not sure how to cope with Manning, Lehtera and Weise anymore

[vis]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Since this is a Lehtera thread i posted this already but it needs to be here too:

 

 

 

So yeah can a kid/prospect like Goulbourne really do worse??

 

 

 

 

I often criticize this guy and the status he holds with some, but the second tweet is spot on.  Honestly, someone should lose their jobs over that.  

 

I am just incredulous at the first tweet.

[vis]

25 minutes ago, brelic said:

So, if that's the case, that the plan is to "really go next year," why are they not playing more rookies then? I was thinking that they were actually trying for the playoffs.

Hextall has also always said that rookies will play if they are better than the alternatives.  Maybe they don't feel, for whatever reason, Sanheim, Vecchionne, Lindblom, Martel, Morin etc. make them better.  Or maybe they think developing them in the AHL (at least regarding Vecchione, Lindblom, Martel and Morin) is better for their development.  Who knows?  I don't think playing rookies because you don't think this is your year is always the right answer (as much as I would prefer to see more rookies).

[brelic]

7 minutes ago, vis said:

Yes, I agree with that.  As I said in my response, in this case no alternative is so much better than the other alternatives so it probably makes little difference if there is a rotation for the purpose of keeping players "ready to go."  Though, as stated, I prefer Leier's speed in the lineup over Lehtera's "safety."  What happened to Leier by the way?  That line was a lot of fun in the beginning of the season.   

 

Yes, agreed. I prefer Leier's speed too. I'm not sure what happened to him to have Hak scratch him over Lehtera. That line has been less effective since Raffl has moved up the lineup, and let's face it - Laughton drives the 4th line, not Leier. But, it's not like Leier was a liability. His CF% is better, he takes more shots, and blocks more shots. On the other hand, Lehtera hits a lot more, and takes faceoffs (56%).

 

Strange.

 

Quote

Absolutely and that's the rub with rebuilding while not rebuilding.  If the primary concern is winning games and making the POs, then Patrick deserves a healthy scratch or two (or three, or four...).  But if the primary concern is developing the player, then scratching him may not be such a great idea.

 

And right now, it's hard to tell which way Hextall is leaning. I've mentioned it before - it often feels like Hakstol and Hextall have different purposes.

 

Quote

Here's a question: why do they seem comfortable scratching Sanheim, also a rookie, but not Patrick?  Just seems inconsistent to me, though I guess Sanheim has at least one year of professional experience.  Is Brandon Manning that much of an upgrade, if at all, over Sanheim?

 

All that said, there comes a point where you kind of have to say, "Y'know...take a night off, nolan."

 

 

Good question!

 

My first guess is that there's no one to really replace Patrick (Weise or Lehtera, anyone?), so a callup is the only option. So far, it seems Hextall isn't willing to do that.

 

But, yeah, I agree - it wouldn't hurt to scratch him a few games. 

 

 

Quote

For sure, n the grand scheme of things, they have bigger issues, e.g., the lack of secondary scoring.  But I still hate seeing Lehtera on the ice.

 

So do I!!  

 

 

[vis]

16 minutes ago, brelic said:

On the other hand, Lehtera hits a lot more, and takes faceoffs (56%).

Didn't realize Lehtera actually hits.  Surprising.

 

16 minutes ago, brelic said:

My first guess is that there's no one to really replace Patrick (Weise or Lehtera, anyone?), so a callup is the only option. So far, it seems Hextall isn't willing to do that.

Is Vecchione is waiver exempt?  Maybe that's a problem?

 

Also, Phantoms are doing pretty well.  Maybe he's reluctant to change things down there for the sake of giving Patrick time in the PB.

 

Assuming no call up, how would you feel about this lineup:

 

Giroux/Couturier/Konecny

Raffl/Filppula/Voracek

Weal/Laughton/Simmonds

[Leier | Goulbourne] /Lehtera/Weise

[elmatus]

3 hours ago, vis said:

Here's a question: why do they seem comfortable scratching Sanheim, also a rookie, but not Patrick?

 

I think Sanheim screwing up is generally a worse scenario than Patrick screwing up. When Sanheim messes up -- which he has done a lot -- it often ends with a goal against. If Patrick messes up, it doesn't necessarily mean the team goes one down.

 

Also, I really don't find Patrick messes up that much. He just seems slow and uninspired in an odd way. He's usually at the right place and plays a reasonably safe game by most standards. He's just not lighting it up the way we all wish he would. I'm not saying he shouldn't sit mind you. Maybe he should. I'm not sure anyone would be a better 3C right now though. It's pretty much all a wash.

 

As far as bringing up more rookies goes, I just can't see it at this point. I think the Double H have dug their heels into this current roster for better or worse. Barring some sort of injury, I expect the current line up is what we'll have for the rest of the season.

 

And you know, I can live with the ups and downs of rookies learning the NHL game. I expected the team to be a bubble PO team at best, which is exactly what they are. All of that makes sense to me.

 

I have a much bigger problem with coaches who really do not seem to know what they're doing, and I especially have a problem with said coaches when we have one of if not the best pipeline of talent gearing up for the show. I would hate to see all that skill and potential waste away due to poor coaching.

[brelic]

2 hours ago, vis said:

Didn't realize Lehtera actually hits.  Surprising.

 

Is Vecchione is waiver exempt?  Maybe that's a problem?

 

Also, Phantoms are doing pretty well.  Maybe he's reluctant to change things down there for the sake of giving Patrick time in the PB.

 

Assuming no call up, how would you feel about this lineup:

 

Giroux/Couturier/Konecny

Raffl/Filppula/Voracek

Weal/Laughton/Simmonds

[Leier | Goulbourne] /Lehtera/Weise

 

Let’s not get too excited - Lehtera hit a lot compared to Leier lol. But he’s middle of the pack on the team.

 

Meh. I think that lineup is ok if you want to sit Patrick for a game or two so he can watch from above... but no longer than that. The 4th line does not inspire confidence. But I like that idea for a 3rd line.

 

Maybe just switch Patrick and Laughton for a few games. 

[OccamsRazor]

On 1/16/2018 at 11:45 PM, King Knut said:

They are so bad they make my stomach  turn every time they take a shift.  They’re just plain awful.  

 

Yet I feel like they take more shifts than Simmonds or Voracek at this point. 

 

There isn’t any way to fully express how terrible they are.  I can’t take it anymore hey in God’s name are they friggin’ playing?

 

i just can’t stomach it. 

 

 

 

A look into the mind of Hextall...

 

What Flyers see in Jori Lehtera, the exception to NHL’s prototype

 

http://www.courierpostonline.com/story/sports/nhl/flyers/2018/01/18/what-flyers-see-jori-lehtera-exception-nhls-prototype/1046202001/

 

“He’s a really reliable player that thinks the game well,” coach Dave Hakstol said. “He’s reliable and real heavy on pucks. That goes unnoticed. He creates turnovers defensively with his intelligence and his stick. Offensively, he creates possession with very good little plays. Heavy plays on the forecheck. All kinds of small area plays.”

 

Translation they got rid of my guy Vandevelde so i'm making him my new guy...

 

[RJ8812]

lol...****.

[King Knut]

12 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

A look into the mind of Hextall...

 

What Flyers see in Jori Lehtera, the exception to NHL’s prototype

 

http://www.courierpostonline.com/story/sports/nhl/flyers/2018/01/18/what-flyers-see-jori-lehtera-exception-nhls-prototype/1046202001/

 

“He’s a really reliable player that thinks the game well,” coach Dave Hakstol said. “He’s reliable and real heavy on pucks. That goes unnoticed. He creates turnovers defensively with his intelligence and his stick. Offensively, he creates possession with very good little plays. Heavy plays on the forecheck. All kinds of small area plays.”

 

Translation they got rid of my guy Vandevelde so i'm making him my new guy...

 

 

 

Thats all just smoke blowing. 

I think I understand their actual thinking but I just disagree with the idea of choosing to cost yourself games now for the sake of players you may not have room for next year or the year after. 

 

The added advantage of bringing up a Varone, Martel or Vecchione in particular (as opposed to a Lindblom) is that the Flyers are far more likely to eventually trade or not resign one of those guys.  

 

Giving them minutes now  makes their trade value much higher.  Especially for the older ones like Vecchione.  

 

There is NO reason to be playing Lehtera.  

 

And Lehtera isn’t heavy on anything but my damn nerves.  

[King Knut]

17 hours ago, brelic said:

 

Let’s not get too excited - Lehtera hit a lot compared to Leier lol. But he’s middle of the pack on the team.

 

Meh. I think that lineup is ok if you want to sit Patrick for a game or two so he can watch from above... but no longer than that. The 4th line does not inspire confidence. But I like that idea for a 3rd line.

 

Maybe just switch Patrick and Laughton for a few games. 

 

Nolan must have heard you.  He seemed to be channeling his inner Couturier  on that goal last night.  Previews of coming attractions!!

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Varone

 

 

Varone ain't coming up he is an AHLer is all.

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Varone ain't coming up he is an AHLer is all.

 

So’s Lehtera.  What’s your point?

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

So’s Lehtera.  What’s your point?

 

 

My point is they already have enough scratch material........no need for more.

 

If someone is coming up it would be Vecchione or Lindblom....which i guess won't happen till maybe next year barring a injury.

[King Knut]

10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

My point is they already have enough scratch material........no need for more.

 

If someone is coming up it would be Vecchione or Lindblom....which i guess won't happen till maybe next year barring a injury.

 

Martel has already been up for a stretch.  

Vecchione makes the most sense, but they’re clearly trying to groom him to be a 3c or 4c which is I think a little short sighted considering how well Frost is playing which would suggest that therw’s Little room for extra centers on this team. 

 

He’s also already older than Laughton (I think) so they’re literally just wasting his time.  

 

Mad far as scratch material, just show me you know he’s the weak link and I’ll be happy.  I’ll gladly take mor Goulbourne or a crappy Varone if it at least suggests they’re TRYING to fix the obvious problem. 

 

I watch a lot of the games with the volume low and I can’t tell you how many times I watch a dumb ass play that screws things up and I look up and there’s Lehtera or Weise or often Manning our of position, lost, making a stupid blind pass or just not able to keep up. 

 

I’d sooner see a younger guy trying and screwing up and potentially learning from that mistake than these guys who just aren’t up to the level of trying at this level.  

 

To be fair, Manning can still try.  It just often costs us a goal against or a good opportunity when he does.  

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Martel has already been up for a stretch.

 

 

Yeah and is out a while with a broken jaw.

 

I don't think we'll see anyone else unless someone goes down.

 

I don't agree with that is would love to get a look at some of these kids in a bottom six role....but the brain trust don't see it that way.

 

Sadly.

 

[brelic]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Thats all just smoke blowing. 

I think I understand their actual thinking but I just disagree with the idea of choosing to cost yourself games now for the sake of players you may not have room for next year or the year after. 

 

The added advantage of bringing up a Varone, Martel or Vecchione in particular (as opposed to a Lindblom) is that the Flyers are far more likely to eventually trade or not resign one of those guys.  

 

Giving them minutes now  makes their trade value much higher.  Especially for the older ones like Vecchione.  

 

There is NO reason to be playing Lehtera.  

 

And Lehtera isn’t heavy on anything but my damn nerves.  

 

There's probably more than a healthy dose of spin in that article, but at the end of the day, Lehtera is not 'costing' us games. 

 

I really don't understand their full plan - I think we're all a bit confused.

 

But Lehtera is not blocking anyone. He usually replaces Leier, Goubourne, or Weise.

 

If you want to know who's blocking Vecchione, it's Laughton and Patrick. Certainly not Filppula because Vecchione would not play that high in the lineup. Patrick isn't ready for that role yet either. 

 

There's no rush - Filppula's contract expires at the end of the season, and who knows, if Patrick keeps trending upwards, they may trade Val at the deadline for a 3rd rounder, move Laughton up to 3C and bring in Vecchione.

 

Any way you slice it, though, Hextall will have a lot of tough decisions to make at center - Patrick, Laughton, Vecchione, Frost, Rubtsov, Vorobyev, Marody, Laczynski, Bunnaman. How many of those guys can be converted to wingers? And that opens up another issue of available spots when you consider some of the wingers we have in the system - Allison, A-K, Lindblom, Martel, Laberge, Ratcliffe, Sushko, Cates.

 

Out of the 9 center prospects we have, hitting on 3 would be better than average. So which 3? Do we want to trade away the next Filip Forsberg for Erat? (Man that was a horrible trade) What about wingers?

 

I know Hexy wouldn't make that kind of move - but the point is there are a LOT of players in the pipeline, and only about 25% of them will be impact NHLers. It takes time to figure out who that will be, and part of that is giving these guys full seasons/extended time in the AHL.

 

 

[King Knut]

25 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

There's probably more than a healthy dose of spin in that article, but at the end of the day, Lehtera is not 'costing' us games. 

 

I really don't understand their full plan - I think we're all a bit confused.

 

But Lehtera is not blocking anyone. He usually replaces Leier, Goubourne, or Weise.

 

If you want to know who's blocking Vecchione, it's Laughton and Patrick. Certainly not Filppula because Vecchione would not play that high in the lineup. Patrick isn't ready for that role yet either. 

 

There's no rush - Filppula's contract expires at the end of the season, and who knows, if Patrick keeps trending upwards, they may trade Val at the deadline for a 3rd rounder, move Laughton up to 3C and bring in Vecchione.

 

Any way you slice it, though, Hextall will have a lot of tough decisions to make at center - Patrick, Laughton, Vecchione, Frost, Rubtsov, Vorobyev, Marody, Laczynski, Bunnaman. How many of those guys can be converted to wingers? And that opens up another issue of available spots when you consider some of the wingers we have in the system - Allison, A-K, Lindblom, Martel, Laberge, Ratcliffe, Sushko, Cates.

 

Out of the 9 center prospects we have, hitting on 3 would be better than average. So which 3? Do we want to trade away the next Filip Forsberg for Erat? (Man that was a horrible trade) What about wingers?

 

I know Hexy wouldn't make that kind of move - but the point is there are a LOT of players in the pipeline, and only about 25% of them will be impact NHLers. It takes time to figure out who that will be, and part of that is giving these guys full seasons/extended time in the AHL.

 

 

 

Yeah, I've been trying to address all that all along.  I understand all of that and I understand their reasoning.  I just think they're not erring on the side of a winning atmosphere.  

 

I understand that Lehtera isn't terrible when it comes to overall Corsi and Fenwich (not that he's good) but he's -5 in 27 games playing a mere 10 minutes a night.  

 

How about they just throw me a bone and put Konecny on the 2nd PP unit instead of Lehtera... He's not big in front, but he can actually shoot and move the puck and skate.  

[brelic]

2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Yeah, I've been trying to address all that all along.  I understand all of that and I understand their reasoning.  I just think they're not erring on the side of a winning atmosphere.  

 

I understand that Lehtera isn't terrible when it comes to overall Corsi and Fenwich (not that he's good) but he's -5 in 27 games playing a mere 10 minutes a night.  

 

How about they just throw me a bone and put Konecny on the 2nd PP unit instead of Lehtera... He's not big in front, but he can actually shoot and move the puck and skate.  

 

What do you mean by winning atmosphere? They're 13-5-1 in their last 19 games. As a team, they successfully came through that 0-5-5 stretch and seem stronger for it. Yesterday was a character win where they had to dig deep, and it was our secondary scoring that came through to tie it up and set up Coots for the game winner.

 

Totally agree about not having Lehtera on the 2nd PP. That makes no sense to me. Or Manning. 

 

I'd like to see Patrick, Weal, Konecny, Provorov, and Sanheim. But in Sanheim's absence, I guess Manning makes sense. If you were to put out a 4th forward out there, who would it be? Raffl? 

 

[King Knut]

4 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

What do you mean by winning atmosphere? They're 13-5-1 in their last 19 games.

 

 

Sorry.. yes I totally agree with you about the last 20 games or whatever it's been.  I've been cheerleading that for a while.  Not saying they're 100% okay, just saying they're actually playing very very well with a very high winning % and beating some good teams.

 

What I meant by winning atmosphere is the way they've been sorta cool with missing the playoffs or getting beat in the first round for 5 years now.  

 

I remember in 1988 when they lost in the first round, they were FURIOUS.  They lost in the first round like 5 times between '98 and '06 and each one was a stain.  IT was like hell had broken loose and heads had to roll almost every time.  Laviolette essentially got fired for not qualifying. 

 

That's a bit absurd and too far in the wrong direction (especially given the circumstances at the time).

 

But during the "competitive rebuild" the team's general demeanor related to the playoffs has been, "Hey we're trying, but we don't expect anything really."  That rubs off and I think it's been a major problem for the likes of Simmonds, Jake and Giroux (who looked to be the playoff savior after "the shift" and that Penguins series.

 

I know they haven't been good enough lately, and it's not the losing that bothers me so much, it's the sort of casual "well what did you expect?" attitude about it.

 

I don't want complacency becoming a thing for Patrick, Konecny, Provorov, Hagg, and the rest as they come up.  I want them to have to same attitude as McDavid and Matthews have now or that prick Crosby had a decade ago, that they are just going to win damn it.  And I want Giroux, Simmonds and Jake to have that extra gear that Briere, Primeau and Gagne all had where you just turn it up an extra couple of notches because hell... it's the playoffs!  

 

Couturier is the wild card.  Not sure where he is.  Had a monster playoffs as a rookie, wasn't healthy for the Rangers 4 years ago... had a bad playoffs against the Caps 2 years ago...  Would love to see how he, G, Jake and Simmer show up if they can get in this year... and I want them to lay it all on the ice and show these kids what it looks like to give everything they've got for a win.

 

4 minutes ago, brelic said:

I'd like to see Patrick, Weal, Konecny, Provorov, and Sanheim. But in Sanheim's absence, I guess Manning makes sense. If you were to put out a 4th forward out there, who would it be? Raffl? 

 

I'd put Sanheim out there.  I'd put Sanheim on the team over Manning if just for the PP minutes.  He's the PP2 QB of the future.  He's not going to get the hang of things in that role if he's sitting in the press box.

 

But it they were going to go with 4 forwards, I think you have to go with Raffl.  Filppula is a possibility, but I think Raffl's stronger on the puck and does more things better right now.  

 

But in my world, Lindblom or Vecchione is on the Flyers instead of Lehtera right now, so I'd probably have one of them there if I had my drothers.  

 

 

 

[AJgoal]

25 minutes ago, brelic said:

I'd like to see Patrick, Weal, Konecny, Provorov, and Sanheim. But in Sanheim's absence, I guess Manning makes sense. If you were to put out a 4th forward out there, who would it be? Raffl? 

 

 

Raffl

Patrick - Weal

Konecny - Provorov

 

I'd consider sliding Laughton into Weal's spot, but it is nice to be able to send his line over the boards for the first shift after a power play.

[brelic]

12 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Raffl

Patrick - Weal

Konecny - Provorov

 

I'd consider sliding Laughton into Weal's spot, but it is nice to be able to send his line over the boards for the first shift after a power play.

 

I'm assuming here you mean TK on the point (or half wall like Voracek)? 

 

The only thing that worries me is that his passing is really hit and miss - he makes a lot of high risk passes and turns it over a lot. I think over time, he'll probably grow into a great passer. There's no doubt he has high hockey vision. But right now, eesh. 

 

Then again, Voracek is much of the same in terms of passing percentage and risky plays.

 

Either way, I like those 5 out for PP2.

[AJgoal]

6 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I'm assuming here you mean TK on the point (or half wall like Voracek)? 

 

The only thing that worries me is that his passing is really hit and miss - he makes a lot of high risk passes and turns it over a lot. I think over time, he'll probably grow into a great passer. There's no doubt he has high hockey vision. But right now, eesh. 

 

Then again, Voracek is much of the same in terms of passing percentage and risky plays.

 

Either way, I like those 5 out for PP2.

 

Honestly, I envision PP2 as involving a bit more skating than PP1. While PP1 does use skating with the puck to open some things up, they're not very dynamic in doing so. They rely more on passing and funneling the puck to the net through a screen. I think a powerplay with the guys I slotted up would actually work better in a hybrid umbrella, using puck possession and skating with the puck to open up opportunities for shots.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

I'd put Sanheim out there.  I'd put Sanheim on the team over Manning if just for the PP minutes.  He's the PP2 QB of the future.  He's not going to get the hang of things in that role if he's sitting in the press box.

 

[OccamsRazor]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:21 AM, King Knut said:

 

So’s Lehtera.  What’s your point?

 

Speaking of......

 

 

 

#winning

[AJgoal]

Well, about halfway through the game, they replaced Manning with Konecny on PP2. That's progress.