mojo1917

25 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

I will explain my analogy, since you maybe didn't get it.

You said:

 

 

Of course there are no guarantees.  My point was, doing a full rebuild, like wearing a seatbelt, maximizes your chances.  Why not do that?

You might say, "well I don't want to watch a rebuilding team" and that is understandable because watching a rebuilding team is not fun, at least early on.  But I can't say I have had much fun watching this team in a very, very long time.
 

That's fair.

I understood.

I don't like the logic.   

Maximizing chances.

If the stars align and the generational player comes out of the right ****** 17 years prior to when the pick is available still seems dubious to me at best. 

This subject is hard for me to find my wise mind because, as has been discussed, other sports fan experiences. 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You're singing my song...

 

Where'd they get him? Picking 15th in the draft?

Fine whatever,  they were a ****** disgrace to get Lemieux . 

They were gifted Crosby after the lockout. 

**** if I'm pinning my hopes on the commish cutting  the Flyers a break at all. 

@flyercanuck

Let me bold a part for you.

46 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Lucky? sure both good and bad

That team was good, good enough to be in the conversation for best teams in the East. 

For half a decade.

Did they lose to Generational talent Sidney Crosby? Well, that wasn't hard to do lots of teams lost vs that guy.

If they got just pedestrian goaltending, they win that 2010 series. 

Chicago got our ping pong ball, they get Kane we get JvR.

Lucky, both ways.

@pilldoc

@flyercanuck

the Flyers have been mostly bad since the trade deadline.

They had that Dead cat bounce vs the top teams in the East and then nothing in the tank after that.

After watching this season, who should stick around, who can be built around?

I think there are some questions answered especially about the younger vets.

I'm not in on Farabee, or Frost, Tippett? that contract is tradeable. I'd consider keeping him, maybe, I don't keep him and TK though.

I know I've been running my yap about hating losing, but if trading TK is the best way to get a top centerman into the system? then okay. 

I'll hate it but I get it.

Icing a team with all young guys and watching them get their asses kicked every night isn't of interest to me.

It teaches nothing but how to take an ass kicking.

To do that hoping a ping pong ball bounces the right way ?

No thanks.

People may be out on how things have been done recently. Fletcher was no daisy, no argument from me there. Folks think the tear down hasn't happened in a manner that is acceptable @SCFlyguy

There's an off season where trades and signings can happen.

The team has 9 picks in the first 2 rounds of the next two drafts, Briere has managed to make some good things happen. Getting a first for Walker was more than I expected, Taking on Johansen's contract for a year, so what? Turning Gauthier into something was also better than having him walk after his junior year.  It was conceivable that Flyers got zilch from their top 5 pick. I think that was some good work. 

Things could be a lot worse.

A. Lot. Worse.

38 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

Wearing a seatbelt while driving doesn’t guarantee I don’t die in a car crash, so why bother?

because billions of dollars aren't at stake on your daily commute?

For a professional sports team to lose on purpose is ****** dumb. 

Kinda like comparing tanking to wearing a seatbelt?

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

(minus one totally fluke run to the finals where every top team fell in front of us and we got matched with exactly who we'd want)

I don't agree with this take either.

Those Richards teams were good.

2 ECFs  1 SCF, playoffs 5 straight years. They were a healthy goaltender away from winning a 'chip. And had they not been blown-up could have been in the mix for 3 or 4 more years.

That team lost to the champion Pens in round one 2009, had they played anyone else, that team was going to play for another month at least. 

Lucky? sure both good and bad.

@GratefulFlyers

At some point some luck is involved.

Whether it's a favorable draw in the playoffs, or a guy taken in a later round exceeds their ceiling. Or a ping pong ball lands the right way.

There is no one right way to build a championship team.

If tanking guaranteed winning, why then are there zero championship banners hanging in the Mullet arena in Phoenix?

For the last 10 years the Flyers have had terrible luck, that run can't last forever. 

Having many good young players and having multiple swings trying to find those good young players is one way to build a team. It's not the only way. Finding and (this is where the Flyers have really been bad) developing those young players is vitally important no question. Becoming a place where players want to come to play helps too.

Being young and dumb and playing in an empty arena isn't what anyone wants. 

@GratefulFlyers

that's fine. I wouldn't expect anyone to really read about all that futility. 

But it is why I hate tanking.

The O's did the tank and  they were unlucky on a couple of drafts, then they were terrible, then they couldn't get people to come out to that beautiful ballpark because the home team was ****. It didn't take long for one of the best environments in the league to turn into a mausoleum. 

Next thing you know it's 25 years later, and your daughter says, I never knew you liked the Orioles?!?! yes teen-girl mojo you didn't know that. it's because they were so ****** terrible I would never subject you to that level of incompetence.

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

I've never liked Tortorella and his drama queen act. I do think a team like the Maple Leafs for example could use him for a season or two to see if he could help them over that hump. That is NOT what a team that's supposed to be rebuilding needs. This season is a prime example....he squeezes everything out of the team until the playoffs are in sight, then everyones so exhausted from playing "playoff hockey" for 70 games, they're done. But the team is now too high up in the standings to get that star player that would actually help in the rebuild.. 

 

I just find it frustrating to watch this same episode go over and over and over....I don't know how some of you long time fans don't. I used to love watching playoffs that mattered. Now we're either not in them, barely, or we play one series and we're done. Maybe two once every 7 or 8 years. Pretty exciting times. We've played 18 rounds of playoffs in 20 years. That's certainly not stellar. It's not pathetic. It's mediocre.

this is not wrong.

14 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Trading Konecny is really starting over. It's a drastic step but maybe it's their best bet. Last night broke my fan spirit. Starting over can't look worse than this. 

No It can 

Collapse and redemption (1984–1991)[edit]

After winning the World Series in 1983, the Orioles organization began to decline. In 1986, a rash of injuries resulted in the team suffering its first losing season since 1967. The 1988 season started unceremoniously when the Orioles lost their first 21 contests, finally winning in the team's next-to-last game of April. Manager Cal Ripken, Sr. was fired six games into the season, replaced by former Oriole great Frank Robinson. However, this was not enough to stop the bleeding, and the Orioles ended the year at 54–107, the worst record for the franchise since 1939.

The next year, the Orioles sported a new look, replacing the cartoonish bird with a more realistic one. The 1989 squad, led by surprise ace Jeff Ballard, rebounded to finish in second place behind the Toronto Blue Jays with an 87–75 record, staying in contention until the last week of the season and earning the nickname of the "Why Not?" Orioles. Frank Robinson earned the 1989 American League Manager of the Year Award for his efforts in leading the team out of the abyss. Two years later, Cal Ripken Jr. won the American League Most Valuable Player award in the team's final season at Memorial Stadium. He was also named Most Valuable Player of the 1991 All-Star Game, played in Toronto's SkyDome.

Oriole Park at Camden Yards and Ripken's record (1992–1995)[edit]

In 1992, with grand ceremony, the Orioles began their season in a brand new ballpark, Oriole Park at Camden Yards. However, the name of the new park was accompanied by controversy. Many felt that since the Orioles' new home was so close to Babe Ruth's birthplace that the new park should have been named after Ruth instead of being indirectly named after the Earl of Camden, Charles Pratt, a Britisher who never set foot on American soil. There was also the superficial connection to the fact that Ruth played for the Orioles early in his career, but the Orioles team that Ruth played for was not related to the Orioles team that moved to Baltimore from St. Louis.

In 1993, Peter Angelos bought the Baltimore Orioles, which returned the team to local ownership. However, Angelos' ownership resulted in a number of controversies. The Orioles also hosted the 1993 All-Star Game.

On September 6, 1995, in a game between the Orioles and the California Angels at Camden Yards, Cal Ripken Jr. broke Lou Gehrig's consecutive games streak of 2,130 games. This was later voted the all-time baseball moment of the 20th century by fans from around the country in 1999. Ripken's streak ended at 2,632 straight games, when he sat out the game on September 20, 1998.

Return to the playoffs (1996–97)[edit]

In 1996, team owner Peter Angelos hired Pat Gillick away from the Toronto Blue Jays to be the Orioles' general manager. Gillick brought in several players, including catcher B. J. Surhoff, relief pitcher Randy Myers, and second baseman Roberto Alomar. Under Gillick and manager Davey Johnson, the Orioles returned to postseason play by winning the American League's wild card spot in the 1996 season. The team set a major league record for home runs in a single season, with 257, and upset the Cleveland Indians in the Division Series before falling to the Yankees in a controversial American League Championship Series (a fan, Jeffrey Maier, interfered with a fly ball hit by Derek Jeter in Game 1; the play was ruled a home run and the Yankees eventually won the game). The Orioles followed up by winning the AL East Division title in 1997, going "wire-to-wire" (being in first place from the first day of the season to the last). After eliminating the Seattle Mariners in four games in the opening round, the team lost again in the 1997 American League Championship Series, this time to the underdog Indians, in which each Oriole loss was by one run. After the Orioles failed to advance to the World Series in either playoff, Johnson resigned as manager following a dispute with Angelos, with pitching coach Ray Miller taking his place.

Downturn (1998–2004)[edit]

With Miller at the helm, the Orioles found themselves not only out of the playoffs, but also with a losing season. When Gillick's contract expired in 1998, it was not renewed, and Angelos brought in Frank Wren to take over as general manager. The Orioles added volatile slugger Albert Belle, but the team's woes continued in the 1999 season, with stars like Rafael Palmeiro, Roberto Alomar (who joined his brother Sandy Jr. in Cleveland), and Eric Davis leaving via free agency. After a second straight losing season, Angelos fired both Miller and Wren. He named Syd Thrift as general manager and brought in former Cleveland manager Mike Hargrove to lead the team on the field. In 1998, the Orioles updated the bird in their logo, and then once again the next season in 1999.

The first decade of the 21st century saw the Orioles struggle due to the combination of lackluster play on the team's part, a string of ineffective management, and the ascent of the Yankees and Red Sox to the top of the game – each rival having a clear advantage in financial flexibility due to their larger media market sizes. Further complicating the situation for the Orioles was the relocation of the National League's Montreal Expos franchise to nearby Washington, D.C. in 2004. Orioles owner Peter Angelos demanded compensation from Major League Baseball, as the new Washington Nationals threatened to carve into the Orioles fan base and television dollars. However, there was some hope that having competition in the larger Baltimore-Washington metro market would spur the Orioles to field a better product to compete for fans with the Nationals.

Beginning with the 2003 season, big changes began to sweep through the organization to try to snap the losing ways. General manager Thrift was fired as general manager, and to replace him, the Orioles hired Jim Beattie as executive vice president and Mike Flanagan as vice president of baseball operations. After another losing season, manager Hargrove was not retained and Yankees coach Lee Mazzilli was brought in as the new field manager. The team signed powerful hitters in shortstop Miguel Tejada, catcher Javy López, and former Oriole first baseman Rafael Palmeiro. The following season, the Orioles traded for outfielder Sammy Sosa.

2005 season[edit]

The 2005 season was one of the more controversial in the Orioles' history. The Orioles began the season with a tremendous start, holding onto first place in the AL East division for 62 straight days. However, turmoil on and off the field began to take its toll as the team started struggling around the All-Star break, dropping them close to the surging Yankees and Red Sox. Injuries to Luis Matos, Javy López, Brian Roberts, Sammy Sosa, and Larry Bigbie came within weeks of each other. The team was increasingly dissatisfied with the front office's and manager Mazzilli's "band-aid" moves to help the team through this period of struggle. Various minor league players such as A League Frederick outfielder Jeff Fiorentino were brought up in place of more experienced players such as David Newhan, who had batted .311 the previous season.

On July 15, Rafael Palmeiro collected his 3,000th hit in Seattle; but 15 days later he was suspended for a violation of MLB's drug policy, after testing positive for the anabolic steroid stanozolol. The Orioles continued tumbling, falling out of first place and further down the AL East standings. This downfall cost Mazzilli his managerial job in early August, allowing bench coach and 2003 managerial candidate Sam Perlozzo to take over as interim manager and lead the team to a 23–32 finish. The Orioles called up Dave Cash from the Ottawa Lynx to serve as the team's first base coach.

Measured by winning percentage, the Orioles' 32–60 second half record is the worst in baseball history after playing .600 ball for the first 70 days ^{[citation needed]}. Sosa, who was the club's biggest offseason acquisition, posted his worst performance in a decade, with 14 home runs and a .221 batting average. The Orioles did not attempt to re-sign him, considering his exorbitant salary, his miserable performance, and his stormy relationship with batting coach Terry Crowley and teammates including Miguel Tejada. The Orioles also allowed Palmeiro to file for free agency and publicly stated they would not re-sign him. On August 25, pitcher Sidney Ponson was arrested for DUI and on September 1 the Orioles moved to void his contract (on a morals clause) and release him. The Major League Baseball Players Association filed a grievance on Ponson's behalf and the case was sent to arbitration. The case was finally resolved in late 2008 with Ponson winning at the arbitration hearings.

2005–06 offseason[edit]

Front office changes[edit]

Following the disappointing 2005 season, it was clear major changes needed to be made within the Orioles. In the front office, Executive VP Beattie was not re-signed, allowing Flanagan to become the sole general manager. Shortly after, Jim Duquette was hired as vice president of baseball operations, which was Flanagan's previous position. Duquette made it clear at his signing that he reported to Flanagan, so the "two-headed GM" will not exist anymore. ^{[citation needed]} The Orioles also fired assistant general manager Ed Kenney and asked for the resignation of Dave Ritterpusch, the director of baseball information systems.

Coaching staff changes[edit]

There were also drastic changes in the Orioles coaching staff. Perlozzo was named the new manager, and unlike Mazzilli, was given full freedom to name his coaching staff. Perlozzo led off strong by convincing Atlanta pitching coach Leo Mazzone, who had revolutionized the careers of many pitchers in Atlanta, to become the pitching coach for the Orioles. He retained Crowley as hitting coach and Cash as first base coach. Former base coach and 1983 World Series World Series MVP Award Rick Dempsey replaced the late Elrod Hendricks as the bullpen coach, with Tom Trebelhorn resuming third base coach. Perlozzo rounded out his staff with former Cubs and Phillies manager Lee Elia as the bench coach.

Roster changes[edit]

The roster changes of 2005 were prefaced with Peter Angelos' comments: "We are coming back strong next year. I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true."^{[citation needed]} The Orioles allowed Palmeiro, Sosa, and Surhoff to become free agents. They also set their wishlist: an everyday first baseman, an experienced starter, a closer, a defensive catcher, outfield help, more defense, and more speed. However, their off-season moves showed no differences from past years. The Orioles were not able to re-sign closer B. J. Ryan, who signed with the Toronto Blue Jays. They were also locked out in bids to sign first baseman Paul Konerko, outfielder Johnny Damon, and starter Paul Byrd. The Orioles were rumoured to have a deal with outfielder Jeromy Burnitz, but his agent balked, supposedly at language regarding the physical, which was deemed by legal experts to be rather standard, and Burnitz signed with the Pittsburgh Pirates. The Orioles chose not to enter the bidding for players like A. J. Burnett and Kevin Millwood, whose asking prices were far beyond what the Orioles were willing to pay. The only target the Orioles managed to sign was catcher Ramón Hernández.

Locked out of pursuits to sign top-tier players, the Orioles decided to make several moves to allow minor league prospects more time to develop. This led to bringing in players like Jeff Conine and Kevin Millar, both of whom were known for their positive presence in the clubhouse. The Orioles also made several trades to bring in needed players. They first traded disgruntled reliever Steve Kline for LaTroy Hawkins, then traded for outfielder Corey Patterson, who brought speed and defense to the outfield, and traded former closer Jorge Julio and John Maine for experienced starter Kris Benson. The Orioles also addressed future free agents by extending the contract of outfielder Jay Gibbons and third baseman Melvin Mora, and signed a contract extension with second baseman Brian Roberts. The team's opening day roster featured top prospect Nick Markakis, a potential A.L. "Rookie of the Year", the best young position player the Orioles' farm system has produced since Roberts. Markakis represented the revival of the Orioles' once proud farm system, which features four players listed in Baseball America's 2006 list of the top 100 prospects in minor league baseball.

Miguel Tejada[edit]

The Orioles' lack of movement over the course of the off-season frustrated many, including Miguel Tejada. This led to him stating, controversially, that he "wanted to play for a winner", and "perhaps a change of scenery is needed." The Oriole front office began to talk to many teams interested in Tejada as a trade. It was rumored that the Boston Red Sox offered All-Star outfielder Manny Ramírez for Tejada, though no Orioles officials confirmed this. There were also talks of Mark Prior being offered for Tejada. After several weeks, teammate Melvin Mora facilitated a conference call between the Orioles and Tejada where Tejada backed down and said his comments were intended to provoke the Orioles to make more moves in free agency.

The Orioles finished the up and down 2006 season with a record of 70–92, 27 games behind the Yankees, who won the AL East Division.

2007–2011: Rebuilding years and arrival of Buck Showalter[edit]

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A new President of Baseball of Operations named Andy MacPhail was brought in about halfway through the 2007 season. MacPhail had had success as general manager of the Minnesota Twins in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and had been the chief executive officer of the Chicago Cubs from 1994 to 2006. He spent the remainder of the 2007 season assessing the talent level of the Orioles, and determined that significant steps needed to be made if the Orioles were ever to be a contender again in the American League East. He completed two blockbuster trades during the next off-season, each sending a premium player away in return for five prospects or (or younger less expensive players). Tejada, who had hit .296 with 18 home runs and 81 runs batted in during 2007, went to the Houston Astros in exchange for outfielder Luke Scott, pitchers Matt Albers, Troy Patton, and Dennis Sarfate, and third baseman Mike Costanzo. The newly designated ace of the Orioles rotation, Érik Bédard, who went 13–5 with a 3.16 earned run average and 221 strikeouts in 2007, was sent to the Seattle Mariners in exchange for top outfield prospect Adam Jones, left-handed pitcher George Sherrill, and three minor league pitchers – Chris Tillman, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Butler. The Bedard trade in particular became one of the most lop-sided and successful trades in the history of the franchise.

While MacPhail found success in most of his trades made for the Orioles over the long-term, the veteran acquisitions that he made often did not pan out, and as a result, the team did not finish higher than 4th place in the AL East, or with more than 69 wins, while MacPhail was in charge. Some of his free agent signings had positive contributions (such as reliever Koji Uehara), most gave only mediocre returns. In particular, the Orioles never managed to cobble together a successful pitching staff during this time. Their most consistent starting pitcher from 2008 to 2011 was the late bloomer Jeremy Guthrie who was the Opening Day starter in 3 of the 4 seasons and had a cumulative 4.12 earned run average during this stretch.

Following Davey Johnson's dismissal after the 1997 playoff season, Orioles ownership struggled to find a manager that they liked, and this time period was no exception. Dave Trembley was brought on as an interim manager in June 2007, and had the interim tag removed later that year. Trembley was at the helm again in 2008 and 2009 but was not able to lead the team out of the cellar in the AL East. After starting the 2010 season a dismal 15–39, Trembley was fired and third base coach Juan Samuel was named the interim manager. The Orioles were seeking a more permanent solution at manager as the 2010 season continued to unfold, and two-time AL Manager of the Year Buck Showalter was eventually hired in July 2010. The Orioles went 34–23 after he took over, foreshadowing that a brighter future might be on the horizon, and giving Orioles fans renewed hope and optimism for the team's future.

The Orioles made some aggressive moves to improve the team in 2011 in the hopes of securing their first playoff berth since 1997. MacPhail completed trades to bring in established veterans like Mark Reynolds and J. J. Hardy from the Diamondbacks and Twins, respectively. Veteran free agents Derrek Lee and Vladimir Guerrero were also brought in to help improve the offense. At the 2011 trade deadline, fan favorite Koji Uehara was sent to the Texas Rangers in exchange for Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter, a move that did not pay immediate dividends, but was crucial to the team's later success. While these moves had varying impacts, the Orioles scored 95 more runs in 2011 than they had the previous year. The team still finished last in the AL East due to the utter failures of the team's pitching staff. Brian Matusz compiled one of the highest single-season earned run averages in major league history (10.69 over 12 starts) and every pitcher who started a game for the Orioles except for Jeremy Guthrie ended the season with an earned run average of 4.50 or higher. The Orioles finished last out of 30 major league teams that year with a 4.89 team earned run average. MacPhail's contract was not renewed in October 2011 and a search for a new general manager began. After a public interview process where several candidates declined to take the position, former general manager Dan Duquette was brought in to serve as the executive vice-president of baseball operations.

2012–2014 "Buckle Up, We won't stop."[edit]

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Duquette wasted no time in overhauling the Orioles roster, especially the pitching staff. He traded Guthrie to the Colorado Rockies in exchange for Jason Hammel. He brought in new free agent starting pitcher Wei-Yin Chen from the Nippon Professional Baseball league, and Miguel González was signed as a minor league free agent. Nate McLouth was signed to a minor league deal in June 2012 and made a significant impact down the stretch. 2012 year also marked the debut of the much hyped prospect Manny Machado.

The Orioles won 93 games in 2012 (after winning 69 in the previous year) thanks in large part to a 29–9 record in one-run games, and a 16–2 record in extra inning games. The difference between this Orioles bullpen and bullpens past was like night and day, led by Jim Johnson and his 51 saves. He finished with a 2.49 earned run average, with Darren O'Day, Luis Ayala, Pedro Strop, and Troy Patton all finishing as well with earned run averages under 3.00. Experts^[who?] were amazed as the team continued to outperform expectations, but regression never came that year. They battled with the New York Yankees for first place in the AL East until September, and earned their first playoff berth in 15 years by winning the second wild-card spot in the American League.

In the 'sudden death' wild-card game against the Texas Rangers, Joe Saunders (acquired in August of that year in exchange for Matt Lindstrom) defeated Yu Darvish, and the Orioles advance to the divisional round, where they faced a familiar opponent, the Yankees. The Orioles forced the series to go five games (losing games 1 and 3 of the series, while winning 2 and 4), but CC Sabathia outpitched the Orioles' Jason Hammel in Game 5 and the Orioles were eliminated from the playoffs.

Back to the playoffs (2015–2016)[edit]

On April 26, the Orioles scored 18 runs against the Boston Red Sox, the most runs they had scored in a single game, since they defeated the Cleveland Indians 18–9^[7] on April 19, 2006. The Orioles beat the Red Sox 18–7.^[8] On June 16, the Orioles scored 19 runs against the Philadelphia Phillies, making it the most runs the Orioles scored since earlier in the season against the Red Sox. The Orioles had 8 home runs during the game, a franchise record.^[9] The team then later got their 5000th win as the Orioles on June 28 with a shutout 4–0 win over the Indians. On August 16, the Orioles defeated the Oakland Athletics 18–2, during which the team tied a franchise record for hits in a single game with 26.^[10] On September 11, the Orioles rallied from a two-run deficit of 6–4 in the bottom of the 8th inning against the Kansas City Royals. The Orioles won the game 14–8. The rally included left fielder Nolan Reimold and designated hitter Steve Clevenger both hitting their first career grand slam home runs, making the Orioles the only franchise in major league history to hit multiple grand slams in the same inning in two different games, the last time being in 1986.^[11] On September 30, in a reverse of fortune, the Toronto Blue Jays clinched the AL East with a win over the Orioles in Baltimore where they had watched the Orioles celebrate their division title clinch the previous year.^[12]

Despite the 2016 season being another above .500 season for the Orioles, they failed to win their division, but were able to secure a wild card spot. However, they lost against the Toronto Blue Jays in the AL Wild Card game.

Rebuilding (2017–2022)[edit]

2017 season[edit]

The 2017 season was the Orioles' first losing season since the 2011 season. They finished 75–87 and last place in the American League East.

2018 season[edit]

The 2018 Orioles broke the record of most losses in franchise history, and instead of improving from their 75–87 finish from the previous season, they became the first team since the 2003 Detroit Tigers to win fewer than 50 games and the first to lose at least 110 games since the 2013 Houston Astros.

2019 season[edit]

By late August, the 2019 Orioles had lost twice as many games as they had won. Home runs were being hit at a record pace across the league, and on August 22, the team set a single-season MLB record for home runs allowed (12 years to the day where they lost 30–3 to the Texas Rangers).^[13] They ended with a record of 54–108, good for the second overall pick in the 2020 MLB Draft.

13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

As for the sixers, they've made mistakes but they, The Orioles, The Flyers are all footnotes.

I fixed it for you.

Only in the last year have the Orioles been "good".

the Adam Jones/JJ Hardy/Chris Davis team wasn't a serious contender.

They were an oasis of competence during 25 years of failure and total unwatchability.

I HATE the feeling of knowing my team is irrelevant 3 weeks into a season.  You know how I know that feeling?

Someone thought it would be wise to "tear it down" and build it back up. 

The Sixers had one sniff of championship quality, then they picked Harris over Butler. 

One year where, people thought, maybe these guys could be something...even then that team wasn't really built through the draft, there were trades and signings. 

This draft in particular isn't the one to go full Blackhawk on either. 

It is my hope that now that the playoffs are out of reach, I don't have to watch any of Staal, Johnson or Atkinson for the remainder of 2024. Pull the plug for the remaining 6 games and see if the draft position can be improved.

That's as far as I'll go down the tanking path. 

Maybe there will be some ping pong ball luck and the Flyers can move from 14 to 4 or someshit.

Rooting for ping pong balls, yeah, have fun with that.  

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

Erik Johnson in the moment, at the time, there was legitimately no reason outside of the marketing department in charge of manipulating the clinically brain dead fans among us that this was remotely a good idea let alone necessary. This was brain damage massaging the oxygen-deprived brain damaged imbeciles.

Who was going to play defense after the Seeler injury, the Walker trade, the Drysdale and Ristolainen injuries?

Who ? 

I wasn't wild about bringing that specific guy, but I understood the reasoning. They needed a body that could play defense in the NHL who didn't cost much. Johnson is not sticking around. 

My fan experience with total rebuilds has been horrible.

The Sixers and Orioles. 

I think if you want to wander the wilderness for 25 years, get rid of the guys that can play for picks.

It's played out in Camden Yards for 30 years and is playing out with the WFC's other tenant. 

**** losing 

@ruxpin

How 'bout them Sixers?

Also, would trading all the things actually be helpful?

Who on your list has value beyond Laughton? 

Couturier's contract is untradeable.

Atkinson's is as well. 

Who is giving up anything for him? 

Likewise, what's a 6th round pick in the return for Nick D going to do to help- anything?

Seeler,  what were you realistically thinking he brings back in a trade? A 2nd? Probably a 3rd. His presence hurts nothing and blocks no one. 

I don't see these moves or lack there of, moving the needle for a rebuild in anyway that fixes the actual problem.

Which is no Pasta or Bread in the cupboards. 

19 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

But they should have moved Laughton and Seeler too.

Laughton, who's contract expires next year is still valuable asset- either in the room or on the trade market.

He may be traded in the offseason, same with nearly anyone.

I don't think keeping him for this stretch run was managerial malpractice. 

I don't think Seeler's presence blocks anyone. 

Those are nibbling at the sides worries imo.

I don't feel bad about this season at all.

The management has to see what we see.

Trading the team's 2nd best defenceman? that was a move toward building something.

It didn't say "we're buying and this is a job well done". Which is how I take many of the "here we go again" posts's meaning.

The team isn't built but I think the direction is good.

Better than it has been in years. 

52 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

They aren't soft.

I wasn't talking about this year's Flyers team.

I think they've been really fun and I've posted here many times, they fight for every inch of everything for all 60 minutes. 

I wouldn't characterize this team as soft.  Beat up? whole 'nother question.

I was talking about the players in the league who've been thrown under the bus by Fonzie.

Lot's of them, the Pierre Luc-Dubois, Ryan Johanson who've run afoul of Torts wouldn't bruise a grape in a food fight. 

He trashes them because they are soft, and not great enough to warrant special treatment.

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

There's a reason a lot of players hate his guts.

Are they soft?

Are they the Dale Weisses of the league?

Who gives a **** if that guy's feelies are owwwey

51 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

He's made a career of throwing his players under it though.

 

Is it good coaching to keep putting a clearly broken down Cam Atkinson out there just because "veteran"? They aren't ALWAYS your best play, despite what Tortorella preaches.

Who?

He's not been a guy to call out his players in the press.

He has answered questions about players in a fashion that could be considered harsh.

He's had run ins with players who won't get with his program. 

I wouldn't say being a dick to his players is how he's made his career.

As for Cam Atkinson,  I think maybe he was playing a hunch that Cam had a big game in him, it turned out to be wrong. That happens. 

If there is a choice between a guy you've seen **** up a lot in the short time you've worked together;! Or a long time friend, a repsected, proven but struggling guy...who are you picking?

Don't tell me the newbie who's been not doing what you want.

If it's me, I want to see how the young players respond.  That's the point of not tearing it down. 

Last night was a missed opportunity to learn about Brink or Lyksell

27 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Briere talking Couturier into retirement.

No ****** way should Sean do that.

He's owed millions...**** you Flyers. 

Pay that man his money.

@CoachX

You could be right. 

He went from can't miss to where is he pretty quickly.

@Howie58

I think this is an interesting topic.

From my seat here in the taint of Pennsyltucky, I thought Torts was blindsided by the room playing like a 2nd year mites after inserting a guy who has been in the USA for 4 days.

I don't think his disappointment in his team can be overstated. That group and their camaraderie was one of the posts he hung his hat on this season. 

He knew he was putting Fedotov in a tough spot, he also knew his guys would rally around the newbie. 

Well they didn't, they mostly stopped playing after Fedotov stoned Barzal on the breakaway. 

I don't know why Konecny was stapled to the bench for the first 7 minutes of the 3rd period either. But he (Torts) was livid, he said all season he trusted that room and then they let him down in the biggest game of the year.

As for the PP's incompetence, Fonzie is loyal he's not going to throw his assistants under the bus. He just won't. 

As for the team dropping off in their performance...they played the best they could against very good teams for most of March.

I think when they boys saw MTL and CHI on the schedule they let down a little and realized they're ****** tired and beat up. I don't know how Sanhiem is able to play 26 minutes a night and not be able to practice.  

They over achieved for much of the season. If this stumble and freak out is how Danny and Jonesy and the rest of us learn which of the current guys we keep I think it's worth some histrionics from the coach.

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

York and Drysdale as my first pair is gonna work in the long run.

I don't think that's a first pair.

I think those guys play on different parings.

Oliver Bonk has good size, This Hunter MacDonald has good size and a mean streak, Carter Southeran has good size. 

You wouldn't need to put York and Drysdale together unless is was 6 on 5 or specialty teams.

Drysdale's skating is so good, he may ultimately thrive with a Chris Therrien/Darren Hatcher type as his partner. 

I feel like I need more data on Drysdale before I jettison him for magic beans. 

He's got some "you can't teaches" to his game that are evident in limited viewing. 

Give him some time to get healthy and coached up by Brad Shaw and make a determination then.

The injuries, they are concerning, maybe he out grows them. It happens. His body isn't fully grown. 

He's what? 21? That's young and he's nowhere near finished developing as an NHL defenseman.

I think there is significant room for his game to grow.

My favorite defenseman weren't super physical players. Lidstrom, Niedermeyer, Howe all managed to be pretty awesome. Drysdale skates like Niedermeyer- I'd definitely get a longer look at that talent.

2 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

It's not an implosion.  This is the kind of team you get when you have nothing but mids.

I dunno had a couple of the "mids" managed to stay healthy, I think this team beats that Islanders team and takes care of business vs at least Chicago.

These dudes are worn out. 

I do agree with your over-arching point though. 

I've been on here saying I think Joel Farabee is a guy worth keeping...then I look at his stats and I think differently.

Where has this guy gone?

He has been a non-factor for most of this season.

Last night would have been a night for him to announce he's a guy that can be counted on when it gets tough.

Instead, he was invisible. 

He's not really around the play or almost making something happen-he's been- like 10 minutes of almost treading water a night.

I thought he was going to be a good play-driving winger for many years, he's been mostly meh for the last two, I know he was weak from a neck re-hab last season...but this year? 

MIA.

I know guys are playing hurt, Konceny hasn't been right since blocking that shot @NYR. York and Sanhiem have been playing 30 minutes a night because who else was available? 

It's caught up, the clock looks to be striking mid-night.  

I wish this implosion would have happened in February instead of April. 

8 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Choosing Harris over Butler and the Mikal Bridges 

Would definitely like a do-over on Jimmy Buckets.