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Hockey-78

What should be done with Nino?

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@EmptyShelf I think You're over thinking this part.

5 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

 

When the Wild originally got Nino, Wasn't the knock on him exactly how he was playing this season?

Yet Nino proved everybody 'wrong' once with a new team and a fresh start..

It's history repeating itself.

 

 It doesn't really matter what team he was on, What line, Age, etc. The point was...At that time he was described that way. When he got HERE and His fresh start he proved otherwise, For a good while. That's it. 

"History repeating itself" is Nino showing his talent for another new team. 

How long that lasts, Who knows.

I never mentioned Rask in this as his fresh start either. You can use the comparison all you want but that's not what I was saying.

 

I just believe Fenton was sending a message to the team. A wake up call. He made a minor league move with a player in Iowa that some say wasn't looking like he'd make the bigs. Sends a message there.

Fenton doesn't have much to work with at all. Trading a Nate Prosser wasn't going to have any impact.

Nino was given over 1/2 the season to show something. BB constantly moved him around trying to get him going. (along with others sadly) Even Coyle found a bit of his game. Nino made it an easy choice. 

Only Nino knows what was wrong with him this year. How long do you hold on to this "rare asset" while the tarnish eats away?

Btw, I love consistency. I would've been very disappointed if that term wasn't used in your reply. ;) 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, EmptyShelf said:

I don't get 'hard feelings' from a message board....GMs often take a lazy route and contact just a few trade partners - ones that they know well, ones that are responsive, or ones that may not have a salty reputation for tough dealing.  I am not saying the Canes were the ONLY call made by Fenton.  I am, however, saying that many 'make a move to make a move,' and they often tap a familiar (or easier) partner to do so.  I have become acquainted with a few former GMs in my business career (one NHL and one NFL), and you would be quite surprised at the information they provide about the running of sports franchises - there isn't a great deal of 'cross league' discussions or trading.  Ever noticed how many deals are done between the same partners?  Familiarity breeds comfort.  You can believe it, or choose not to do so.......Fenton whiffed, and it will become more obvious over time 

Okie dokie!  🙂

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1. If Fenton put the word out he was willing to trade Nino this past summer he was coming off a 63 game, 18 goal, 14 assist, +14 season averaging 15:00 minutes a game.

 

2. If no other team wanted his $5.25 million contract why would there be interest in him (adding to that) this years performance of 50 games, 9 goals, 14 assists, a -12 season averaging 14:48 minutes a game, with his contract still being worth $5.25 million?

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22 minutes ago, ClusterChuck said:

@EmptyShelf I think You're over thinking this part.

 It doesn't really matter what team he was on, What line, Age, etc. The point was...At that time he was described that way. When he got HERE and His fresh start he proved otherwise, For a good while. That's it. 

"History repeating itself" is Nino showing his talent for another new team. 

How long that lasts, Who knows.

I never mentioned Rask in this as his fresh start either. You can use the comparison all you want but that's not what I was saying.

 

I just believe Fenton was sending a message to the team. A wake up call. He made a minor league move with a player in Iowa that some say wasn't looking like he'd make the bigs. Sends a message there.

Fenton doesn't have much to work with at all. Trading a Nate Prosser wasn't going to have any impact.

Nino was given over 1/2 the season to show something. BB constantly moved him around trying to get him going. (along with others sadly) Even Coyle found a bit of his game. Nino made it an easy choice. 

Only Nino knows what was wrong with him this year. How long do you hold on to this "rare asset" while the tarnish eats away?

Btw, I love consistency. I would've been very disappointed if that term wasn't used in your reply. ;) 

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion.  I would never just dump a decent asset when Fenton 'doesn't have much to work with' to send a message.  It sounds like others on this board don't think this is prudent either, while there are certainly a few that are aligned with the thought process that this trade/return wasn't really a big deal (and the asset exchange was reasonable).  I guess time will tell.  However, streaky or not, NN has 6 goals in the last 10-12 days (both teams).  Timing was terrible, as we have zero goals from Rask during that time period (or even recently acquired Aberg, whom seems to be filling some of NN's time).  Goals win games, and Rask does not play well on defense either (if that is your counter-argument)...

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7 minutes ago, rottenrefs said:

1. If Fenton put the word out he was willing to trade Nino this past summer he was coming off a 63 game, 18 goal, 14 assist, +14 season averaging 15:00 minutes a game.

 

2. If no other team wanted his $5.25 million contract why would there be interest in him (adding to that) this years performance of 50 games, 9 goals, 14 assists, a -12 season averaging 14:48 minutes a game, with his contract still being worth $5.25 million?

One word:  INJURY.  

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All I know is when Fenton made his first 'trade' for the Wild I had premonitions that the second he hung up the phone after making the deal he probably called his mommy and said, "Look what I can do!"

 

 

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:02 PM, EmptyShelf said:

I don't disagree with these points.  You are correct, and this why I said 'easy goals for ZP.'  Gotta feed the Country Club members to their liking.  Scoring can be suicide if 9, 11, and 20 feel pressured to step up.  Granlund has conquered the Club due to deft passing skills.  Zucker still finds himself on the wrong side of the Club, as does Coyle.  As far as young players - it defies logic that we are the ONLY team whom likes to penalize goal production in young players.  Its as if goals don't determine wins.  Face-offs, 2 way defense (even if you cannot score) rule playing time.  The whole model is built with Koivu as the 'perfect player' by no one's standards but CL.  We need a new owner (or his wife to intervene).  The guy falls in love with inept over-the-hill players and tries to force success through them....Recipe for Round 1 elimination

C'mon guys, you cannot honestly believe that the head coaches of the Wild have been holding back the newer/younger players from scoring goals?! I'll believe the "country club" thing to a point, that these few may sometimes get preferential treatment, but IMO what you are saying is ridiculous. Why would they let that happen? To undermine the success of the team and put their own jobs in jeopardy? Makes zero sense.

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The Wild are 3-1 since the Niederreitter trade and have moved into third place in the division...I think the message was sent...

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@EmptyShelf 

I really have no opinion on Rask or the other 2 until I see them more. But I'm also not going to compare any of them to who they were traded for. I still believe the moves were for sending a 'message' and getting something to at least fill some gaps due to injuries etc.

I never expected to get much in return for if/when a Coyle or Nino were traded.

 

Do I like the Nino trade? No. I figured the plan was to have Nino, Coyle, Granny and Zucker as the mid young core while bringing up the Kunin's, Greenway's etc. All the while weeding out the old crustys. (Same idea for the D) 

Obviously Fenton has a different plan in mind and I think and hope he's not done. If he is, Then these deals don't say much.

 

It may not sound like it, But I do see your point on the valued asset. The Wild of course are in such a strangled position that normalcy gets thrown out the window.

I really dislike this time period between prepping for the Vegas draft and now Seattle. It only adds to the difficulty in teams trying to rebuild. I don't think Seattle is going to benefit from such a strong group to choose from like Vegas did. Maybe the GM's have learned something from that.

 

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32 minutes ago, ClusterChuck said:

@EmptyShelf 

I really have no opinion on Rask or the other 2 until I see them more. But I'm also not going to compare any of them to who they were traded for. I still believe the moves were for sending a 'message' and getting something to at least fill some gaps due to injuries etc.

I never expected to get much in return for if/when a Coyle or Nino were traded.

 

Do I like the Nino trade? No. I figured the plan was to have Nino, Coyle, Granny and Zucker as the mid young core while bringing up the Kunin's, Greenway's etc. All the while weeding out the old crustys. (Same idea for the D) 

Obviously Fenton has a different plan in mind and I think and hope he's not done. If he is, Then these deals don't say much.

 

It may not sound like it, But I do see your point on the valued asset. The Wild of course are in such a strangled position that normalcy gets thrown out the window.

I really dislike this time period between prepping for the Vegas draft and now Seattle. It only adds to the difficulty in teams trying to rebuild. I don't think Seattle is going to benefit from such a strong group to choose from like Vegas did. Maybe the GM's have learned something from that.

 

I think the decision to bring in Seattle a few years after Vegas, is really going to challenge some GMs.  They will need to be very adept at managing their present assets, as well as forthcoming assets.  It may also compel them to be a he77 of a lot smarter about the NMC/NTC usage.  Unfortunately, these are now contractual 'norms' for some of the larger contracts, which does handcuff GMs when the Seattle 'draft' occurs.  Fenton better be smart and prepared in advance, as will other GMs in terms of having to think with a long-term view.  This will shift the 'balance of power' that some organizations enjoy when their success is more based upon depth than a finite core...

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I wonder what the NHL would do if every GM gave every player on the roster a NMC...🤔

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3 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

I wonder what the NHL would do if every GM gave every player on the roster a NMC...🤔

 

That's kinda like wondering what would happen at any given job if everyone just decided to quit all at once, no?  :bigteeth:

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5 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

I wonder what the NHL would do if every GM gave every player on the roster a NMC...🤔

Wait a minute here!    You some kind of  NHL anarchist or somethin'?????😁

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9 hours ago, sweetshot said:

C'mon guys, you cannot honestly believe that the head coaches of the Wild have been holding back the newer/younger players from scoring goals?! I'll believe the "country club" thing to a point, that these few may sometimes get preferential treatment, but IMO what you are saying is ridiculous. Why would they let that happen? To undermine the success of the team and put their own jobs in jeopardy? Makes zero sense.

I totally understand your point in practice.  However, it is really hard to see how the Mgmt is operating differently.  When a young player succeeds with goal scoring (in particular), they ride the success a bit, but then move them around on lines (which SEEMS to be at the direction of players like Koivu).  However, if you are a playmaker like Granlund and Staal, whom make those around them better (including the Country Club), exceptions are made.  I think Zucker and NN felt this more than other players in the past.  It remains to be seen whether they will continue this stupid practice with Greenway, Kunin, and others - but I feel this is NOT the coach or new GM - it is CL, due to his too-close relationship with the Country Club.  We already know that they whine about lines (line-mates on, then off their lines), power-play (if the coach isn't working out for you, hire your own), and are too close to CL (private meetings, continuous consultation, and contracts that make no sense to anyone outside the organization).  Thus, if this the direction you provided from the owner/Top (when you are hired), you incorporate accordingly.  I think this is what has happened....

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10 hours ago, sweetshot said:

C'mon guys, you cannot honestly believe that the head coaches of the Wild have been holding back the newer/younger players from scoring goals?! I'll believe the "country club" thing to a point, that these few may sometimes get preferential treatment, but IMO what you are saying is ridiculous. Why would they let that happen? To undermine the success of the team and put their own jobs in jeopardy? Makes zero sense.

Since the Yeo days certain 'core leaders' or players have expressed their preferences of who they want to play alongside. That is a fact.

 

Yeo got fired and Torchetti took over. He had free reign on who to play where, so it seemed. Right out of the block different lines were formed that many of us thought made sense (for the first time.) They excelled. The whole team was performing at a level we had really never seen before. This was during his 'evaluating process.' Once he 'evaluated' those players crap went right back to where it was before and it was noted without mentioning any names, certain players began to fade (the veterans) and that's when they went back to the same old crap.

 

Russo hinted to it as much and at that point began noting his 'without mentioning any names' mantra, that during Yeo's slide there were some difficulties among players. This was what a lot of us had already assumed months earlier. Particularly the divide between younger and older players and the situation was brought back up again just as Torchetti's 'evaluation period' embarked on transitioning right back to the same old bullschwa.

 

Then they hired Boudreau. initially the team came out of Spring training with some optimistic promise, but things were a bit awry during Spring training and into the first week or so of the season. Then things came together and in the first two months of the season the Wild were the best team in the league. Lines started going 'back to normal' all over again and they went on a skid and it's been the same old roller coaster ride ever since. And, occasionally we hear BB elude to things like, 'Suter says he feels more comfortable with Spurgeon than Dumba.' But alongside Dumba there didn't seem to be anything amiss. Except Dumba was quicker and more prone to strike in on offense more than Suter.

 

Much of these interactions are facts. We see players alongside Mikko making his line do well, and likewise if some other line (Staal's line) strikes up scoring streaks (more than Mikko's) we see players from Staal's line yanked and put back on Mikko's line, to where they begin to start little scoring streaks.

 

So here we are again some 8 years after Yeo was initially hired to venture out into a more offensive, more entertaining game... Still seeing complete line changes (scrambled eggs) of players and still no definitive or effective scoring line or distinct definition between lines 1, 2 or 3. The whole team is still a conglomeration of a handful of players. Whereas other teams have clear definitions between each of their lines and about the only times any of their lines get shuffled is when someone goes down with an injury.

 

Which, case in point, is why most other teams and expert analysts treat the Wild as some sort of a joke and never take them seriously.

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On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 5:39 PM, rottenrefs said:

1. If Fenton put the word out he was willing to trade Nino this past summer he was coming off a 63 game, 18 goal, 14 assist, +14 season averaging 15:00 minutes a game.

 

2. If no other team wanted his $5.25 million contract why would there be interest in him (adding to that) this years performance of 50 games, 9 goals, 14 assists, a -12 season averaging 14:48 minutes a game, with his contract still being worth $5.25 million?

I would be very interested to find out if Fenton every put any type of word on Nino. My guess, with after what CL said, that zero was said. With that said, this trade felt like what you said a little below, just a trade so Fenton could said he can trade players. It feels like Fenton traded for absolutely zero reasons.

 

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 1:51 AM, sweetshot said:

C'mon guys, you cannot honestly believe that the head coaches of the Wild have been holding back the newer/younger players from scoring goals?! I'll believe the "country club" thing to a point, that these few may sometimes get preferential treatment, but IMO what you are saying is ridiculous. Why would they let that happen? To undermine the success of the team and put their own jobs in jeopardy? Makes zero sense.

I honestly think the coaches don't have a ton of say. I think it all comes down to what CL wants. CL isn't like the other owners. CL keeps showing he wants to be involved with everything and getting attached to people and players in the franchise instead of being the guy who writes the checks and only steps in when things get way out of control.

I don't it's the coaches as much as the core guys. My biggest eye opener was when Parise and Suter went off to Oates for PP help. They went behind their coaches backs. Only those two went when there is 3 other guys out there on the ice with them. They ignored their teammates. They brought Oates to a practice. Then the biggest kick, they didn't get in trouble at all. They flexed their attitude and the ability to not be touched in front of the coaches. Even Koivu, who I am not a fan of, never did this. But in key times, even when other players are showing to be way more effective, it's the core guys out there. And if players have a few good games watch the line they are doing good on get broken up and the player(s) doing good get put with one of the core guys who isn't and then that player disappears. So I think it's not so much the coaches wanting to do this as CL wanting his "All-Star players" doing great and shining at the expense of everything else. Besides you never seen BB doing this much line changing of who is going to be on what line until he came to Minnesota. I do think at first he was geared up about winning but now has accepted the fact this is what he is going to get and just cash the pay checks. I think Bruce will walk away after this season.

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