hobie

Hutch has been a reasonable NHL goalie and he still might be.

Keefe was in a presser and he indicated that TO was seriously looking for a goalie, some of the media hacks figured he was asking/insisting on one from his statement.

 https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/leafs-head-coach-keefe-demands-for-upgrade-in-between-the-pipes

Andersen had 4 breakaways last night against Van., he stopped them all, that's the difference between a good/great goaltender and Hutch. 

I think it's premature to give up on Hutch.

The changes have occurred via Keefe.

Something I never understood with Babs is he decided that Matthews and Hyman would be linemates even before they'd played an NHL game. That duo was only broken up because Matthews didn't like it, I think Keefe will be more flexible in the lineup configuration, he'll look for ways to improve things probably even when things are going well. 

I equate Spezza with Leivo, Spezza wasn't appreciated by Dallas so he needed a change, Leivo wasn't appreciated by Babs so he needed a change.

Holl looking alright now that Babs is gone.

2 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

So you're in favour of the Leafs doing a "mini rebuild" type of thing?   

 

 

What do we get back? Draft picks or active players?

 

 

I think the forwards are the best part about this team. No doubt about it. We have some explosive scorers. The trouble is, how do you build around that in a salary cap league?  Even if we had the #1, #2, and #3 best forwards in the NHL, and all paid accordingly, is that a winning team?    

I don't think trading players on expiring contracts is a mini rebuild, I think TO simply needs to acknowledge that the support players aren't good enough if the playoffs aren't makeable at a minimum.

Draft picks are an option only if TO can't find the type of players that are needed. Probably any draft pick would be 4 years from the NHL and TO needs to think about winning now. Use the draft pick(s) to acquire players in the summer.

We saw Pitts. win a Cup with Hainsey on the top d pairing so there isn't a winning formula to win the Cup. If you look at the Islanders the last 2 years you probably notice they have a bunch of no name d-men or over the hill d-men but they've become one of the better d corps in the NHL, 2 years running, after being the absolute worst prior to Trotz. Coaching and systems makes a lot of difference, maybe Keefe will be TO's Trotz. I think we're already seeing an unparalleled level of forwards being defensively responsible since Babs' 2nd year. 

On 11/20/2019 at 8:48 PM, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I'd be happy to see Dubas get fired next. I think he's in way over his head. He needs to go back to school, learn what makes a good hockey team, put some glass in the frames he's wearing, and come back to the NHL at a later date. Every trade Dubas has made thus far is questionable. He strikes me as one of those guys who is only looking at "advanced" stats and isn't looking at any of hockey's most obvious and prized traditional stats when evaluating players. 

 

Take Tyson Barrie for instance. I would have never acquired a guy like him when my team already has Morgan Rielly and needs to have a DEFENSIVE defenceman. He went out and traded for something he already has in abundance. Makes no sense.

 

Also, Cody Ceci was plucked from the last place Ottawa Senators and was ~ -24 last season. Why would we be picking defencemen off the 31st best team defensively? Doesn't make any sense. That's dumpster diving. We'll see how that one pans out but neither of these guys are what Toronto needs on their blue line. 

 

The rumor is that Dubie wanted to turf Babs in the summer but the powers that be vetoed him. Babs is a fine coach which he proved to me in his first year as coach of TO from then on many of his decisions have caused me to doubt his suitability to coach this team.

I'm gonna be happy when Dubas proves many/most wrong and I think it's far more likely to happen with Keefe as the coach. I can rember many years ago when Montreal was great, they sprinkled so muscle in their lineup but truly won because of talent and speed. Now few teams have muscle, teams are relying on their players, no matter their level of talent, to have the character to overcome meathead intimidation.

I think the Ceci acquisition was more about the Cap going forward than about improving TO's d.   

I watched the Leafs/St.L. game last night and then I thought about the coaches having their pasts dug up.

A St.L. player slashed a Leaf, the Leaf then waved his stick at the St.L.'s stick on the ice, the St.L. player then attempted to cross check the Leaf in the face, the Leaf player managed to avoid this and seeing that the St.L. player wanted to accelerate the foray he grabbed on to the St.L. player for dear life, the St.L. player then started to punch the Leaf player even tho the Leaf player had no interest in fighting.

The result of this, both players received a fighting major, I find this troubling. For one thing the St.L. player expended a great deal of energy attempting to hurt the Leaf, I'm certain he was encouraged to do so as the entire St.L. clapped their sticks in appreciation. It seems strange to me that players expect to be treated with dignity but on the other hand have zero respect for their opponents, fellow players. Also that incident screams loud and clear that the officials refereeing games have little respect for players and even encourage them to disrespect their opponents.

I watched two other games involving the Leafs this past week against the Avs and Philly, both games were great games where all teams played hockey. Hockey games broke out in both games, all teams expended a great deal of energy and skill entertaining us, it was great.

That was TO's first fighting major of the year?

I'm looking at Ceci's record to date, 1g, 4a in 31 games so he isn't an offensive d-man yet with those poor offensive stats TO has somehow scored 4 more goals that the opposition when he's on the ice.

I think Rielly and Ceci together have had around a 52 CF rating which is pretty good for a top pairing d on a team that has been outscored. But Ceci when separated from Rielly has had a 60+ CF, Rielly's CF without Ceci is between 33 to 42, the higher the number the better by the way.

Rielly has had only 1 season where his +/- was positive and that was last year. The year TO had the most points ever, Rielly was -4 and in the year we were first introduced to the big 4 when TO made the playoffs he was -20. 

Rielly had an anomaly year last year, his points are again decent but again he's -4.

It looks to me like Keefe is reading the tea leaves or fancy stats if you like and now he's pairing Rielly with Barrie and giving them sheltered minutes 5v5, probably a good reaction to what's happening. We're already seeing better d.

Mostly I've enjoyed Spezza this year, his energy and productivity is what I've hoped for from him.

He's 4g, 8a in 20 games off of 11:11 TOI and only -4 with a fairly steady diet of Gauthier.

I think he's the perfect 4th line center for TO and I don't think he'd look outta place higher in the lineup. 

I don't know if anyone thought that Barrie is better than Gardiner but he is cheaper and that's the key, I think.

Barrie is a classic example of the grass always being greener.

I'd simply keep trying different combos of lines or d pairings to see if something works then if by the TDL TO is out of the playoffs I'd trade expiring contract players.

I hope TO can move Muzzin, Barrie and Ceci for a serious return, not because they're that bad but because TO can't afford them, the Cap is tight this year and it should be even worse next year.

Our core may not be perfect but it is core worthy.

I'm not surprised the year has gone as it has, Babs needed to go and hopefully Keefe can breath new life into the team.

2 years in a row TO lost in the first round to Boston but both years TO was a stiff test for them, it's valuable experience that the Leafs need.

8 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Uh........but it IS a lack of playoff experience.  Y'know how many times Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Johnsson, Kapanen, Rielly, Hyman, Brown, Dermott, Gauthier, Moore, Zaitsev have each made it the post-season in their careers?   

 

Two for some, and three times for some.  Even Tavares and Kadri have only done it four times each.

 

That's 12-14 guys with hardly any playoff experience, on this team.  Thankfully, they all now have at least these past three seasons under their belts.

 

Relax, and show some patience. 

 

Jesus.

Experience, I believe pretty well every player on the Leafs has playoff experience up the ying yang. NHL experience maybe not but playoff experience nonetheless. Moore has been returned to the A to play in the playoffs and I assume it's so he can gain even more playoff experience.

When Chicago won their first Cup of the 3 recent Cups they had lots of players without a boat load of experience, experience is a cop out. Babs made a lot of unexplainable coaching decisions and it seemed that he was the person most in need of playoff experience.

Babs played Hy on the top line with Mitch and JT, Hy had been injured in the 4th game so he was essentially playing on one leg for the last 3 games. Babs said he'd ask Hy how he felt and Hy would always say better, Babs couldn't tell that a player he coached for 3 years wasn't that player?

Gardiner played at about 70% due to his back, Babs wouldn't play Marin, Holl or Rosen who we need to assume were at 100%.

Babs wouldn't shorten the bench in the 7th game even tho TO was down 2 goals?

I think the phrase "full of himself" might have been coined for people like Babs, he believes in himself so totally that mundane matters like playing injured players or the score doesn't sway his game plan.

Ya, I think TO needs to upgrade the d to TB standards? Or Philly?

TO's major talents are in the 24 to 21 years of age area, a lot of teams wouldn't or shouldn't win cups with such a young core. 

Upgrading anything on TO will be impossible without seriously weakening current strengths because of the Cap.

It all comes down to the right mix of players and the right coach and there's no easy to follow guide to build a cup winner or TB would be winning it all, now. 

Quote

 It wasn’t his best performance, but Garret Sparks won his 29th game, which ties Drew MacIntyre for most wins single season by a Toronto Marlies goaltender. Sparks is now 29-9-2 on the year with a 1.81 GAA and .936% save percentage.

 

https://www.mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/04/01/toronto-marlies-set-ahl-record-with-road-win-over-manitoba/

And this guy wasn't even included in TO's top 10 nor was Borgman who was demoted to make room for Dermott or Rosen who was retained by TO to play at the beginning of the year.

Even when TO was bad and had a poor prospect pool TO had lots of prospects and they were prospects because why else would TO have drafted or signed them.

I have actually looked up THN's prospect ratings from 2016, TO was rated #6 with both Marner and Nylander in the list.

Matthews was never considered a prospect as he went from the draft to the NHL.

Last year TO was ranked #3 with Kappy being TO's top prospect, Dermott was ranked as TO's 8th best and Johnsson wasn't even rated.

Philly was ranked #9 in '16 and #6 in '17.

Even the management of the teams have difficulty getting an accurate read of their own prospect's potential.

Flyercanuck,  I've been a THN reader for a long time and generally the top 10 listing of team's prospects produces 2 actual NHL players. The longer a player remains on the list the less likely that player is to become an NHLer.

The best graduation I've seen from a top 10 list is 5 I believe and that was from TB with Kucherov, Palat, etc. Kucherov was actually rated number 7 in the lone time he was acknowledged in the THN's prospect edition.

When TO drafted Biggs, a good skater for a big man, tough, sound positionally and with offensive upside so he was the next coming of Lucic, where's he now. TO even traded to move up in that draft to nab him and the scouting dept that had endorsed him had picked 6 players from 1 draft, out of 7, that would have NHL careers. He was 6'3". TO drafted another big man who was decent in junior fast for his size, a defensive savant and he was chosen because he was a safe pick, a guaranteed future NHLer, I doubt the Goat will ever make the NHL and if he does 4th line center at best. He was 6'5" when drafted.

I don't like it when TO drafts tall players because even tho you hear they're fast for their size they're still not fast. How many quality NHLers do you know of that are 6'4" or taller and fast, I prefer a fast team, not a big tough one.

Quality NHLers don't percolate in the A for years for the sake of development or remain in junior and then play in the A, fringe ones do.

2 hours ago, hf101 said:

 

 

The word "list" is highlighted and is a direct link to the article.  Maybe my choice of color of dk red on the site for all links and hyperliinks isn't that obvious.  They are created in this editor box by highlighting the text you wish to hyperlink and then click on the "link" icon - 2nd row, 2nd icon.  "Click Here" for the flyers prospect blog, it's a decent read.

 

https://dobberprospects.com/ also does a decent job on all NHL prospects and also has Ratcliffe at #10 for the Flyers.

 

 

OK but the question still remains, what qualifies these people to make the lists?

9 hours ago, hf101 said:

In reference to this list of the Flyers top 15 prospects written in Jan 2018, it looks to have a few major differences than the list by THN.  

Graduated to the NHL are Nolan Patrick, Robert Hagg, and Travis Sanheim.

 

1. Carter Hart

2. Morgan Frost

3. Philippe Meyers

4. Oskar Lindblom

5. Wade Allison

6. German Rubtsov

7. Mikhail Vorobyev

8. Sam Morin

9. Felix Sandstrom

10. Isaac Ratcliffe

11. Kirill Ustimenko

12. Tanner Laczynski

13. Maxim Sushko

14. Matthew Strome

15. Cooper Marody

 

Marody isn't a Flyers prospect anymore but I do agree on this list that Lindblom is at least worthy of a #4 rank over the #7 on the THN list.   The THN list s also missing Vorobyev and Ratcliffe.

 

My understanding of THN's research is the prospect rating is derived from the team's themselves. Now all kinds of things might be going on that we aren't privy to like using this published list as a motivational tool for say Ratcliffe because Philly might think he's not being all he can be, who knows. This getting the list from the horse's mouth has been THN's MO for years so HF, where did you dig up this list and how was it derived?

9 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

Sure they did...but for decades Toronto didn't really have many prospects that were intriguing. There was the odd one every few years, but I don't think it takes a genius to realize this is the best management the Leafs have had since the first lunar landing. The same goes for the cover...best young players Torontos had...ever! But they aren't prospects...and the magazine is. 

 

 

 

 So they draw the "prospect" line at 44 NHL games THIS year?   

 

 

 I'm fine with Philly being #2. I'd be fine with Toronto being #1....I just don't see it when comparing "prospects". When they had Marner/Nylander etc...I agreed.

 

 

 They're both good prospects. They were drafted the same year. They've played close to the same NHL games. They have similar points.

 

 One plays a far tougher position.  

 

 NONE of us gets the McDud love. 

TO considered the NHL it's farm team so cultivating players wasn't their thing but unfortunately the owners didn't have bottomless pockets like the current owners. TO has had management groups with one directive, win, but at the same time the different ownerships weren't prepared to put their money were their mouth was. TO could've traded for Gretzky, I believe a deal was in place but ownership didn't want to pay Gretzky.

Ballard alienated Boschman, McDonald, Sittler and probably more and Ballard wasn't someone even Lou could muzzle.

To assume that TO's management was the problem is really showing a lack of understanding of TO's dynamics for about 50 years. JFJ approached ownership asking them to allow him to rebuild, ownership said no, do everything in your power to make the playoffs. That decision cost TO Rask.

The NHL cuts off rookie eligibility at 25 games I believe and maybe THN does the same for prospect status so unless you think THN put the publication together days before it was released it very possible that they considered Sanheim a bonafide NHLer due to his 10 more games than Kappy played in the NHL.

I'm as underwhelmed by Philly's prospects as you are with TO's and there you go.

I believe that TO's prospects rating by THN when TO had Marner and Nylander was in the top 10 and only moved to #1 after TO drafted Matthews.

I don't think either TO or Philly should be in the top 2 at this time, Arizona(Strome, Merkely, Crouse, MacInnis), Buffalo(Mittlestadt, Nylander) are more worthy but I think Van. has the best total pool of prospects with Pettersson, Joelevi and Demko being the headliners.  What about LV's prospects Glass, Brannstrom, Suzuki and Hague, I think both TO and Philly would gladly give up their top 10s for these 4.

Maybe they are trying to sell their mags, it would make sense. 

When TO was down THN had TO rated 27th to 29th year after year, pretty much for a decade so they probably didn't need to boost circulation then?

Don't know why Kappy is considered a prospect and Sanheim not. I'm certain you can think of reasons why, Sanheim who only played 18 A games this year and 45 NHL games while Kappy played 28 A games and 35 NHL games, like when the research was done. Right now it doesn't look like either is a prospect but maybe a month to a month and a half ago things looked different.

Nobody is ever happy with these rankings but really the publication is about circulation, being read, as are Web sites that make their prospect ratings.

Who is better of these 2, time will tell far more accurately than who does the rating but for the sake of argument I see that Sanheim is playing 4.5 less minutes per night than MacDonald. 

In The Hockey News's last edition called Future Watch prospects are evaluated and rated as are prospect pools of the various teams.

TO is ranked #1 as far as team pools are rated.

  TO's prospects are rated in order of possible success in the future

 1)Kapanen(26)

 2)Liljegren(33)

  3)Dermott(54)

  4)Grundstrom(99)

  5)Woll

  6)Johnsson

  7)Bracco

  8)Rasanen

  9)Timashov

  10)Nielsen

The bracketed numbers denotes the standing of those rated in the top 100 of all prospects from all 31 NHL teams.

I thought the Philly fans might be interested, their prospect pool was rated #2.

1) Hart(35)

2) Myers(40)

3) Frost(44)

4) Rubstov(45)

5) Morin

6) Sandstrom

7) Lindblom

8) Allison

9) Marody

10) Laczynski

How are the standings of prospects determined against prospects of all teams, opinion of THN's editors I guess.

The TO's pool of prospects ranked against each other is derived from the Leaf organization itself so people like Hunter provide that info.

I've noticed in the past that these lists provide the names of about 2 players of the 10 listed that actually go on and play in the NHL for 50 or more games.

Quote

The sensible course for each NHL team is to build through the draft and have sound player development in the American Hockey League.

The top-two Canadian-based clubs this season, the Winnipeg Jets and Toronto Maple Leafs, are proof of this philosophy.

Not only are the Jets and Maple Leafs considered legitimate Stanley Cup challengers, their respective AHL affiliates also are Calder Cup contenders.

The Leafs' farm team, the Toronto Marlies, have the best record in the AHL at 40-16-2, and the Jets' AHL affiliate, the Manitoba Moose, sit third overall at 35-16-7.

But the longtime debate when it comes to NHL teams and its minor-league clubs is; Is it better to have a winner? Or, a team only concerned with development?

Well, why can't you have both?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/toronto-marlies-tim-wharnsby-1.4563827

Bracco has played 35 games this year, missed 23, Liljegren has played 30 missed 28, some of these missed games might be due to injuries but some/most are also because they were benched. I see that Smith 58 games and Clune 34 games have played more than Bracco, while Marincin 38 games and LoVerde 47 games have played more than Liljegren.

The best way to win in the A is to play the NHL-AHL tweeners lots and spot the youth, benching the youth is as good for them as how Leivo is being played is good for him. Now that TO is paring the masses Bracco and Liljegren are being used more.

On the Marlies winning has been the priority over the years even at the detriment of development. However are players to be given a spot on the roster if they're not the best option? For me the A should be about grooming the promising youth, prioritizing their development even while risking team success. Keefe has a vested interest in his future and while his future might be somewhat tied to player development, how well the Marlies do will be how he's judged.

Dallas Eakins was considered to be the best coach outside of the NHL when he was coaching the Marlies,, his tenure wasn't resulting in graduated NHL players, it was all about the Marlies winning. He was eventually signed to coach the Oilers because of the Marlie success. If Keefe can nurture future Leafs I'm sure he'll be pleased but he's well aware what's necessary for his own future success and how he handling Bracco's and Liljegin's 1st year shows that his own success is job 1.  

Liljegren was asked why he chose to play for the Marlies instead of returning to Sweden

Quote

“The risk of a year slipping away in Rögle with little playing time plus the chances of development that were in Marlies made the decision quite easy in the end.”

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/wjc/2017/12/19/16794934/timothy-liljegren-found-the-decision-to-move-to-toronto-easy

This was an interesting thought process for me because I have always assumed that the AHL is a superior league to anything in Sweden.

Then I think that since the A is essentially about development and developing players is their intent the A is a better place for him. Rogle is like the Leafs, all about winning now.