beautiful passes. But man was he soft.

 

Salming may not have been know for huge hits, but that guy was tough as nails. Horton was obviously as tough as any defenceman who played. Todd Gill. Jim Korn. Bobby Baun. Bob McGill. All guys you didn't want to see standing in front of the Leafs net. Kaberle? Well he's no Billy Stemhovalichki.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Weighing in to (hopefully) settle the Kaberle vs Desjardins dispute:

 

I saw lots of Kaberle in Toronto. He was a puck moving defenceman that could make good passes but who NEVER wanted to shoot the puck. Defensively, he was not a "shut down" guy. He didn't throw punishing body checks, had no "mean streak" or intimidating physical side to his game, and wasn't known for being particularly difficult to play against.

 

Kaberle will best be known for offensive ability not fully realized because he simply refused to use his shot and was therefore very predictable in the offensive zone. Opposing teams never had to cover him.

 

Desjardins was a much more "complete" defenceman. 

[WordsOfWisdom]

And now back to the Leafs "final four" appearances and how the 2002 team was cursed entering the playoffs! 

 

The one story you won't hear about in Leaf-land (because it's arguably one of the worst stories in franchise history) occurred during the 2002 season when a red hot Leafs team made a blockbuster move mid-season by reacquiring Leaf legend Doug Gilmour. Imagine the buzz in Toronto with a great team, and now a great former captain returning (albeit in a greatly reduced role) to be part of a long and prosperous playoff run. This was meant to be the "feel good" move of the season. The final piece of the puzzle. Except that Gilmour would tear his knee ligament in his FIRST GAME back in the blue and white, thereby ending his NHL career.

[jammer2]

  Joe, fc....agree with you guys 100%. I don't even think it is that close. Desjardins was significantly better all round, much better on defense. Another factor that not many mention, but oh so true....Kaberle was horrible at taking a hard hit. He would fall and lie there and would hardly ever recover to the point where he became an active part of the play going the other way. He was so soft, his team would get many, many odd man breaks the other way because Thomas was....well, unmanly and soft AND that is the truth.

[J0e Th0rnton]

And now back to the Leafs "final four" appearances and how the 2002 team was cursed entering the playoffs! 

 

The one story you won't hear about in Leaf-land (because it's arguably one of the worst stories in franchise history) occurred during the 2002 season when a red hot Leafs team made a blockbuster move mid-season by reacquiring Leaf legend Doug Gilmour. Imagine the buzz in Toronto with a great team, and now a great former captain returning (albeit in a greatly reduced role) to be part of a long and prosperous playoff run. This was meant to be the "feel good" move of the season. The final piece of the puzzle. Except that Gilmour would tear his knee ligament in his FIRST GAME back in the blue and white, thereby ending his NHL career.

I remember that like yesterday. I was soooo sad to see Killer crawling off the ice. We all knew it was over

[WordsOfWisdom]

I remember that like yesterday. I was soooo sad to see Killer crawling off the ice. We all knew it was over

 

That was the moment when I knew the Leafs were legitimately cursed, and that they may never win the Stanley Cup ever again.

 

Can you think of another example (in any sport) of a former top player returning to the franchise where they enjoyed their best years and then being critically injured in their first game back? (Severely enough that it would be the last game they ever played in the league?) The Doug Gilmour injury may be the first time in pro sports history that such a scenario has ever happened. It's not just bad luck, it's lottery-like in how horribly unlikely such a scenario is.

 

Gilmour was meant to be a "depth" guy on that Leafs team. Someone with experience. Someone that was battle tested. A leader on and off the ice. The buzz surrounding his return was amazing... and then POP.... all the air went out of the Leafs balloon on his first or second shift when he got injured. All buzz surrounding the team ended right then and there. The media tried to gloss over it but that was like a dagger to the heart of the team.

 

The Leafs have been a complete non-factor in the NHL since that season.

[jammer2]

The Leafs have been a complete non-factor in the NHL since that season.

 

Love the fact your posts are based on reality. Kudos to you for seeing it like it really happened. While it may be painful, I respect the hell out of that quality from you.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Love the fact your posts are based on reality. Kudos to you for seeing it like it really happened. While it may be painful, I respect the hell out of that quality from you.

 

Thanks. I take off my blue colored glasses and try to tell it like it is... especially when I see that most of the media covering the team are owned or heavily influenced by MLSE and not allowed to say anything negative about the team.