Flyers/Habs/Oilers rumour

[Howie58]

Wrong Mcdonald, the real Mac would be 1.6m a year.

My gut tells me we keep Vinny warming the bench for another year, a MAC buyout might be good to free cap and development staff.  Another possibility--what about expansion?  Maybe Quebec City needs a warm body.

[elmatus]

I would throw the Jake contract in there too... not reason to give him that contract at the time. None whatsoever... that can obviously change but as it stands today it is not looking good.

Yeah, I'm not quite ready to throw V under the bus yet. I do understand the frustration though, and I'm not saying I won't eventually feel that way. I think even stars have bad starts.

Last year he played very much like a guy deserving of that type of contract, and he was stellar during the lockout year, so I can understand why Hex did it.

At this point I'm willing to wait and see a bit longer.

[flyercanuck]

@elmatus

 

I agree last year Voracek looked like he deserved that money.

 

But Philly has to stop paying guys for what they did over one year.... or 19 games.

[elmatus]

@elmatus

 

I agree last year Voracek looked like he deserved that money.

 

But Philly has to stop paying guys for what they did over one year.... or 19 games.

 

Like I said, I'm not saying I won't be disappointed in the contract. If he doesn't pick up and finish strong, I will definitely be thinking the same way.

 

When it comes to V, Hextall was obviously taking a measured risk. He was one of the best in the league last year. He was also almost a point per game during the lockout season. That's two of the last three years where he's been producing at an elite level.

 

Going forward, players who produce 80+ per year will not be asking for 8 million. They'll be asking for 10 million. I have no doubt Hex thought about this. If Jake had reproduced his totals from last year this year, we'd be on the hook for more money than Hex could offer him. Hell even 8 million is a tough swallow for a team this strapped, imaging trying to fit another 2 million in there. It would have been impossible, and Hex would have been forced to trade him away.

 

So, yeah, it may prove to be a costly mistake. It was a risk Hex took based on the info he had in front of him. I think a lot of GMs would have done the same in his situation.

[murraycraven]

@elmatus

 

I agree last year Voracek looked like he deserved that money.

 

But Philly has to stop paying guys for what they did over one year.... or 19 games.

 

I would say he did look like he deserved it... Hextall preaches patience and this is the one time I wish he would have listened to his own advice.   I am not jumping of the Jake bus but it is concerning...

[brelic]

Going forward, players who produce 80+ per year will not be asking for 8 million. They'll be asking for 10 million.

 

Kopitar, who is already 28, is reportedly close to an 8-year, $10M/aav contract extension.

 

Is he worth that as a 2nd line center?

[radoran]

Kopitar, who is already 28, is reportedly close to an 8-year, $10M/aav contract extension.

 

Is he worth that as a 2nd line center?

 

No.

 

This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.

 

That was also the argument for signing MacDonald - someone would have given him the money.

 

Well, fine, if someone wants to make an egregious mistake - let them. That's not a reason that you have to make an egregious mistake.

[brelic]

No.

 

This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.

 

That was also the argument for signing MacDonald - someone would have given him the money.

 

Well, fine, if someone wants to make an egregious mistake - let them. That's not a reason that you have to make an egregious mistake.

 

Exactly. Kopitar, to me, is not a $10M player.

[radoran]

Exactly. Kopitar, to me, is not a $10M player.

 

A guy who has never been a point per game player in his career?

 

A guy who last hit 30 goals in 2010?

 

A guy who had 64 points (16 goals) in 79 games last season?

 

A guy "on pace" for 27 goals and 48 points this season?

 

$10M? For eight years!?!?

 

     

[flyercanuck]

Like I said, I'm not saying I won't be disappointed in the contract. If he doesn't pick up and finish strong, I will definitely be thinking the same way.

 

When it comes to V, Hextall was obviously taking a measured risk. He was one of the best in the league last year. He was also almost a point per game during the lockout season. That's two of the last three years where he's been producing at an elite level.

 

Going forward, players who produce 80+ per year will not be asking for 8 million. They'll be asking for 10 million. I have no doubt Hex thought about this. If Jake had reproduced his totals from last year this year, we'd be on the hook for more money than Hex could offer him. Hell even 8 million is a tough swallow for a team this strapped, imaging trying to fit another 2 million in there. It would have been impossible, and Hex would have been forced to trade him away.

 

So, yeah, it may prove to be a costly mistake. It was a risk Hex took based on the info he had in front of him. I think a lot of GMs would have done the same in his situation.

 

Jake wasn't getting more than Giroux. Period. And Hextall could have waited until this season to re-sign him. If he was putting up those points for the 2nd year in a row, it would make more sense. 

 

Voracek is a better player than he's showing right now, obviously. 

[murraycraven]

Jake wasn't getting more than Giroux. Period. And Hextall could have waited until this season to re-sign him. If he was putting up those points for the 2nd year in a row, it would make more sense. 

 

Voracek is a better player than he's showing right now, obviously. 

 

agreed...

 

my expectation is that Jake is a 60-65pt player in the league... still too much money IMO.  I WANT to be wrong but just feel this contract could be another albatross...

[radoran]

Jake wasn't getting more than Giroux. Period. And Hextall could have waited until this season to re-sign him. If he was putting up those points for the 2nd year in a row, it would make more sense.

 

This goes back to Mr. Snider's query: "do we overvalue our players?"

 

Yes, yes they do.

 

Voracek was never going to get more money than Giroux. That's just absurd. And even the possibility isn't a "reason:" to make a six year commitment to the player.

 

A player who has never hit 25 goals in a season wants to demand $10M?

 

Trade him. Now.

[murraycraven]

This goes back to Mr. Snider's query: "do we overvalue our players?"

 

 

I think the proof is in the pudding there Mr Snider...   You ABSOLUTELY overvalue players...

[Howie58]

Howdy:

 

If we really see a core (used generously) of only 3-4 players outside of our goalies--maybe there is no core.  Than we have disposable parts and "OBO" reasoning is sound.  I can't read Hexy's mind but the guy seems willing to take risks.  Hakstol builds youngsters.  If Stolarz is progressing--even breaking up the best goalie duo we've had in years may make sense. 

 

Nothing would surprise me.  Ultimately the best teams seem to be built through draft and Hexy knows that.  He might be willing to live with some more .500 seasons to build an elite squad by 2018.  This group may or may not make the playoffs.  And from what we've seen since 2008, a miracle run based on retreads and luck hasn't been the beginning of consistently good hockey leading to a Cup.  So...trades for picks and cap space may be the driver.  

 

Peace,

 

Howie

[elmatus]

A player who has never hit 25 goals in a season wants to demand $10M?

 

I'd be okay if he reproduced what he did last year on a more consistent basis. 80 pts is elite. Yeah, most of those were assists, but those assists mean he was driving the play and leading to goals. Plenty of elite players are assist machines, and that's fine. The problem of course is that he hasn't reproduced that this year.

 

I do also agree that PHI currently has a dearth of true snipers. G can produce reasonably well, but he's better off making plays than finishing them. He needs a wingman with a shot, which Voracek is not.

 

I do remember reading about the contract signing and feeling a pang in my gut about it. I'm hoping I was wrong in feeling that it was an overpayment. So far, it looks like I may have been right. Hopefully that changes.

 

Now, what's the return on this potential trade? Montreal's top pick isn't much. Does the trade somehow land us the Oilers top pick? That would be very intriguing. Montreal doesn't have a ton of money to toss around. I have a hard time thinking they could take on Voracek with the money they already have set. The Oilers on the other hand... History repeats right? If we can get a top 3 pick from the Oil, along with something else of value, I would think Hexy could be interested.

[radoran]

I'd be okay if he reproduced what he did last year on a more consistent basis. 80 pts is elite. Yeah, most of those were assists, but those assists mean he was driving the play and leading to goals. Plenty of elite players are assist machines, and that's fine. The problem of course is that he hasn't reproduced that this year.

 

For me, the problem is that the top line simply doesn't score enough. Regardless of assists. Especially at even strength.

 

Most other teams in the Metro (with the possible exception of New Jersey) and most of the Eastern Conference has more firepower up front. And that's our direct competition.

 

That's why I have serious concerns about building the team around two guy who, combined, have two seasons of 25+ goals in 14 seasons.

 

Hopefully that changes.

 

Few would be happier than me to be proven wrong.

[elmatus]

Kopitar, who is already 28, is reportedly close to an 8-year, $10M/aav contract extension.

 

Is he worth that as a 2nd line center?

 

Kopitar is a solid comparison actually, at least from a stats standpoint. By the end of December last year, he had all of 16 pts on the year. Jake is sitting on 13 going into December. This year, both players are underachieving -- Kopi has 14 pts right now -- and have been bumped down the line up as a result.

[radoran]

Kopitar is a solid comparison actually, at least from a stats standpoint. By the end of December last year, he had all of 16 pts on the year. Jake is sitting on 13 going into December. This year, both players are underachieving -- Kopi has 14 pts right now -- and have been bumped down the line up as a result.

 

The fly in that particular ointment is that Kopitar has all of one season of 80+ points and his most recent seasons have been

 

70 in 82

64 in 79

 

and this year, again, is projecting to

 

27 goals and 48 points this season.

 

Not a great trend line for a "$10M player"

 

On the plus side, Kopitar actually scores goals.

 

That said, if Kopitar is the embodiment of a "$10M player" in the NHL, they may as well go ahead and schedule the next lockout and figure out how much LA will have to pay him in a compliance buyout.

 

#fiscalresponsibility

[elmatus]

For me, the problem is that the top line simply doesn't score enough. Regardless of assists. Especially at even strength.

 

Most other teams in the Metro (with the possible exception of New Jersey) and most of the Eastern Conference has more firepower up front. And that's our direct competition.

 

That's why I have serious concerns about building the team around two guy who, combined, have two seasons of 25+ goals in 14 seasons.

 

 

 

 

Few would be happier than me to be proven wrong.

 

I do get that. However, I think there's a ton of value to guys who have enough playmaking ability to make a solid sniper out of lesser players. I think in an ideal setup. If Voracek could do that and someone like Schenn or whatever could reap the benefits by potting a bunch of goals off V's back, I'd be just fine with the 8 mil. The problem is neither of those things seem to be happening. Which means either the years of great Voracek were just a blip, or PHI just doesn't have any real snipers that could be elevated to a reasonable level -- or both.

[elmatus]

The fly in that particular ointment is that Kopitar has all of one season of 80+ points and his most recent seasons have been

 

70 in 82

64 in 79

 

and this year, again, is projecting to

 

27 goals and 48 points this season.

 

Not a great trend line for a "$10M player"

 

On the plus side, Kopitar actually scores goals.

 

That said, if Kopitar is the embodiment of a "$10M player" in the NHL, they may as well go ahead and schedule the next lockout and figure out how much LA will have to pay him in a compliance buyout.

 

#fiscalresponsibility

 

The problem is bars that are set by some players in the league quickly become the standard for all players in the league. The moment someone like Kopi signs that $10 mil contract, all Kopi-esque players will be looking for the $10mil contract. As the old saying goes, every thing is worth what someone will pay for it.

 

As a side note, I think Jonathan Toews has been one of if not the best player in the NHL over the last 5ish years. I think he has contributed to more playoff runs and cup wins than any player in the game today. I think he's the heart of what is really the only true dynasty of the last decade. And he's only hit 70 pts once in his career.

 

Voracek is not Toews. He never will be. However, Toews is very real proof that there is more to being one of the best than making a bunch of pts.

 

For Voracek to be elite, he does need to be putting up pts. Again, if that means mostly assists while someone else nabs the spotlight for V's hard work, that's cool.

[radoran]

However, Toews is very real proof that there is more to being one of the best than making a bunch of pts.

 

Sure, but I think we can agree that Kopitar is no Toews, either. And at least Toews hasn't scored less than 25 goals since potting 24 in 64 games his rookie year. I do put a higher value on goal scoring than on "points."

 

And I do like Kopitar as a player. He's just not a $10M player.

 

For that matter, I don't believe Toews or Kane are, either.

 

I don't think anyone in the league is worth 1/7 of their team's cap all by themselves. I just don't.

 

And, quite frankly, it will surprise me if the Blackhawks win another Cup with two players taking up 2/7 of their cap. They're currently tied for third in their division with two teams who have games in hand.

 

For Voracek to be elite, he does need to be putting up pts. Again, if that means mostly assists while someone else nabs the spotlight for V's hard work, that's cool.

 

I've said repeatedly on these boards that I see Voracek as a consistent 60+ point player. I just don't think that's worth $8M.

 

Again, no one will be happier than me if he proves me wrong.

[elmatus]

I've said repeatedly on these boards that I see Voracek as a consistent 60+ point player. I just don't think that's worth $8M.

 

I agree. That's exactly what I'm worried about as well.

 

As for CHI winning another cup, I wouldn't put it passed them at all. I absolutely do think they can do it again this year.

[aziz]

I agree. That's exactly what I'm worried about as well.

 

8 points in his last 9 games.  for the last three weeks, anyway, he has been back to his previous pace of just under a point/game.

[elmatus]

8 points in his last 9 games.  for the last three weeks, anyway, he has been back to his previous pace of just under a point/game.

 

We need more Azizes around here.

[aziz]

@elmatus

 

lol, exactly!

 

seriously, though, i think voracek will be fine, and more or less maintain that p/g pace.  he is a remarkable player in his ways, and a huge part of the team going forward.  there aren't many players that can control and protect the puck while finding useful things to do with it.  can't explain the first month of the season, but he has made his mark on the box scores since.

 

meanwhile, giroux has 11 points in his last 10 games.  the both of them struggled inexplicably and badly out of the gate, but look to have settled down and gotten to effective work.