Ghost is a problem

[vis]

5 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

He was a goober. 

Lol, that's best description of Pitkanen.  

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, murraycraven said:

 

Kind of sounds like the description for G too

 

Amen. The 29 year old Captain. Who's turnover lead directly to a goal...

[fanaticV3.0]

18 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Kinda gives some credence to Hextall's argument that guys should "develop" in the A, don't it? (Not saying you disagree with that). Reading this, I already knew @fanaticV3.0 was gonna mention Couturier, but honestly there's not a lot of opportunity in the NHL to "use speed to cover your mistakes." You have to learn how not to make them in the first place. And doing so in the NHL can be very problematic. Teams build the proverbial "book" on you and know how to exploit weaknesses.

 

Kid came in, flew under the radar, made a big name for himself especially in 3-on-3 and the power play (22 of 46 points were on the pp, 4 of 5 GWGs were in overtime...)

 

And is having trouble in his second year playing 5-on-5?

 

Maybe he just needs to be named an All Star....

 

Both the pp and OT are places where "speed" can be used much more than it can 5-on-5. Of the "offensively minded" defensemen, Gotstobehere was always the third in line after Provolone and Samhain when it came to projections.

 

I am not advocating trading him for a skate sharpener but if you can solve a big problem by moving him, I would certainly not be against it just because "he could wind up being good somewhere else."

 

If nothing else, this definitely lowers the bar on the "bridge" contract he's going to be getting as an RFA after the season.

 

Then why is he with the big club? If that is Hextall's philosophy then stick to it. okay, maybe they brought them up too soon to begin with. Fine, then fix it by sending him back down (I know they're not going to do this). Why did Hextall not follow his own rules?

 

Completely agreed. I want something that resembles the player we had last year, but feel the same way about his long-term future with the team.

[fanaticV3.0]

18 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I'm glad you hit it after I went through the trouble to tee it up for you 

 

I like saying it because it's true and it pisses @flyercanuckoff.

[mojo1917]

Just now, fanaticV3.0 said:

Then why is he with the big club? If that is Hextall's philosophy then stick to it. okay, maybe they brought them up too soon to begin with. Fine, then fix it by sending him back down (I know they're not going to do this). Why did Hextall not follow his own rules?

 

Is there a better option than him on the roster ?

that's a serious question.

Is Hagg ready ? how about Sanheim ? is Shultz better ? Is MDZ healthy, is his head not between some porn star's thighs ? 

Hextall's philosophy has been -you make the team when you're the best player.  My thought as to why Ghost is still with the big club is he's the best player warts and all.

 

[fanaticV3.0]

18 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I disagree with this.

He's from Florida... you know, the hockey hotbed, he's small, he didn't play major junior ....yet somehow still made it to the NHL. By some miracle, he was a finalist for the Calder trophy.

I think he is probably "mentally tough".  He's already overcome a bunch of biases.  I think a benching or a reassignment won't phase him. 

 

I think this is sheer talent more than anything else. I think everything you said a few posts back about his offense of game, talent, and skills  was true. We've seen that. We haven't seem mental toughness from them. If anything, he's looked the opposite. He started the season poorly and it's just spiraled out of control ever since.

[fanaticV3.0]

18 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Benching him and expecting him to suddenly have a different skill set however will confuse and frustrate him.  

It's just dumb.

 

Benching a player who is playing poorly is dumb? Now. that's dumb.

 

Also, f-ck Corsi. Made up nonsense. His +/- is the worst team – and anyone on this board and knows me knows that I can't stand that stat; but I'll take it over that made up crap every day of the week.

 

You are going to too trouble to make excuses for him.

[radoran]

42 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Then why is he with the big club? If that is Hextall's philosophy then stick to it. okay, maybe they brought them up too soon to begin with. Fine, then fix it by sending him back down (I know they're not going to do this). Why did Hextall not follow his own rules?

 

Completely agreed. I want something that resembles the player we had last year, but feel the same way about his long-term future with the team.

 

Hextall's "rules" include the concept that if a player "plays his way into a role" that he stays on the team.

 

I would bet that he would have preferred not to bring up Ghost and his hand was forced by a number of things including injury and salary cap. And I am pretty sure he would have wanted to send him back down, but with the production Ghost was providing, the player made it impossible.

 

Not to mention the outcry from the fanbase had he done so.

 

Quite frankly, I'm worried by the concept that he "can't be sent down" and is too mentally fragile to handle it. That's not what I'm looking for in a player. You're 23 - go work on your game and come back as a better player and a better asset for the organization.

 

Again, the flip side is that his "bridge" deal keeps getting cheaper...

[King Knut]

21 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Benching a player who is playing poorly is dumb? Now. that's dumb.

 

Also, f-ck Corsi. Made up nonsense. His +/- is the worst team – and anyone on this board and knows me knows that I can't stand that stat; but I'll take it over that made up crap every day of the week.

 

You are going to too trouble to make excuses for him.

 

benching him for sucking isn't dumb.  benching him for not being a completely different player than he is is and not allowing/encouraging him to do what he does well is dumb.  

 

Ignoring Corsi is dumb too.

 

Clearly, and I mean CLEARLY it's not the be all end all.  

But when someone claims that a player is giving up more chances than they're making, but their Corsi is well above 50 and the third highest on the team, then that someone is clearly full of crap and doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

If they said, "they break down and give up high quality at key moments and simply aren't scoring as much as they used to" then they'd have a point.  But the other way of putting it is simply dead wrong and Corsi proves it.  That's the main reason for me bringing up Corsi in this particular discussion.

[fanaticV3.0]

14 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I overstated the case a bit with Hitchcock/Pitkanen. 

 

Hitchcock didn't destroy him.  Pitkanen was going to do that all by himself. 

 

But just the same, I refuse to believe he was decent for one season BECAUSE of Hitchcock.  I'm not buying that no matter how it's packaged. 

 

And I don't want Mr. themaker03 anywhere near the Flyers. 

 

There are guys I put on Hitchcock though. His handling of Williams ans Sharp speaks for itself. Pitkanen was just a nose-pickingbuffoon.

 

I would give him credit for Primeau and Gagne though.

 

Weird guy. He reminds me of someone who sits back and sniggers to himself, but when someone notices and asks him what he was laughing about he just says, "Oh, nothing." I think he probably likes movies that aren't funny even though they are labeled as a comedy (like a Wes Anderson flick). Kinda of makes since he married she who shall not be named.

[King Knut]

19 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

There are guys I put on Hitchcock though. His handling of Williams ans Sharp speaks for itself. Pitkanen was just a nose-pickingbuffoon.

 

I would give him credit for Primeau and Gagne though.

 

Weird guy. He reminds me of someone who sits back and sniggers to himself, but when someone notices and asks him what he was laughing about he just says, "Oh, nothing." I think he probably likes movies that aren't funny even though they are labeled as a comedy (like a Wes Anderson flick). Kinda of makes since he married she who shall not be named.

 

You forgot Rusty.  In fact, imagine... Rusty, Willy and Sharp could have been on a line together.  Imagine if that's our third line in 2008-2012?

 

Although I admit, I have no idea about his wife,  what's the problem with her?  Why's she so awful?

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Then why is he with the big club? If that is Hextall's philosophy then stick to it. okay, maybe they brought them up too soon to begin with. Fine, then fix it by sending him back down (I know they're not going to do this). Why did Hextall not follow his own rules?

 

Completely agreed. I want something that resembles the player we had last year, but feel the same way about his long-term future with the team.

 

He needs a better pairing and he needs to be unleashed and his pinching compensated for by a winger pulling back to cover the hole he leaves.

 

Honestly, if you're not going to do this with Ghost and empower him to do what he does well, you might as well not have him and you might as well trade him for something you can use.

 

He'd be fun to watch and would make the game more exciting if he was unleashed to skate more.  If you have a Lyubimov or a Read type on your team that can skate and cover for him, then you can utilize him in this way, but you can't send out your d pairing with the same forwards the whole time, that's limiting... so I really don't know.  You can't ask Voracek or Simmonds to cover for him (but maybe Raffl).

 

It's a totally different system built around the skills of one guy.  

 

But it's the best way to utilize him.  Other than that you have to just work on why he isn't hitting the net as much of the PP (he doesn't have as much time IMHO).

[fanaticV3.0]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Is there a better option than him on the roster ?

that's a serious question.

Is Hagg ready ? how about Sanheim ? is Shultz better ? Is MDZ healthy, is his head not between some porn star's thighs ? 

Hextall's philosophy has been -you make the team when you're the best player.  My thought as to why Ghost is still with the big club is he's the best player warts and all.

 

 

I think the last thing that I'm doing is rushing one of the Phantoms right now. We don't need multiple prospects with confidence issues right now. I personally would not mind if he was sent down, but I also don't think he can handle it. I would probably rotate him in and out of the lineup depending on he is playing. I wouldn't be  nervous or hesitant to play Shultz or MDZ in place of time. MacDonald, well there's another story.

[OccamsRazor]

So why would someone think Ghost couldn't handle being sent back to the Phantoms???

 

How does one draw this conclusion??? How would someone here know what he could or couldn't handle??

 

Even when he has been benched he has taken it like a pro or a man never saying anything otherwise...so why now do folks think he couldn't handle it?? 

[fanaticV3.0]

53 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Hextall's "rules" include the concept that if a player "plays his way into a role" that he stays on the team.

 

I would bet that he would have preferred not to bring up Ghost and his hand was forced by a number of things including injury and salary cap. And I am pretty sure he would have wanted to send him back down, but with the production Ghost was providing, the player made it impossible.

 

Not to mention the outcry from the fanbase had he done so.

 

Quite frankly, I'm worried by the concept that he "can't be sent down" and is too mentally fragile to handle it. That's not what I'm looking for in a player. You're 23 - go work on your game and come back as a better player and a better asset for the organization.

 

Again, the flip side is that his "bridge" deal keeps getting cheaper...

 

Who was hurt/what were the salary-cap issues at the time? I don't remember. Because looking at his stats he only had something like 20 games in the AHL. That is an insufficient amount of time to make a judgment call on a player, especially if you're all about "developing" their game through the farm system.

 

Piss of the fans. Let em get upset. I'm not making personnel decisions based on what may or may not please them. Plus, Flyers fans are sheep. We all know they're going to go to the games regardless.

 

Same here. It is partly why I started the conversation. He is playing very poorly. That's problem number one. On top of that, we can't scratch him or send him to the minors because it might hurt his feelings?

[fanaticV3.0]

33 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

You forgot Rusty.  In fact, imagine... Rusty, Willy and Sharp could have been on a line together.  Imagine if that's our third line in 2008-2012?

 

Although I admit, I have no idea about his wife,  what's the problem with her?  Why's she so awful?

 

How much time and alcohol do you have?

[radoran]

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Although I admit, I have no idea about his wife,  what's the problem with her?  Why's she so awful?

 

This dates back to the silly.com days when she was an "undercover" poster who had more than a few run-ins with posters that are still on this site.

 

(They were not married at the time)

[fanaticV3.0]

20 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

So why would someone think Ghost couldn't handle being sent back to the Phantoms???

 

How does one draw this conclusion??? How would someone here know what he could or couldn't handle??

 

Even when he has been benched he has taken it like a pro or a man never saying anything otherwise...so why now do folks think he couldn't handle it?? 

 

We are just guessing/throwing thoughts out there. I think it is probably based on the fact that he has absolutely no confidence in his game right now and sending him down could just make him feel worse about himself.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

We are just guessing/throwing thoughts out there. I think it is probably based on the fact that he has absolutely no confidence in his game right now and sending him down could just make him feel worse about himself.

 

Well i wouldn't send him down just yet.

 

Besides they way i have seen everyone on this team play like crap...hard to just single out Ghost and TK.

 

However it can't hurt them to watch from above while they sort out some of the many issues that plague this team.

 

It hurts this team a lot that they don't have a solid defensive defenseman they can lean on. Ivan almost by default is the best guy in his defensive zone.

 

They have too many offensive type Dmen Ghost, Streit and MDZ and no real solid stay at home guys to pair them with. Gudas is ok but he is still learning too.

 

And Schultz and Mcdud are well...you know barely serviceable.

 

This group will be lucky to make the playoffs. 

[mojo1917]

14 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

Who was hurt/what were the salary-cap issues at the time? I don't remember.

It was Methuselah Striet.

He was out 4 to 6 weeks 

 

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

We are just guessing/throwing thoughts out there. I think it is probably based on the fact that he has absolutely no confidence in his game right now and sending him down could just make him feel worse about himself.

 

I'm just not sure I see the point other than it being better conditioning than having him be the 7th or 8th man in the press box.  

What's he going to get out of it?  

 

It's not going to make him bigger.  It's not going to make it so teams don't double him on the PP.  It's not going to make it so Hakstol encourages him to do what made him great last year and made up for his lack of size and his tendency to be out of position.

 

There's a certain degree of sophomore slump going on here, but I do still think this is a problem that has far more to do with the pairings (Ghost, Streit, MDZ and Mac on the same team is a recipe for a ton of bad goals) and Hakstol's inability to figure out how to use Ghost to his advantage while not leaving his partner alone to cover 1/3 of the ice surface.    

[radoran]

40 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

So why would someone think Ghost couldn't handle being sent back to the Phantoms???

 

How does one draw this conclusion??? How would someone here know what he could or couldn't handle??

 

Even when he has been benched he has taken it like a pro or a man never saying anything otherwise...so why now do folks think he couldn't handle it?? 

 

This has been asserted in this thread by Other Posters.

 

vis mentioned it specifically, but others have alluded to the idea that he's essentially "got to learn at the NHL level."

 

Again, I don't agree with it. But it's not like either fanatic or I came up with the idea.

 

[mojo1917]

10 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

I think it is probably based on the fact that he has absolutely no confidence in his game right now and sending him down could just make him feel worse about himself.

 

Or, he could get sent down and dominate, get his confidence back and be a better NHL player. 

He has the skating ability to rule the AHL, a trip to LV could also be the best thing for him. 

Especially if Gordon is told what areas to work on with Ghost so they translate back to the Flyers. 

I do understand what you are saying, I also think one doesn't get to the NHL without having some intestinal fortitude.

And if the demotion does further damage to his psyche and he washes out, then we'll know he's not the guy.

[King Knut]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

This has been asserted in this thread by Other Posters.

 

vis mentioned it specifically, but others have alluded to the idea that he's essentially "got to learn at the NHL level."

 

Again, I don't agree with it. But it's not like either fanatic or came up with the idea.

 

 

Again, I just don't see what the point would be.  What has to happen for Ghost to improve isn't going to happen at the AHL level.  making him a different D man is a terrible idea that simply won't work (as we've seen this year).  Trade him before continuing to waste time doing that.  

 

Hell we can't play all the prospects anyway.  Send Ghost packing for a good offer, it'll be better for everyone than whatever the hell Hakstol thinks he's doing with him now.  

 

I don't think it's the best choice but if Hextall thinks Ghost is going to become a Provo like player and wants him to go to the AHL to forget everything that makes him great, then I'd just as soon Ghost sent out of town for some positive scoring up front or a Vet D man presence like Hakstol seems to insist Ghost should become.

[radoran]

30 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said:

 

Who was hurt/what were the salary-cap issues at the time? I don't remember. Because looking at his stats he only had something like 20 games in the AHL. That is an insufficient amount of time to make a judgment call on a player, especially if you're all about "developing" their game through the farm system.

 

IIRC, it was Streit's injury. They brought up Ghost because he had a "similar skillset" and they needed someone to work the power play.