The Vinny anti-Chaos Theory

[idahophilly]

So, maybe this isn't a classic case of the chaos theory at work and that can be argued fairly. But what follows is on some level chaos decision making in what to do with VLC this year. Everyone is gonna have a different theory. Call it what you want.

 

Here is a "no new news" story...

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=774634&navid=nhl:topheads

 

Let's get this out of the way: 1st, forget about arguing a trade of any kind. We are dealing with the facts as they stand now. If he gets traded tomorrow then fine. No chaos. 2nd, forget about plopping him in the press box all year to serve pop corn. I'll never say never but let's stick to the hard fact that as it stands now; he is on the team making a ridiculous amount of money. 3rd, let's move on. It happened. Hextall didn't buy him out, Homer signed him. Yada Yada Yada...

 

The question is, do you go all in for 1 year. I mean, make him your 3rd line center for just this year, don't push his buttons, and give him decent line mates? Maybe he does pretty good and you get a pick for him at the deadline from a team that needs a vet with 15-20 goals.

 

or, do you bury him again on the 4th line wing and he goes into the deadline or next summer with another 5-10 goal campaign under his belt?

 

Playing him 3rd line center makes a Schenn move to wing a given and quit frankly moves Coots up to the 2nd line center and we see if he can have a breakout offensive season. Why not? This whole season is a transitional year anyway so again, why not? Gagner is gonna play wing and Bellemare is actually to good as the 4th line center to move him.

 

And if there is gonna be a cap casualty in a year or two it's the Schenn's so big whoop. Braydon plays wing and make Luke pass the popcorn upstairs until we package the brothers up. (note: I actually don't think that will be needed, well maybe Luke but not Braydon).

 

My whole point is since this is a transition year, make some lemonade out of the lemons. To much is being made of EVERY single player on a team having to play a 200 foot defensive game. Unleash VLC and actually let him go wild and put a few defensive minded wingers with him (yes, kinda backwards but again why not?).

 

Doing the same thing and getting different results is the definition of the chaos theory, in essence. In this case doing the same thing pretty much guarantees the same thing doesn't it?

 

Just food for thought...

 

(now Hextall will trade him tomorrow after writing this)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Maybe they buy him out when the new buyout period opens due to MDZ's arbitration case....we'll see...wishful thinking...

[idahophilly]

I wasn't aware that extended to the whole team. I think it's player specific. Besides, if they were going to they would have.... And i said forget the wishful thinking here! 

[OccamsRazor]

I wasn't aware that extended to the whole team. I think it's player specific. Besides, if they were going to they would have.... And i said forget the wishful thinking here! 

I'm not sure what it does extend to but i'm think once a price has been established it allows the team to buy out other players so it can afford to sign the player they went to arbitration with.

Who/how and all that i'm not clear on.

Maybe someone else here can clear that up.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

I'll clear it up for you. The Flyers will NOT buy out Vinny. Hope this helps.

[murraycraven]

This either makes no sense or I have to go back to bed bc I have a case of the Mondays...

[radoran]

I like the idea of trying to do something productive with him.

Better than the mess Berube made of the situation.

If it works out, great! But if it doesn't, what's the fallback position?

[OccamsRazor]

what's the fallback position?

 

Let's just get Anton Chigurh to visit Vinny....

 

[idahophilly]

f it works out, great! But if it doesn't, what's the fallback position?

 

Fallback is: "Would you like butter on your popcorn?"

[murraycraven]

I like the idea of trying to do something productive with him.

Better than the mess Berube made of the situation.

If it works out, great! But if it doesn't, what's the fallback position?

 

 

Not sure if there is really anything else to do with Vinny honestly.... maybe he plays well under Hak and someone is stupid enough to trade for him - probably not though.

[DaGreatGazoo]

• For teams with two or more arbitration filings in an offseason, an additional buyout window is available 48 hours after the team's last arbitration filing is awarded or settled. For this buyout window, there is a minimum AAV requirement on the player being bought out that varies annually. The estimated minimum for the 2015 offseason is $2,985,625. In addition to meeting this minimum AAV, the player must have been on the team's reserve list for the previous year to qualify for this buyout window. Teams can execute a maximum of 3 buyouts in this additional buyout window over the course of the entire CBA term.

[radoran]

Vinny got $10.7M last year in salary.

 

$4.7M from the Bolts

$6M from the Flyers.

 

He's getting $8.2M ($3.7M/$4.5M) for the upcoming season.

 

True story. #fiscalresponsibility #lockout

 

[King Knut]

So, maybe this isn't a classic case of the chaos theory at work and that can be argued fairly. But what follows is on some level chaos decision making in what to do with VLC this year. Everyone is gonna have a different theory. Call it what you want.

 

Here is a "no new news" story...

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=774634&navid=nhl:topheads

 

Let's get this out of the way: 1st, forget about arguing a trade of any kind. We are dealing with the facts as they stand now. If he gets traded tomorrow then fine. No chaos. 2nd, forget about plopping him in the press box all year to serve pop corn. I'll never say never but let's stick to the hard fact that as it stands now; he is on the team making a ridiculous amount of money. 3rd, let's move on. It happened. Hextall didn't buy him out, Homer signed him. Yada Yada Yada...

 

The question is, do you go all in for 1 year. I mean, make him your 3rd line center for just this year, don't push his buttons, and give him decent line mates? Maybe he does pretty good and you get a pick for him at the deadline from a team that needs a vet with 15-20 goals.

 

or, do you bury him again on the 4th line wing and he goes into the deadline or next summer with another 5-10 goal campaign under his belt?

 

Playing him 3rd line center makes a Schenn move to wing a given and quit frankly moves Coots up to the 2nd line center and we see if he can have a breakout offensive season. Why not? This whole season is a transitional year anyway so again, why not? Gagner is gonna play wing and Bellemare is actually to good as the 4th line center to move him.

 

And if there is gonna be a cap casualty in a year or two it's the Schenn's so big whoop. Braydon plays wing and make Luke pass the popcorn upstairs until we package the brothers up. (note: I actually don't think that will be needed, well maybe Luke but not Braydon).

 

My whole point is since this is a transition year, make some lemonade out of the lemons. To much is being made of EVERY single player on a team having to play a 200 foot defensive game. Unleash VLC and actually let him go wild and put a few defensive minded wingers with him (yes, kinda backwards but again why not?).

 

Doing the same thing and getting different results is the definition of the chaos theory, in essence. In this case doing the same thing pretty much guarantees the same thing doesn't it?

 

Just food for thought...

 

(now Hextall will trade him tomorrow after writing this)

 

Coots needs to be 2nd line C this year.  Whenever he plays with Simmer or Schenn he shows impressive things.

 

Personally I'd rather be playing Vinny than Umberger at this point.  I think Vinny stunk because Berube played him like ass if he played him at all.  Vinny will be much better under a coach that has a clue as to how to utilize him and plays him in a role that has potential to utilize Vinny's strengths.

 

Remember Vinny had like a point a game in those first three miserable games under LaVy.  Two years later what has he got left in the tank?  a 30/30 season?  probably not.  But far better than Chief got out of him, I have no doubt about that.

 

I like Schenn with Coots, but I also Like Simmer with Coots.  Much as he may hate it and may have to adapt, I don't think Vinny is going tow work out as a Center on Hakstol's team.  That doesn't mean wing isn't a possibility. 

 

Can he play on Coot's left?  aside Jake and G even?  Who knows. 

 

What I am far, FAR more concerned about is who gets saddled with Read and Umberger.  Coots got stuck with those lumps all year last year and it KILLED him.  They were TERRIBLE.  Everyone was complaining about Vinny and Coburn and MacDonald all year, but in my eyes, NO ONE on the team looked worse than Umberger and Read wasn't far behind. And they absolutely KILLED Coots's year because Chief was moron enough to A) keep them in the lineup and B) keep them on the same line with Coots and then (and this is the kicker) C) Bitch out Coots to the press because he wasn't scoring enough.  Nice one chief.   the only Team that guy should be a Chief of is the one down at your closest Tim Horton's.

 

Now by the end of the year we found out Bumby and Reader were both playing hurt all year (which... why?  They should have had an LTIR slot for Umberger to go have his surgery and why make Read play through it and suck so badly if it was obvious (and it sure as hell should have been obvious) that he couldn't keep up?  Just so Chief could keep that roster spot open so he could bench Vinny?  When Vinny says in that article that he's in shape... that's a significant statement.  He was benched last year becuase he wasn't scoring 20 goals on 12 minutes a night from the 4th line, meanwhile two guys who were obviously in too much pain to be playing were getting 3rd line minutes with an young center that they were obviously dragging down with them.

 

So while everyone is chatting about Vinny and what are we gonna do with Vinny, let me tell you right here and now Umby and Reader scare the crap out of me way more than Vinny.

 

I'd play the Vinny of last year over last year's version of either one of those two any day on any line and twice on Tuesdays.  Seriously folks... Vinny is the least of this team's worries. 

[King Knut]

Vinny got $10.7M last year in salary.

 

$4.7M from the Bolts

$6M from the Flyers.

 

He's getting $8.2M ($3.7M/$4.5M) for the upcoming season.

 

True story. #fiscalresponsibility #lockout

 

 

Yes, but how are the benefits? 

[idahophilly]

Coots needs to be 2nd line C this year.  Whenever he plays with Simmer or Schenn he shows impressive things.

 

Personally I'd rather be playing Vinny than Umberger at this point.  I think Vinny stunk because Berube played him like ass if he played him at all.  Vinny will be much better under a coach that has a clue as to how to utilize him and plays him in a role that has potential to utilize Vinny's strengths.

 

Remember Vinny had like a point a game in those first three miserable games under LaVy.  Two years later what has he got left in the tank?  a 30/30 season?  probably not.  But far better than Chief got out of him, I have no doubt about that.

 

I like Schenn with Coots, but I also Like Simmer with Coots.  Much as he may hate it and may have to adapt, I don't think Vinny is going tow work out as a Center on Hakstol's team.  That doesn't mean wing isn't a possibility. 

 

Can he play on Coot's left?  aside Jake and G even?  Who knows. 

 

What I am far, FAR more concerned about is who gets saddled with Read and Umberger.  Coots got stuck with those lumps all year last year and it KILLED him.  They were TERRIBLE.  Everyone was complaining about Vinny and Coburn and MacDonald all year, but in my eyes, NO ONE on the team looked worse than Umberger and Read wasn't far behind. And they absolutely KILLED Coots's year because Chief was moron enough to A) keep them in the lineup and B) keep them on the same line with Coots and then (and this is the kicker) C) Bitch out Coots to the press because he wasn't scoring enough.  Nice one chief.   the only Team that guy should be a Chief of is the one down at your closest Tim Horton's.

 

Now by the end of the year we found out Bumby and Reader were both playing hurt all year (which... why?  They should have had an LTIR slot for Umberger to go have his surgery and why make Read play through it and suck so badly if it was obvious (and it sure as hell should have been obvious) that he couldn't keep up?  Just so Chief could keep that roster spot open so he could bench Vinny?  When Vinny says in that article that he's in shape... that's a significant statement.  He was benched last year becuase he wasn't scoring 20 goals on 12 minutes a night from the 4th line, meanwhile two guys who were obviously in too much pain to be playing were getting 3rd line minutes with an young center that they were obviously dragging down with them.

 

So while everyone is chatting about Vinny and what are we gonna do with Vinny, let me tell you right here and now Umby and Reader scare the crap out of me way more than Vinny.

 

I'd play the Vinny of last year over last year's version of either one of those two any day on any line and twice on Tuesdays.  Seriously folks... Vinny is the least of this team's worries. 

I can't disagree with ANYTHING you said. My purpose wasn't to analyze Read and Umberger but it's hard not to talk about Vinney without taking into account the greater context of the whole team. My point is maybe we can get 20/20 out of VLC. I said 3rd line center to keep people's heads from exploding if I had said what I was thinks and you posed it so... maybe VLC can be a 2nd line winger and again you just take the leash of him and say "do what you can on defense but your there to set up Simmonds and Coots (or whoever). VLC might be very amiable to playing wing if his shackles are taken off.

As far as Coots goes that kid nearly had his career destroyed last year. That was like throwing him into the ocean to save two others drowning in the surf.  They sucked him down to. I KNEW for sure (locked up, nails driven into the coffin, fork stuck in him while the fat lady was singing) when he started "bashing" Coots in the press that Berube was done... 

[murraycraven]

I think this is all good in context but the fact remains that Hak's system IS NOT built for a player like VLC - defensive responsibility is not something that VLC brings to the table.   Speed is another thing...    This entire scenario is just dreadful for both VLC and the Flyers.

 

In the end it comes down to polishing the ol' proverbial turd - it cant be done.

[radoran]

Remember Vinny had like a point a game in those first three miserable games under LaVy.

 

One can certainly put a lot of lipstick on, but the pig remains porcine.

 

He had a goal and an assist - both on the power play. He was -2 and 18-28 (39%) at the faceoff dot. Not exactly world-beating numbers.

 

That said, he did have 9 goals before the end of November - and then went until January 14 to get #10.

 

Seriously folks... Vinny is the least of this team's worries.

 

He hasn't played a full season - or, indeed, 70 games - since 2009-2010. His numbers have been on a steady decline since then as well.

 

He doesn't play wing well - or, indeed, have any desire to play wing. He was brought in to be a second line center for a team that didn't need a second line center - and still doesn't. They have to play him at wing, but I am not sanguine about the possibility of radical new results. Nor am I really excited to see players like Simmonds, Schenn and Gagner taking back seats with the "possibility" that VLC could find a game.

 

Upon reflection, VLC centering the third line is a disaster waiting to happen. He doesn't even have the defensive acumen of "shutdown center" Petr Nedved. He would get eaten alive by other teams - one can imagine Crosby and Malkin fighting on the bench to get the chance to get on the ice opposite him. And he hasn't provided enough "energy" to even get anything productive out of fourth line time.

 

I absolutely concur that Umburglar and Read are serious concerns as well - can they terminate Umburglar's contract for failing to report his injury? please? - but I don't think we can accurately say VLC is the "least" of the problems facing this team.

 

He may still have something in the tank and might be able to be a productive player somewhere - but I just don't see it in orange and black.

[King Knut]

I can't disagree with ANYTHING you said. My purpose wasn't to analyze Read and Umberger but it's hard not to talk about Vinney without taking into account the greater context of the whole team. My point is maybe we can get 20/20 out of VLC. I said 3rd line center to keep people's heads from exploding if I had said what I was thinks and you posed it so... maybe VLC can be a 2nd line winger and again you just take the leash of him and say "do what you can on defense but your there to set up Simmonds and Coots (or whoever). VLC might be very amiable to playing wing if his shackles are taken off.

As far as Coots goes that kid nearly had his career destroyed last year. That was like throwing him into the ocean to save two others drowning in the surf.  They sucked him down to. I KNEW for sure (locked up, nails driven into the coffin, fork stuck in him while the fat lady was singing) when he started "bashing" Coots in the press that Berube was done... 

 

If we get 20/20 out of Vinny I think we should all shut up and be happy... plus I bet Hexy can trade him come deadline time under those conditions.  So yeah, I totally agree. 

 

I aslo agree about letting him off the leash a bit, but the thing about him "doing what he can" on defense and why I totally agree that putting him on a top 2 line might be key because if he's playing with guys who are used to covering (Jake, G, Coots, e.g.) then at least his offense can benefit those lines (Jake and G still need a finisher). 

BUT I think more importantly about Vinny's Defense this year is that instead of being told "You need to play more defense and do it better" he might actually be told how to do that within a system.  i.e., "The Left Wing in this system does this, the right wing does that and the center does either this or that or this other thing depending on what the Defense is doing"  That's what a system does and a decent coach instills that.  The larger part of the problem last year wasn't a lack of talent, it wasn't a lack of effort, it was (at least obviously to my eyes) far more that none of them knew what to do, just that they needed to be doing it harder and skating more and that they sucked and would get benched if they couldn't figure it out on their own.

 

VLC is two years older than he was when we last saw him having a clue what he was supposed to be doing out there and that may be a factor, but I have some belief that with decent coaching he can be a solid contributor.  Never enough of one to earn his salary (his Flyers salary, I don't care about his buyout numbers, that's Yzerman's business) but enough to not be a depressing drain on the team. 

I still believe he can do that.  20/20 is not absurd to hope for in my estimation. 

 

My only points for bringing up Reader and Umby were that I have far less faith in them being able to do that after watching them last year.  Granted they were hurting, but man oh man, they were a much larger drain on the team and got more minutes than Vinny IMHO.

[King Knut]

One can certainly put a lot of lipstick on, but the pig remains porcine.

 

He hasn't played a full season - or, indeed, 70 games - since 2009-2010. His numbers have been on a steady decline since then as well.

 

He doesn't play wing well - or, indeed, have any desire to play wing. He was brought in to be a second line center for a team that didn't need a second line center - and still doesn't. They have to play him at wing, but I am not sanguine about the possibility of radical new results. Nor am I really excited to see players like Simmonds, Schenn and Gagner taking back seats with the "possibility" that VLC could find a game.

 

Upon reflection, VLC centering the third line is a disaster waiting to happen. He doesn't even have the defensive acumen of "shutdown center" Petr Nedved. He would get eaten alive by other teams - one can imagine Crosby and Malkin fighting on the bench to get the chance to get on the ice opposite him. And he hasn't provided enough "energy" to even get anything productive out of fourth line time.

 

I absolutely concur that Umburglar and Read are serious concerns as well - can they terminate Umburglar's contract for failing to report his injury? please? - but I don't think we can accurately say VLC is the "least" of the problems facing this team.

 

He may still have something in the tank and might be able to be a productive player somewhere - but I just don't see it in orange and black.

 

So reading between the lines, you'd like to desanguinate that porcine LeCavalier ?

 

sorry i digress. 

 

I'm not worried about his lack of a full season because A)  Berube benched him for a lot of that.  B)  If he's out, do we really care?   I thought we were talking about what to do with the guy that everyone is so terrified to play.  Seems to me that if Vinny gets a back problem or a concussion, all our problems are solved...  and no, that is not my version of suggesting Hextall to walk around the Skate Zone asking, "Who will rid me of this Meddlesome VLC?!"

 

I wish we could cancel Umby's contract, but Hextall says he knew about the injury and it had been disclosed before the trade, which brings me back to what instantly becomes the larger question, if Hexy knew about it and the deal was a salary dump, but not friggn' force Umberger into surgery immediately so you could LTIR him right away and get 4.5 million back for last year to help out a bit?

 

If they knew, why was he out there every night sucking it up while Vinny and others were healthy and getting benched for sucking it up IMHO not quite as badly?

 

Read is the one I just don't get.  Even when he wasn't producing, he was never that bad.  His injuries were more numerous and nagging than one significant thing that needed to be repaired like Umby... where does that leave him?  You're right... Umby could bounce back after surgery, but can Read?   There was no surgery to repair anything with him.

 

Personally I don't see either of them helping much in their returns even with enhanced coaching strategy and planning techniques that could theoretically help guys like Vinny contribute more.

[radoran]

So reading between the lines, you'd like to desanguinate that porcine LeCavalier ?

sorry i digress.

 

 

Actually, I'd just like to not see him wearing the Flyer crest.

 

I'm not worried about his lack of a full season because A) Berube benched him for a lot of that. B) If he's out, do we really care?

 

Yes, he did get the healthy scratch tag, but he did have injury problems - again - and has for the past five years.

 

Don't get me wrong, Berube is a dolt - but I'm not sure that a new (defensively minded) coach is a panacea for VLC.

 

I wish we could cancel Umby's contract, but Hextall says he knew about the injury and it had been disclosed before the trade, which brings me back to what instantly becomes the larger question, if Hexy knew about it and the deal was a salary dump, but not friggn' force Umberger into surgery immediately so you could LTIR him right away and get 4.5 million back for last year to help out a bit?

 

The entire Umburglar for Hartnell thing remains ridiculous. As is the "we knew about the injury before we didn't know about the injury" line the franchise has tried desperately  to peddle.

 

If they knew, why was he out there every night sucking it up while Vinny and others were healthy and getting benched for sucking it up IMHO not quite as badly?

Read is the one I just don't get. Even when he wasn't producing, he was never that bad. His injuries were more numerous and nagging than one significant thing that needed to be repaired like Umby... where does that leave him? You're right... Umby could bounce back after surgery, but can Read? There was no surgery to repair anything with him.

 

Just to recap - Berube is a dolt. It would not surprise me if he had a personal thing against "golden boy" Lecavalier. Speculation on my part - 100%.

 

That said, I don't think it can be argued that the team was better when he wasn't on the ice.

 

And now the "solution" is to try to remold the entire team's lines and demote players in their primes just so there's a chance that a 35-year-old VLC can contribute.

 

I understand the theory and I can agree to an extent. I just think it sucks.

 

Personally I don't see either of them helping much in their returns even with enhanced coaching strategy and planning techniques that could theoretically help guys like Vinny contribute more.

 

Read's a spare part, but he has five more goals than VLC since 10-11. I'm not seeing where the 29-year-old is worthless while they need to restructure the team to benefit the 35-year-old.

 

Could be that VLC discovers a defensive game, but he hasn't been a "plus" player since 2006-07 (even as a scoring machine in Tampa - the guy scored 40 goals (5 on the PP) and was -17 in 07-08. That's hard to do and only three times since has a player scored 40+ and been -10 or more: Ovechkin and Kovalchuk (twice - including the same year VLC did it))

 

He's -23 in 126 games for Philadelphia.

 

I'll wager there's a better chance Read pots 20 on the third line wing than VLC scores 20 at all.

[King Knut]

 

Actually, I'd just like to not see him wearing the Flyer crest.

 

 

 

 

Yes, he did get the healthy scratch tag, but he did have injury problems - again - and has for the past five years.

 

Don't get me wrong, Berube is a dolt - but I'm not sure that a new (defensively minded) coach is a panacea for VLC.

 

 

 

 

The entire Umburglar for Hartnell thing remains ridiculous. As is the "we knew about the injury before we didn't know about the injury" line the franchise has tried desperately  to peddle.

 

 

 

 

Just to recap - Berube is a dolt. It would not surprise me if he had a personal thing against "golden boy" Lecavalier. Speculation on my part - 100%.

 

That said, I don't think it can be argued that the team was better when he wasn't on the ice.

 

And now the "solution" is to try to remold the entire team's lines and demote players in their primes just so there's a chance that a 35-year-old VLC can contribute.

 

I understand the theory and I can agree to an extent. I just think it sucks.

 

 

 

 

Read's a spare part, but he has five more goals than VLC since 10-11. I'm not seeing where the 29-year-old is worthless while they need to restructure the team to benefit the 35-year-old.

 

Could be that VLC discovers a defensive game, but he hasn't been a "plus" player since 2006-07 (even as a scoring machine in Tampa - the guy scored 40 goals (5 on the PP) and was -17 in 07-08. That's hard to do and only three times since has a player scored 40+ and been -10 or more: Ovechkin and Kovalchuk (twice - including the same year VLC did it))

 

He's -23 in 126 games for Philadelphia.

 

I'll wager there's a better chance Read pots 20 on the third line wing than VLC scores 20 at all.

 

If you can't move the three of them (and really you can't)  I'm not sure what else there is to do but theorize on how living with them on the team could work.

 

I have hope Reader has a comeback (i.e. healthier year) but he looked bad last year. 

 

Hakstol is a system minded coach who favors defensive responsibility, and I don't think Umberger, Read or VLC have a problem with that.  Who knows what they can do with it when they're actually told what that means?

 

Maybe nothing.  But it can't get much worse.

 

Last year i figured if Hexy and Chief were smart and on the same page (especially after the desperation draconian Umberger deal) The goal would be to do anything Chief could to make Vinny and Umby look like Scorers and to make MacDonald look like a Defenseman so all would be trade-able.

 

The oppose seemed to be true, so apparently either they weren't on the same page or they both weren't so smart. 

 

Honestly, if they tanked the first 2/3 of the season and put Vinny on a Line with Jake and G and just had them dish to him again and again until he scored (his shot's still half decent) the resulting totals would make him a valuable enough commodity, that no one would care about his plus/minus.

 

But more to the point, what the hell else do we do with him other than to try to make him more productive?

[radoran]

If you can't move the three of them (and really you can't) I'm not sure what else there is to do but theorize on how living with them on the team could work.

 

Well, sure. And I believe we've done that.

 

In my first post I said it would be great if something productive could be done with him.

 

Would have been nice if Bryzgalov had been a Vezina-caliber goalie, too.

 

Last year i figured if Hexy and Chief were smart and on the same page (especially after the desperation draconian Umberger deal) The goal would be to do anything Chief could to make Vinny and Umby look like Scorers and to make MacDonald look like a Defenseman so all would be trade-able.

The oppose seemed to be true, so apparently either they weren't on the same page or they both weren't so smart.

 

It was pretty incredible watching how GM and coach seemed to be reading books on different planets. I think that more than anything else is what sealed Berube's fate.

 

And Berube's inane "any forward can play any position" nonsense certainly didn't help.

 

Honestly, if they tanked the first 2/3 of the season and put Vinny on a Line with Jake and G and just had them dish to him again and again until he scored (his shot's still half decent) the resulting totals would make him a valuable enough commodity, that no one would care about his plus/minus.

But more to the point, what the hell else do we do with him other than to try to make him more productive?

 

If what we're looking at is "ways to make VLC better" that's great. But if what we're looking at is "ways to make the Flyers better" those two goals may be in serious conflict.

 

To the first end, I'd slot him in at second line center and let him have a go at it. IMO that's what they should have done in the first place. "Here's your chance - run with it or retire."

 

Something like:

Gagner-Giroux-Voracek

Schenn-VLC-Simmonds

Read-Couturier-Raffl

Bellemare-White-VDV

 

popcorn passer:  Bumblefish MacGrudersonberger

 

Not the best thing for Couturier, but something simply has to give if the goal is "put VLC into the best spot for VLC."

[King Knut]

Not the best thing for Couturier, but something simply has to give if the goal is "put VLC into the best spot for VLC."

 

Schenn seems to favor the right side.  I'd keep him or Simmer with Coots as things tend to get better for the team when they do that.

 

There is no good thing to do with Vinny.  Also you left out Umberger.

 

If Read is healthy and can actually play (unlike last year) then Read, Coots and Schenn is a good line.  Honestly, I'd rather see Coots with Simmer, but I'd continue to take him with Schenn if necessary. Putting him with Raffl is real problem I think.

 

I honestly don't know where Raffl fits in on this team.    He's decent and produces nicely from time to time, but he's another "add in" guy and not the type to make anyone else particularly better.

 

I'm eager to see what Hakstol will come up with for this lineup.  Honestly, I think our visions may be a bit clouded on these guys and their capabilities by two years of Berube chaos.

 

Just because VLC couldn't figure out the wing for Chief, that means squat for what he'll be able to do for a decent coach.  There may be combinations and roles for guys to play that we're just not thinking of because we've seen everyone misused for two years.

 

Honestly, (and I've said this elsewhere) Jake and G were horrible misused the last two years.  They were misused as badly as anyone IMHO, but their skill level is just at such a point where they can handle it and still produce.  Like the way the best kids playing pond hockey can play horribly unsmart games, but still put of points and shut down the opposition on skill alone.

 

Honestly, I don't think we know the first thing about this team or these players and what they're really good at and what they're really capable of (or not capable of). 

[radoran]

Also you left out Umberger.

 

sort of

 

popcorn passer: Bumblefish MacGrudersonberger

 

Just because VLC couldn't figure out the wing for Chief, that means squat for what he'll be able to do for a decent coach.

 

The issue isn't that he "couldn't figure out the wing" - it was that he didn't want to play wing, was uncomfortable doing it and was pretty vocal about it. Which is somewhat related to the idiocy of our previous coach, but also that he played center for his entire natural existence until Berube declared in his infinite wisdom that any forward can play any position. Teaching a new position to a guy at 34 - if anything Chef did can be called "teaching" - doesn't have a terrific track record in the NHL.

 

And while I like the outside the box thinking of the Hakstol signing and really do think it can pay big dividends for the Flyers, there is the thing where he still hasn't coached in the NHL or, indeed, anyone over the age of 24, much less millionaires on guaranteed contracts. The Philadelphia Flyers ain't the North Dakota Sioux.

 

Honestly, I don't think we know the first thing about this team or these players and what they're really good at and what they're really capable of (or not capable of).

 

Yeah, I can see that being a real possibility. The hangover from the #homercoaster years isn't going away soon.

[King Knut]

The Philadelphia Flyers ain't the North Dakota Sioux.

 

No, but at the same time, Vinny's already spend half a healthy season riding the pine.

And yes, his contract is guaranteed, but his pride isn't. 

 

I don't think Hakstol has any qualms about sitting him any more than Berube did... at least between he and Berube, Hakstoll has some experiencing teaching someone something.  Anyone.  Anything. 

 

And I think the supposition that what VLC was pissy about was playing the wing is a little unsubstantiated don't you?  He stated at the time of the signing that he was excited to come play with guys like Giroux.  My interpretation was that he was pissy because when he was moved to wing, he wasn't put on Giroux's line automatically.

 

What did he say about playing the wing specifically other than that he wanted to do what the team needed that I don't remember? 

 

He couldn't wing Brayden and he couldn't wing on the 4th line (remember he started scoring again when he centered the 4th line). 

 

All I'm saying is that I think it's all too easy to lay this at the feet of a new dog not being able to or really just not wanting to learn new tricks,  when in fact, it may be more a case of an old dog trying to learn new tricks from an even older and more stubborn dog.

 

Is Hakstoll the Dog Whisperer of hockey in this dialectic?  We can only hope.  Chances are, no matter what, it won't be worse.

 

Too bad Vinny can't have an "incident" at the border.