Hextall's Offseason Moves

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

What I will say is that Luca Sbisa was excellent and should have been a knockout NHL player.  He was sent back to juniors where his coach reportedly played him 40 minutes a night because he was just so damn good.

 

He lost A TON of weight.  When they tried to bring him back to the NHL on his new team he got hurt.  He was never the same.  It's a shame.  But Sbisa though a bit small, was an extremely promising player for the Flyers.  

 

Further proof Homer just didn't even know how to develop the players once he did get them....more why he traded picks for guys who could help now...it was a flawed strategy...and also why he isn't GM anymore sadly it took Snider to long to figure this out. 

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Further proof Homer just didn't even know how to develop the players once he did get them....more why he traded picks for guys who could help now...it was a flawed strategy...and also why he isn't GM anymore sadly it took Snider to long to figure this out. 

 

In fairness to Homer, I'm increasingly of the opinion that these intense win now moves were made (and became increasingly desperate and seemingly nonsensical) after Snider got sick.  

 

I now assume Homer took his eye off the ball because he wanted to keep Ed happy or at least hopeful.  

 

It was unsustainable and the wheels fell off before we finally lost Mr. Snider.  But I hope he had hope for the future after he was gone when he went.  He should have.  It's a shame he won't be around to see it.  

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 It's a shame he won't be around to see it.

 

Hell i hope i'm around to see it.

[King Knut]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Hell i hope i'm around to see it.

 

I think that sometimes. Mostly as a joke, but I'm pretty sure I am gonna be really pissed off at Holmgren if I die before they win another cup.  

[AJgoal]

10 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

In fairness to Homer, I'm increasingly of the opinion that these intense win now moves were made (and became increasingly desperate and seemingly nonsensical) after Snider got sick.  

 

 

I guess, thats possible, but Snider was diagnosed after Hextall became GM, in May 2014. He was in remission in August. Given what I've seen of cancer, it's highly unlikely that Snider would have been either showing symptoms or undergoing treatment for 2-3 years without someone noticing, and the likelyhood of remission that quickly after prolonged non treatment seems low (@pilldoc?). The talk was always about how he was getting old, never an inkling of a sickness.

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

I guess, thats possible, but Snider was diagnosed after Hextall became GM, in May 2014. He was in remission in August. Given what I've seen of cancer, it's highly unlikely that Snider would have been either showing symptoms or undergoing treatment for 2-3 years without someone noticing, and the likelyhood of remission that quickly after prolonged non treatment seems low (@pilldoc?). The talk was always about how he was getting old, never an inkling of a sickness.

 

Well that's assuming everything was made public and that we knew everything as it was happening.   Cancers come and go into remission.  You can get sick, almost die, then recover and be well for years.  But seriously, I really don't know much about it.  I'm just trying to find a way to give Homer SOME kind of benefit of SOME doubt.  He did an amazing job screwing up the team and I have no better explanation.

[AJgoal]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Well that's assuming everything was made public and that we knew everything as it was happening.   Cancers come and go into remission.  You can get sick, almost die, then recover and be well for years.  But seriously, I really don't know much about it.  I'm just trying to find a way to give Homer SOME kind of benefit of SOME doubt.  He did an amazing job screwing up the team and I have no better explanation.

Sure, happened to my dad. Went into remission, it popped up in his brain months later, and he was dead in two days. But it's hard to hide the effect of treatment. I don't remember Snider disappearing from sight like he did last year. He was too public a figure. Maybe I give the beats too much credit, but someone would have noticed, I think.

[OccamsRazor]

Now or at the draft would be a good time to kick the tires of a Drouin trade.

 

Not on the table would be any of the young Dmen.

 

I'd offer none of the following Ivan, Ghost, Morin, Sanheim, Morin or Myers. The future blueline is not in play.

 

I'd offer Friedman, Laughton, Weal and beyond even draft picks.

 

And if it must be a 1st round pick then i would give them 2018 1st.

 

And if it must be one the 6 Dmen i say thanks Steve and hand up the phone. Just kicking the tires.

[radoran]

25 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Now or at the draft would be a good time to kick the tires of a Drouin trade.

 

Not on the table would be any of the young Dmen.

 

I'd offer none of the following Ivan, Ghost, Morin, Sanheim, Morin or Myers. The future blueline is not in play.

 

I'd offer Friedman, Laughton, Weal and beyond even draft picks.

 

And if it must be a 1st round pick then i would give them 2018 1st.

 

And if it must be one the 6 Dmen i say thanks Steve and hand up the phone. Just kicking the tires.

 

Weal's not even signed and as a UFA you can't even send his rights. I had to look up who Friedman was, and likely Yzerman would, too. A third round, 86th overall?

 

Laughton's rights at this point aren't worth the ink and the paper on his qualifying offer.

 

And that's going to land you a 20/50 forward who was the third overall pick? Why not throw in Weise, Raffl and MacDonald, too?

 

Good luck with that. Why would Tampa want any of that dreck? You wouldn't need to hang up on Yzerman, you would be able to hear the laughter from Tampa even once he put the phone down.

 

Drouin's not a bad target, but you're going to have to give a LOT more to get Drouin. I wouldn't be opposed to dealing a young defenceman to land a potential cornerstone LW to go on Giroux's wing. I might even been inclined to look at sending a Sanheim or a Morin.

[OccamsRazor]

53 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Weal's not even signed and as a UFA you can't even send his rights. I had to look up who Friedman was, and likely Yzerman would, too. A third round, 86th overall?

 

Laughton's rights at this point aren't worth the ink and the paper on his qualifying offer.

 

And that's going to land you a 20/50 forward who was the third overall pick? Why not throw in Weise, Raffl and MacDonald, too?

 

Good luck with that. Why would Tampa want any of that dreck? You wouldn't need to hang up on Yzerman, you would be able to hear the laughter from Tampa even once he put the phone down.

 

Drouin's not a bad target, but you're going to have to give a LOT more to get Drouin. I wouldn't be opposed to dealing a young defenceman to land a potential cornerstone LW to go on Giroux's wing. I might even been inclined to look at sending a Sanheim or a Morin.

 

I said we could throw a 1st rounder in next year's draft.

 

And besides this would be the start of the negotiations which i would would it have to be one of the young Dmen i mentioned.

 

And then go from there the price very well could be to steep.

 

And Friedmen projects to a top 4 Dman.

 

Drouin hasn't exactly done awhole lot himself.

 

It more than likely could be thanks but no thanks.

 

If they would entertain this year's 2nd and next year's 1st that might be a good trade...i'd prefer to move a forward already under contract too but i haven't looked at Tampa's cap situation yet....

[radoran]

4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Drouin hasn't exactly done awhole lot himself.

 

It more than likely could be thanks but no thanks.

 

If they would entertain this year's 2nd and next year's 1st that might be a good trade...i'd prefer to move a forward already under contract too but i haven't looked at Tampa's cap situation yet....

 

Drouin just scored 21 goals and 53 points as a 22 year old.

 

That's more than a lot of guys. In fact, it's 10th overall among RFAs for points and 8th overall among RFAs for goals scored.

 

Those numbers also place him 5th on the Flyers for points and 3rd on the Flyers for goals.

 

Again, he's a great target as a trade option. It would just take something significant to get him.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Drouin just scored 21 goals and 53 points as a 22 year old.

 

That's more than a lot of guys. In fact, it's 10th overall among RFAs for points and 8th overall among RFAs for goals scored.

 

Those numbers also place him 5th on the Flyers for points and 3rd on the Flyers for goals.

 

Again, he's a great target as a trade option. It would just take something significant to get him.

 

As i said sure he is worth something it is why i'd be looking to trade for him.

 

But at a reasonable price.

 

I think a 2nd this year and a 1st next is a good price.

 

I'd be willing to throw in a prospect as well and maybe a sericable forward to.

[OccamsRazor]

I can't look at Capfriendly at work for whatever reason it's blocked go figure.

 

But i comment on cap implications on said trade.

[elmatus]

6 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

As i said sure he is worth something it is why i'd be looking to trade for him.

 

But at a reasonable price.

 

I think a 2nd this year and a 1st next is a good price.

 

I'd be willing to throw in a prospect as well and maybe a sericable forward to.

 

This is likely not enough for Drouin. Honestly, I have a hard time thinking of any suitable trade proposal that might pry him out of Tampa. Sure, we could offer some combo that includes our future blueline (or this year's no.2 pick), but that wouldn't be a very smart move.

 

I remember Drouin from juniors was a force. He was also quite hyped as a third overall pick that year. For possible reference, the Drouin train is easily on par with either of the no.2 picks we might get this year. 

[JJMason33]

3 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

This is likely not enough for Drouin. Honestly, I have a hard time thinking of any suitable trade proposal that might pry him out of Tampa. Sure, we could offer some combo that includes our future blueline (or this year's no.2 pick), but that wouldn't be a very smart move.

 

I remember Drouin from juniors was a force. He was also quite hyped as a third overall pick that year. For possible reference, the Drouin train is easily on par with either of the no.2 picks we might get this year. 

Due to the inflation factor of young defenseman you should be able to get Drouin for Ghost and maybe a 3rd.  A proven young offensive d-man for a proven young offensive forward.  I'm ok with that deal.

 

Drouin-Giroux-Voracek

Konecny-Filppula-Simmonds

Schenn-Couturier-Weise

Lindblom-#2-Vecchione

PEB/Raffl/Read (2 of whoever is left after draft for 13th forward)

 

Provorov-Morin

Manning-Sanheim

Hagg-Gudas

MacDonald

 

Nuevirth

Stolarz/Lyons

[radoran]

Going with the theory that you have to spend something to get something, acquiring a 22yo 20/50 player isn't going to be cheap.

 

Going with another theory that the salary cap requires that teams keep a steady supply of (cheap) young talent cycling into the lineup, the Flyers aren't likely to see all six of the "blue line of the future" in the lineup for the next decade, it is not at all unreasonable to deal from a position of strength to fill a position of need.

 

I don't know what Tampa might want to give up Drouin, but I don't see Yzerman dealing his bird in hand for a couple of (likely) mid round picks in the bush.

 

All that said, would you trade Schenn+ for Drouin? Would Tampa TAKE Schenn+ for Drouin?

 

My thoughts are "yes" and "maybe" (pending what the + is).

 

@JJMason33

I don't mind Ghost+ for Drouin, either. It might take slightly more than a 3, but that's not an unreasonable starting point.

[mojo1917]

Watching the way the Predators defense has been allowing the forwards to forecheck like demons has been fun and I hope  a preview for how our team will play.  The thought of Sanheim, Ghost, Provorov Meyers, Hagg, Ghost and Morin  on our blue line makes me want to hang on to them all... If your d is mobile and skilled it makes everything else easier. I don't know if think I would part with any of those guys for Jonathan Drouin.

[radoran]

7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Watching the way the Predators defense has been allowing the forwards to forecheck like demons has been fun and I hope  a preview for how our team will play.  The thought of Sanheim, Ghost, Provorov Meyers, Hagg, Ghost and Morin  on our blue line makes me want to hang on to them all... If your d is mobile and skilled it makes everything else easier. I don't know if think I would part with any of those guys for Jonathan Drouin.

 

The issue for me with the "blueline of the future" is the concept of keeping them all long term. Odds are that, eventually, you simply won't be able to afford all of them. What is Ghost going to cost to re-sign - is it long-term or a bridge deal? Morin and Hagg are going to need new deals after next season - if they have emerged as significant NHL defensemen, what do they cost? Sanheim and Provolone are up the year after that. Having shown what he has already, I've got to imagine Proviewit is getting upwards of what Maatta got from Pittsburgh ($4M - and he may not lock himself up for the six years Maatta did).

 

Do you hold onto them until you risk losing them for, effectively, nothing in free agency - or do you make a deal from a position of strength to fill a position of need? (There's also the matter that it's unlikely that all six spots are going to be open for these kids to come in in the next two years what with Gudas and MacDud under contract).

 

All of this Drouin talk is likely academic as he seems to have worked on/through his issues and would seem to me to be a significant building block for the Bolts going forward. But aside from Provo, I'm not holding anyone as "untouchable" if I'm Hextall.

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, JJMason33 said:

Due to the inflation factor of young defenseman you should be able to get Drouin for Ghost and maybe a 3rd.  A proven young offensive d-man for a proven young offensive forward.  I'm ok with that deal.

 

Drouin-Giroux-Voracek

Konecny-Filppula-Simmonds

Schenn-Couturier-Weise

Lindblom-#2-Vecchione

PEB/Raffl/Read (2 of whoever is left after draft for 13th forward)

 

Provorov-Morin

Manning-Sanheim

Hagg-Gudas

MacDonald

 

Nuevirth

Stolarz/Lyons

 

I think Ghost+ could be made to work, but i'm really not sure it would be in Tampa's best interest. Again, Drouin has a very high ceiling. It's obviously too early to tell if he'll reach it. If he does, he would almost certainly be more valuable to a team than Ghost. 

[JJMason33]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Watching the way the Predators defense has been allowing the forwards to forecheck like demons has been fun and I hope  a preview for how our team will play.  The thought of Sanheim, Ghost, Provorov Meyers, Hagg, Ghost and Morin  on our blue line makes me want to hang on to them all... If your d is mobile and skilled it makes everything else easier. I don't know if think I would part with any of those guys for Jonathan Drouin.

Well you are likely going to have to part with one for free then at the next expansion draft. I would rather turn one into Drouin now.

[JJMason33]

14 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I think Ghost+ could be made to work, but i'm really not sure it would be in Tampa's best interest. Again, Drouin has a very high ceiling. It's obviously too early to tell if he'll reach it. If he does, he would almost certainly be more valuable to a team than Ghost. 

Tampa has 2 problems, 1 is cap and 2 is defenseman.  Drouin like Ghost is also a UFA.  Maybe our side of the "plus" is to sign ghost long-term to a cap friendly price before trading for RFA Drouin.  I could also add in a few small picks, but honestly the value of a player like Ghost is almost on par for Drouin.

[mojo1917]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

Provolone are up the year after that. Having shown what he has already, I've got to imagine Proviewit

I know it's maybe less fun, but provolone and proviewit are as many letters (more) than provorov.

 

having a hard time buying into this one...definitely not on par with VeeGees TM  which is great. 

 

I do get the point of not being able to keep all the young defensemen in the fold.  I just like the thought of cycling them through the way Nashville has. Nsh traded Shea Weber and Seth Jones and got "better" now that's organizational depth. 

I would also be open to moving Ghost, I like him but if he's able to fetch a useful forward in a trade i'd think about it. I guess I've not gotten over Drouin's pouty fit about playing time and role.  I don't think I'm interested in that kind of guy on our team.

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, JJMason33 said:

Tampa has 2 problems, 1 is cap and 2 is defenseman.  Drouin like Ghost is also a UFA.  Maybe our side of the "plus" is to sign ghost long-term to a cap friendly price before trading for RFA Drouin.  I could also add in a few small picks, but honestly the value of a player like Ghost is almost on par for Drouin.

 

I wouldn't say their value is on par. They've both been around for about the same time (though Drouin is younger). They've both managed some good seasons and some bad. Maybe when all is said and done, they'll be about on par, or maybe Ghost will even end up being a more effective player at this level. We won't know the answer to that for a while. 

 

That said, Drouin has two aces Ghost doesn't. For starters, he's been under the scope for many years as a top prospect. That's because he's been in the top echelon of players at every level. In his draft year, there was no doubt he would be one of the first to go. Everyone figured he would be an elite force at the NHL, as he had everywhere else. 

 

That really doesn't apply to Ghost. Ghost came into his own much later. Because of this, there remains more uncertainty for Ghost than Drouin. If Ghost never meets the lofty expectations set in his rookie year, he'll go down as a guy who showed some promise for a while but ultimately didn't pan out. If Drouin becomes anything less than an elite forward, he will be seen as a considerable flop. 

 

Secondly, Drouin is much more important to Tampa than Ghost is to the Flyers, or than he would be in Tampa for that matter.  Drouin is currently their highest potential young player, and is really the only such young player they have who is expected to play at an elite level (Kucherov notwithstanding). For Ghost, the situation is very different. He'll never be the top dman in his time in Philly. He lost that title in year two of his time at this level, and there's a good chance others will end up higher than him in the pecking order in years to come. 

 

That isn't to say Ghost isn't a great player, or that he won't continue to grow going forward. As with any young player comparison, there's no telling how things will pan out in 3-4-5 years as both of them get more experience. Still, for the time being, i would say Drouin's value is definitely above that of Ghost. In fact, given Drouin's important slot on the Bolts, it's hard to imagine a trade that wouldn't be an overpayment at this point. I wouldn't take the risk myself. 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I do get the point of not being able to keep all the young defensemen in the fold.  I just like the thought of cycling them through the way Nashville has. Nsh traded Shea Weber and Seth Jones and got "better" now that's organizational depth. 

 

I would also be open to moving Ghost, I like him but if he's able to fetch a useful forward in a trade i'd think about it. I guess I've not gotten over Drouin's pouty fit about playing time and role.  I don't think I'm interested in that kind of guy on our team.

 

NSH did trade Weber for another established defenseman, but the Jones trade is a great example.

 

I understand the reticence with Drouin - and I share a lot of it. He just happens to neatly fill what is a pretty gaping hole at LW at this point (pending the arrival and success of Lindblom, etc.).

 

I really don't see Tampa moving him unless they get overpaid. Fun fact: Drouin was the third highest (and youngest) LW FA for points last season. You don't get that for spare parts and mid round picks.

 

Looking at the list - I wouldn't be averse to a 2-3 year deal for Vanek at/around his current $2.6M number...

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

He'll never be the top dman in his time in Philly.

 

 

Good points made on both accounts. But to trade Ghost to soon before you even know how good he could be would be a huge under sell for Ron too.

 

However once Ghost moves on and wins a title with Tampa it would get many great chances to create more bitch threads in place of the Carter and Richards (and Sharp too) traded to soon ones that pop up once a week...just sayin...

 

 

...however Drouin would give the Flyers the goal scorer they need...i sit on top of the fence!!!