Sign Jagr

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Interesting.

 

I just don't like Konecny on the left side or Filpulla on the right.  I'm wondering that the majority of fans don't seem to know what positions their players actually play.

 

That's the big switch.  I'd rather have Filppula with Patrick and Simmonds anyway.

Konecny did well with Couturier last year anyway.   

 

Matt Read and Dale Weise... out in the cold.  I can't disagree.  Lehtera might have the edge just by nature of being a center and having more PK experience than Weise.  If Lehtera doesn't set himself apart, I think he's an easy candidate to be waived.  

 

[murraycraven]

I have a question?   Did we sign Jagr yet?

[OccamsRazor]

21 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

but what do you think of the pairings on defefence?

 

 

I'm think it could be more like this (with some adjustments to some of the forwards moving around)more towards the end of next year...like come march...Sanheim more than likely starts in the AHL.

[vis]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

Does it stand to reason? I'd argue that it doesn't.  While you're right in that PEB and VDV were their top penalty killers in terms of minutes... Do we really think of them as good players though?  Were they the best options?  Why do we assume that?  Do the numbers bear that out?  Simply put, the numbers tell a completely different story.  They were in fact horrible in comparison.

Outside of Giroux, why would the coach dress VDV and PMB if he had better options (e.g., Read, Weise, Raffl, Laughton, etc.)? 

 

Quote

Are you betting on that?

Yes, more than I'm betting on the PK improving.

 

Again, I'm still having a hard time reconciling your apparent view that having young players and/or vets with little track record on the PP is no bueno, but you appear very comfortable that having young players and/or vets with little track record on the PK will result in significant improvement.  Especially since PK is more challenging of the two specialty teams.  And especially where the young kids slotted for the PP have demonstrated ability, albeit at lower levels, to produce offensively.

 

For the record, I disagree with your statement that, over his career, Filppula is a terrible PP player.  True, he didn't play much in TB last year and he did not put up points with the Flyers.  But he did put up very respectable numbers in 14/15 (17 points), led TB in PP points in 13/14 (20 PTS).  Meanwhile, Couturier has never put up more than 7PTS on the PP and is coming off a year in which he had 2A as the center on the second unit.  I'd say Filppula is a candidate to play the PP.

[vis]

53 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

I have a question?   Did we sign Jagr yet?

Yes, he's playing the first PK unit with Laughton.

[vis]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

Interesting.

 

I just don't like Konecny on the left side or Filpulla on the right.  I'm wondering that the majority of fans don't seem to know what positions their players actually play.

Or the coaches.

 

If they stay with Konecny on the left, I have no issue with the second line.  Like the idea of the young guys playing with Simmonds.  

 

However, my recollection is that Filppula played LW last year.  I don't know if he's ever played the right side.  So, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to move him there at this point.  if you can't move him to the right, then someone else would have to move to that side and that should be Konecny.

 

That is one soft group of forwards.  

 

 

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, vis said:

Outside of Giroux, why would the coach dress VDV and PMB if he had better options (e.g., Read, Weise, Raffl, Laughton, etc.)? 

 

 

-Because Raffl was already getting top line minutes, Laughton was in the AHL, Read was already playing on the PK to the tune of 1 minute per night and maybe Weise really does just suck at the PK and shouldn't be there.  Though more likely if he didn't put VDV and PEB on the PK then they'd only be playing 7 and 9 minutes a night respectively.  

 

Really... let's not come into this thread and just pretend that every Flyers fan in the world hasn't been scratching his/her head on the over use of PEB and VDV for the past two years, shall we?  

 

5 minutes ago, vis said:

Yes, more than I'm betting on the PK improving.

 

But you're betting that the PK is going to do worse.    All I'm saying is that if the PK remains slightly below  average and the 2nd Unit PP BECOMES slightly below average, it'll be a huge improvement.

 

Also, who is the free agent PK specialist you'd sign?  Is there one out there?  

 

5 minutes ago, vis said:

Again, I'm still having a hard time reconciling your apparent view that having young players and/or vets with little track record on the PP is no bueno, but you appear very comfortable that having young players and/or vets with little track record on the PK will result in significant improvement.  Especially since PK is more challenging of the two specialty teams.  And especially where the young kids slotted for the PP have demonstrated ability, albeit at lower levels, to produce offensively.

 

 

You're having a hard time with it because that's not what I'm saying at all.    I'm not saying the PK will improve.  I'm saying it doesn't have to for the team to get better because it would have to go from mediocre to the best in the league for that to make a dent.

 

I'd rather put energy into improving the 2nd PP unit because if it could score a mediocre amount instead of next to not at all, it could have bought the flyers 10-20 more points last year.

 

5 minutes ago, vis said:

For the record, I disagree with your statement that, over his career, Filppula is a terrible PP player.  True, he didn't play much in TB last year and he did not put up points with the Flyers.  But he did put up very respectable numbers in 14/15 (17 points), led TB in PP points in 13/14 (20 PTS).  Meanwhile, Couturier has never put up more than 7PTS on the PP and is coming off a year in which he had 2A as the center on the second unit.  I'd say Filppula is a candidate to play the PP.

 

Sorry, I'll amend that statement to "for much of his career, Filppula has been a uninspiring PP producer on a team with Stamkos, Johnson, Hedman, Drouin and oh yeah tied for the league lead in PP Goals: Kucherov--except for two decent seasons 5 years ago and he hasn't played the PK much there lately anyway."  

 

 

 

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, vis said:

That is one soft group of forwards.  

 

Let's hope they don't have to go back in time and play in the early 2000's.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I'm think it could be more like this (with some adjustments to some of the forwards moving around)more towards the end of next year...like come march...Sanheim more than likely starts in the AHL.

 

Depends on how crazy Hextall feels.   He won't want to start the season with three rookies, but he really needs Morin and Hagg.  

 

Morin  Provo

Gudas  Ghost

Hagg Sanheim  

 

That's likely too risky for him... but judging by last year... is it any riskier than keeping MacDonald on the ice?  

 

[vis]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Because Raffl was already getting top line minutes

I get that position with Giroux.  But, not with Raffl.  He averaged two full EV minutes per game than Giroux and does not play the PP.  He averages less even strength and overall ice time than Couturier and Simmonds.  

 

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Really... let's not come into this thread and just pretend that every Flyers fan in the world hasn't been scratching his/her head on the over use of PEB and VDV for the past two years, shall we?  

Don't think I am.  Outside of Giroux, the coach does not seem reluctant to use players on the PK who have more ice time than Raffl (Couturier and Simmonds) on the PK.  If Raffl is a significantly better player than VDV and PMB, I strongly suspect the coach would have used him in that role.  He hasn't used him for two years.

 

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Also, who is the free agent PK specialist you'd sign?  Is there one out there?

Dan Winnik.

 

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Sorry, I'll amend that statement to "for much of his career, Filppula has been a uninspiring PP producer on a team with Stamkos, Johnson, Hedman, Drouin and oh yeah tied for the league lead in PP Goals: Kucherov--except for two decent seasons 5 years ago and he hasn't played the PK much there lately anyway."  

lol...

[vis]

16 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Let's hope they don't have to go back in time and play in the early 2000's.

Not going to bother getting into this discussion, other than to say that "soft" does not mean "lack of fighters."

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, vis said:

I get that position with Giroux.  But, not with Raffl.  He averaged two full EV minutes per game than Giroux and does not play the PP.  He averages less even strength and overall ice time than Couturier and Simmonds.  

 

Simmonds and Couturier are better than Raffl. 

 

6 minutes ago, vis said:

 If Raffl is a significantly better player than VDV and PMB, I strongly suspect the coach would have used him in that role.  He hasn't used him for two years.

 

 

Well this is a good point.  Is Raffl just bad at the PK?  I have no reason to suggest he's bad at it.  Only his play at even strength to suggest he's good at it.

 

6 minutes ago, vis said:

 

Dan Winnik.

 

 

Dude... if Hextall can unload Raffl, Weise, Lehtera and Read, then you can have Winnik and I can have Jagr and we'll high give with one hand and a beer in the other.

 

Ultimately I don't disagree with you.  They need players that show different looks than those four who are so similar and whether on the PK or the PP offer either little help or unproven help towards what ailed the Flyers last year.  We're really in agreement in essence.  I'm not wanting Jagr so much as those four on the same team are doing nothing and there's a Jagr (or a Winnik) out there who can help where they can't.  

 

 

 

[King Knut]

12 minutes ago, vis said:

Not going to bother getting into this discussion, other than to say that "soft" does not mean "lack of fighters."

 

No no, don't get me wrong.   I know what you mean and it's not that I think you're wrong.  I'm just wondering how much it matters anymore.  

 

Simmonds is the team's best scorer, the "toughest" player (physically on the puck and with the fists) but he had twice as many PIM as the next forward.  Which, as one of our best penalty killers last year... was a problem.  

 

It's a debatable topic... you're right. 

[OccamsRazor]

45 minutes ago, King Knut said:

He won't want to start the season with three rookies

 

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I'm just spitballing what Hex and Hak will want.  I say start the season with all of them.  It's not like anyone's likely to claim MacDonald off waivers if you have to bring him back up... and if they do? Hey... free cap space.

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I say start the season with all of them.

 

Camp and preseason will tell a lot. Sanheim as i said somewhere around here could start in the AHL and finish in the NHL.

 

The other thing that must be considered (and no Hexy will never come out and admit this...no GM would) is he is also thinking beyond this year at the big picture....so he will want to slowly implement the Dmen so when it come time to resign this guys to their next contract after the entry level deal is up they can afford them all.

 

Morin Leier and Hagg are up for new contracts sometime during the upcoming year.

 

Next year (their last on current deals) Ivan, Sanheim, Laughton, Weal Vecchione and Konecny will be eligible to sign new deals.

 

See where i'm going here now none mentioned as of now will get a huge deal except maybe Ivan who will resign for top dollar.

 

However it is taking effect in Hexy's mind so he wants to spread it out as much as he can while also being competitive at the same time.

 

 

[vis]

 

40 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Well this is a good point.  Is Raffl just bad at the PK?  I have no reason to suggest he's bad at it.  Only his play at even strength to suggest he's good at it.

Not really sure either.  We can only go by his ice time and, just looking at the numbers, it seems the coach thought others were better than him at it.

 

40 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Dude... if Hextall can unload Raffl, Weise, Lehtera and Read, then you can have Winnik and I can have Jagr and we'll high give with one hand and a beer in the other.

That's a deal.

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, vis said:

Yes, he's playing the first PK unit with Laughton.

 

 

Saaa weet!!!

 

 

 

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

then you can have Winnik and I can have Jagr and we'll high give with one hand and a beer in the other.

 

 

There better be a AARP clause in that contract...

[King Knut]

22 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Camp and preseason will tell a lot. Sanheim as i said somewhere around here could start in the AHL and finish in the NHL.

 

The other thing that must be considered (and no Hexy will never come out and admit this...no GM would) is he is also thinking beyond this year at the big picture....so he will want to slowly implement the Dmen so when it come time to resign this guys to their next contract after the entry level deal is up they can afford them all.

 

Morin Leier and Hagg are up for new contracts sometime during the upcoming year.

 

Next year (their last on current deals) Ivan, Sanheim, Laughton, Weal Vecchione and Konecny will be eligible to sign new deals.

 

See where i'm going here now none mentioned as of now will get a huge deal except maybe Ivan who will resign for top dollar.

 

However it is taking effect in Hexy's mind so he wants to spread it out as much as he can while also being competitive at the same time.

 

 

 

I see your point, but I don't worry about it too much.  There's a good chance there's another work stoppage in three years when the CBA is up.  Additionally, over the next two seasons, the Flyers are about to shed close to 20 million in salary (I believe if not departed before then, MacDonald will be bought out after next season at the latest).  

 

He could slow down Morin and Hagg this year (or at least one of them) to get a cheaper or longer bridge deal, but considering what he just signed Ghost for, and the fact that Morin and Hagg don't appear to be headed toward the upside of a Ghost, A lot of these prospects would have to pan out really well to cause major cap issues.  

 

The real question in that time frame that could cause a problem as far as I'm see is what to do with Simmonds.  You're either going to have to pay him a huge cap hit, or give him a huge amount of years when he's 31 years old... or trade him while he's hot and in doing so, kick the can further down the road.   Resigning him this time next year when he's still got a year left, could be cheaper...  but you kinda need to know by the end of this year if you're going to be competitive enough to commit to a 31 year old win now guy like Simmonds. 

 

I mean worst case scenario, they're all friggin' amazing and you have dole out 6 McDavid deals that you can't afford and you have to trade 3 UFA contracts for a bazillion first round picks?  Let that be our problem!

 

 

[King Knut]

On 7/26/2017 at 4:03 PM, murraycraven said:

 

 

There better be a AARP clause in that contract...

 

Not for nuthin, but I did see a report on NHL network trying to rationalize why no one's signed Jagr and they explicitly pointed out that over the past 4 years, Jagr has more points than Simmonds.  

 

If not a reason to sign Jagr now, it's at least something to keep in mind in two years when everyone's saying we're all going to die and the universe will collapse if we don't match whatever insane offers the rest of the league throw at Simmonds.  

[AJgoal]

On 7/26/2017 at 2:52 PM, King Knut said:

Well this is a good point.  Is Raffl just bad at the PK?  I have no reason to suggest he's bad at it.  Only his play at even strength to suggest he's good at it.

 

 

No. When he played significant PK minutes under Berube, he was actually quite effective at it.

[ruxpin]

6 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

Not for nuthin, but I did see a report on NHL network trying to rationalize why no one's signed Jagr and they explicitly pointed out that over the past 4 years, Jagr has more points than Simmonds.  

 

If not a reason to sign Jagr now, it's at least something to keep in mind in two years when everyone's saying we're all going to die and the universe will collapse if we don't match whatever insane offers the rest of the league throw at Simmonds.  

 

If you don't already, you really should write for The Onion.   

Jagr has 2 more points than Simmonds over the last 4 years.   And?

Simmonds has 36 more goals over the same period.   And?

 

Over the last 2 years, Simmonds has 2 more points that Jagr.   And?

Simmonds also has 20 more goals over the last 2 years.  And?

 

Simmonds numbers were better over the last two years than his numbers were over the two years prior.  Albeit slightly  (114 pts. to 110 pts.)

 

Jagrs numbers were not as good over the last two years as his number were over the two years prior.  Again, slightly  (112 pts. to 114 pts).

 

Jagr 2 more points over the last (randomly chosen) 4 years

Jagr 36 less goals over the last (same random) 4 years

Jagr 17 1/2 more years.

 

Jagr has 1516 more points than Simmonds over the course of their careers...if that's somehow relevant to who to sign or not sign in 2017 or 2019.

 

Not sure why any of that is relevant to anything.

 

I really don't even understand the conclusion being drawn about two years from now with Simmonds based on any of this.  In two years, he'll be 30 years old when he goes UFA (31 before that season starts).  Jagr will be getting discounts at Perkins.   Jagr will be signed for this season, but it will be in late September (bookmark one of the many times I've said this so you can throw it at me when I'm wrong).    It will be Florida and it will be a one year deal.

 

I'm really tired of arguments to sign people based on what they have done rather than paying on prospective.  It's really a great way to end up in cap hell.

 

Because of that, when Simmonds comes to his 30 year old deal, he has the chance of testing the market and probably being offered $6-$7M/yr.  for 7 or 8 years.    It would suck for the Flyers in the near term, but I let him go on that.

 

 

[murraycraven]

12 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Jagr will be getting discounts at Perkins.

 

Congrats... you have won the interwebs best post award today... LOL!!!   This cracks me up...

 

 

[King Knut]

12 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Not sure why any of that is relevant to anything.

 

I just found it interesting.  This seemed like the most relevant thread in which to post it.  Just above Jagr on the list was Marchand.  

 

12 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I really don't even understand the conclusion being drawn about two years from now with Simmonds based on any of this.  In two years, he'll be 30 years old when he goes UFA (31 before that season starts).  Jagr will be getting discounts at Perkins.   Jagr will be signed for this season, but it will be in late September (bookmark one of the many times I've said this so you can throw it at me when I'm wrong).    It will be Florida and it will be a one year deal.

 

 

I'm not drawing any conclusions.  It's just something to think about.  

 

12 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I'm really tired of arguments to sign people based on what they have done rather than paying on prospective.  It's really a great way to end up in cap hell.

 

 

I really agree with this, which makes me curious about why you think it needed to be said and what I said that made it relevant?  Unfortunately, it's the way the league (and many others) seem to work.  Because of the RFA rules, you get a guy until he's like 25 (younger if they come into the league at 18 or 19 ) for probably less than market value for what he's going to give you.  When his RFA is coming up, you can ink him to a longer term deal to stick around for a while, usually still at less than market value, though not always.  

 

When he's in his prime and hits the market, he cashes in.  This is where it all balances out.  How many 32 year old pitchers have signed massive deals only to run them out off and on the DL with shoulder surgeries before they retire?

 

Yet teams in all sports keep going for it.  I have no idea why.   But I'm not talking about that.  I'm talking about 2 things...

-3/4 jokingly I'm saying we should sign Jagr for a 2 year deal at like 2 million per and trade at LEAST 2 of Lehtera, Weise, Raffl and Read.

    I'll admit this is more a rhetorical statment about the problems I see in the Flyers otherwise exciting lineup that could easily be corrected than anything else... but I don't think it's as absurd as some of the reactions have been suggesting.  He fills holes the other 4 just can't and if he likes it here, he can stay on as a coach... when Knoblauch takes over next year

 

-I'm saying that as much as we love SImmer and as much as he does everything well, and as much as he'll probably deserve the huge pay raise he's going to get in two seasons, unless the Flyers have been to the conference finals between then and now or unless they can trade Jake or Giroux, I'm pretty sure Hextall shouldn't give him that raise and they should allow another team to do it for Wayne.  

 

12 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Because of that, when Simmonds comes to his 30 year old deal, he has the chance of testing the market and probably being offered $6-$7M/yr.  for 7 or 8 years.    It would suck for the Flyers in the near term, but I let him go on that.

 

See, we agree.

I don't think he'll get that much mind you.  The Oshie deal was for an absurd duration for a guy that age but it was for less than 6 and frankly, Oshie had a better year than Simmer and I think the rest of the league accepts that his deal was outrageous.  But maybe I'm just being ironic and witty again.