Thats it. Bob is now the # 1

[canoli]

My best guess for what Bob needs is the same thing I said Nitty needed, what Esche needed, what Boucher needed (his first time round) - Time, Support and a Clear Mission as the Starting Goalie.

It's just a guess. But Bob proved last year he can handle the work load, and he only gets better as the games add up. Naturally there's a burnout factor that his coaches have to determine, something Lavy and Reese didn't do very well last year. This year is a whole different thing, obviously, with Bryzgalov. Honestly I don't even have a guess what that guy needs - a plane ticket back to Russia would be my choice.

[aziz]

I am increasingly of the position that they didn't do anything beyond looking at his stats.

i swear they didn't even do that, not primarily. imo, they judged impact. splash-i-ness. they looked at the press coverage his pending free agency generated, they looked at the dollar figures he was throwing around and how the press largely agreed with it, and projected how "serious" it would make the flyers look to make that commitment. after all that, they looked at the stats to confirm everything else, but the point was the wow factor. which might be the single saddest thing i've ever seen from a NHL management staff this side of signing drury and gomez to $7mil+ contracts in the same offseason.

[doom88]

If Bryzgalov is "playing like ****" i don't think it is unreasonable to expect Bob to have played better. Not to be a Vezina candidate, not to save the team. Just played better than Bryz.

Last season Bob got more action more consistently. This year, not so much. Some quick points to note:

Bryz 40 GP (38 GS) - 5% coming from the bench

Bob 24 GP (20 GS) - 17% coming from the bench

Bob has been at a major disadvantage in getting game action, and is more frequently coming in cold. He's a 23 yr old 2nd year goalie who has played on the North American ice a little over a calendar year. Bryz is a seasoned vet with seven legit seasons under his belt.

Bob shouldn't be as good as Bryz yet, but in my opinion, the goals going in against Bryz are way softer. Bob let in a lot of those backdoor goals that the defense totally blows at covering. Bryz is letting in shots at any given second to any shooter.

Bryz

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/2594/gamelog;_ylt=AnCmDMchWUlvedP0Cu00BwVivLYF

Bob

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/4901/gamelog;_ylt=AnCmDMchWUlvedP0Cu00BwVivLYF

Bryz has been up and down all season, Bob has had an awful Feb - which I'll admit conveniently supports my blame of the recent defensive zone coverages. I do think the overall body of work suggests Bob is doing better, but not by a lot. However, there's no reason Bryz should be even in competition with someone of Bob's limited experience.

Time to pick one: develop Bob or beat a dead horse. Not that I posed a loaded question or anything.

[radoran]

Bob shouldn't be as good as Bryz yet, but in my opinion, the goals going in against Bryz are way softer.

In the context of a thread titled "That's it. Bob's the new #1" - I think it might be good for Bob to have been better than Bryz.

If Bob's going to be "the new #1."

which I'll admit conveniently supports my blame of the recent defensive zone coverages

With respect, I've been pointing out the problem of defensive zone laspes for months now.

Time to pick one: develop Bob or beat a dead horse. Not that I posed a loaded question or anything.

The Flyers picked the dead horse.

I've been very clear that I would have made a different choice. That choice is pretty much no longer available to us given the contract the dead horse has until the dead horse gets buried, sold, turns into a zombie or miraculously recovers....

[canoli]

That choice is pretty much no longer available to us given the contract the dead horse has until the dead horse gets buried, sold, turns into a zombie or miraculously recovers....

Why is the choice no longer available to us? Your HC, with all the usual pressures from above still decides who's starting doesn't he? God I hope so.

All season (since that's when Bryzgalov's "struggles" started) everyone has said "you have to play your big-money goalie. It's too embarrassing to sit him." Well we've all bought that line for 5 months, and the embarrassments keep getting worse.

The Pittsburgh game was the end. No goalie can let in those 3 stinkers and still expect to play, let alone start. What a shame Bob didn't distinguish himself that day; would've made things so much easier.

[radoran]

Why is the choice no longer available to us? Your HC, with all the usual pressures from above still decides who's starting doesn't he? God I hope so.

All season (since that's when Bryzgalov's "struggles" started) everyone has said "you have to play your big-money goalie. It's too embarrassing to sit him." Well we've all bought that line for 5 months, and the embarrassments keep getting worse.

The Pittsburgh game was the end. No goalie can let in those 3 stinkers and still expect to play, let alone start. What a shame Bob didn't distinguish himself that day; would've made things so much easier.

Right. To be clear - I'm not saying that Lavy couldn't start Bob now.

And start Bob next year.

And put Bryz on the bench.

So let's say he does that and Bob emerges as the top flight goalie some believe he will be.

In two years he's going to demand more money than the Flyers will likley be able to afford and the dead horse will still be in the stable with his NMC and seven more years on the contract...

I will say that if Lavy was going to make that decision to go with Bob "as the #1," it would be nice if Bob was obviously playing better than Bryz.

He hasn't, although I'll agree that in my view Bryz has let in more groaners and Pittsburgh was painful in the extreme.

[aziz]

All season (since that's when Bryzgalov's "struggles" started) everyone has said "you have to play your big-money goalie. It's too embarrassing to sit him." Well we've all bought that line for 5 months, and the embarrassments keep getting worse.

the problem isn't just one of having to play the big money goalie. it's one of having to play the big money goalie who will be here for years and years and years. if you had a big money goalie you thought you could conceivably get rid of, then the options are open. vancouver has a real opportunity to make a decision, because there are plenty of teams that would take luongo and his contract if the canucks decided to go with schneider. boston could go with rask, because thomas only has one season left on his deal. the flyers, though, they are stuck. barring some buyout magic this summer, bryzgalov will be at camp next fall, and the next and the next into forever. bryzgalov *is* a flyers' goalie for almost the next decade, and i don't think a team can ignore a guy who has claim to that large a chunk of their cap space for that long.

maybe you can sit a big money goalie for a few months. maybe for a season, even. not for 8 seasons, though. i could see a move made to bring someone in for the balance of this season, possibly. nabokov is the name mentioned, and i wouldn't be shocked. but it would be a bandaid for this season. he'd be allowed to walk away in july.

i'm looking forward to the playoffs, and i hope the flyers stay in them for 2 months...but i am also very interested to see what happens this summer. the bryzgalov mistake has been made obvious...it will be facinating to see what management does about it. if anything. which will they see as worse: playing bryzgalov for 8 years, or eating the buyout caphit for 16?

Edited February 21, 2012 by aziz

[Podein25]

...eating the buyout caphit for 16?

That is one big motherf#cking albatross

[canoli]

Dammit. I conveniently ignored an aspect of a situation I don't like. He's here for 8 more years. Right. That does tend to alter the landscape just a bit (!).

I have to believe Homer and Ed will attempt (at least) to move heaven and Earth to unload Bryzgalov this summer - somehow. The buyout clause - if it happens - won't be in place until September though, so I don't see how that could be an option. It is September isn't it? When the new CBA gets negotiated finalized?

edit: not sure whether the NHLPA and the NHL can agree before Sept 15th and actually begin the new CBA. I doubt it. The current one expires then, so the new one can't start until then.

Edited February 21, 2012 by canoli

[radoran]

Dammit. I conveniently ignored an aspect of a situation I don't like. He's here for 8 more years. Right. That does tend to alter the landscape just a bit (!).

I have to believe Homer and Ed will attempt (at least) to move heaven and Earth to unload Bryzgalov this summer - somehow. The buyout clause - if it happens - won't be in place until September though, so I don't see how that could be an option. It is September isn't it? When the new CBA gets negotiated?

If Homer and Ed weren't the two guys banging the drum the loudest "in support of Bryz" I would be happy to agree with you. And I'm not at all happy to disagree :-)

The problem, of course, is that Homer and Ed could move Heaven, Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Tattooine, Hoth and a small moon somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse and if Bryz says "no" they can't do squat.

The buyout will be the important thing. In the Best of All Possible Worlds they get LTIR relief for Pronger and can buyout Bryz.

I'd rather hit the Powerball if those sorts of things are going to be happening, however...

Edited February 21, 2012 by radoran
correct spelling of "Betelgeuse"

[canoli]

Homer and Ed could move Heaven, Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Tattooine, Hoth and a small moon somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse and if Bryz says "no" they can't do squat.

lol! Thank you for that - I needed a good laugh this morning.

I only wish it weren't true. Then again we all know those NMC/NTC are more a matter of form, sort of an honorary thing. You tell a pro athlete "we don't want you" often enough, publicly even...he gets real flexible in a hurry. Sure he may so "no" to Colombus or Tampa Bay but I guess his "list" will grow significantly if Homer makes it clear he's persona non grata around Philly.

[edit: the real problem won't be Bryzgalov it'll be finding some poor schmuck of a GM to take him and his ridiculous contract]

Edited February 21, 2012 by canoli

[terp]

the bryzgalov mistake has been made obvious...it will be facinating to see what management does about it. if anything. which will they see as worse: playing bryzgalov for 8 years, or eating the buyout caphit for 16?

This is my favorite topic: buyouts. My second favorite topic is summer relief for LTIR players who will never lace them up again but have over 35 contracts. Can you tell I'm a Flyers fan?

With regard to Bryzgalov, was there ever a more heaping, well deserved plate of crow than the one awaiting Snider? This is an unmitigated disaster and he will get one chance to fix it. It won't be through a trade but through the grace of a one-time buy out provision this summer. Will Snider man-up and eat his crow? Will Comcast allow him to? Or will Snider's error be permitted to linger in the Wells Fargo Center for 8 years like a hideous, perpetual bad fart?

[aziz]

It won't be through a trade but through the grace of a one-time buy out provision this summer.

a hypothetical one-time buyout provision. i'm not close to sure there will be one. if there is, i don't have any doubt the contract will be ended. the deal is worse than pronger's at this point; at least pronger can be LTIR'd.

[JackStraw]

And that's what boggles my mind more than anything. Sure, the system in Phoenix was conducive to him playing well, but he still had to make saves, system or not. How can any NHL goalie allow the first Cook’s goal in the Saturday’s game? And most of the goals he lets in are the saves that just about ANY goalie, let alone a former Vezina candidate, is supposed to be able to make.

I don’t want to start anything, but I really have a feeling that there is something more to it. Something makes Bryzgalov uncomfortable. What it is – I have no idea. But he clearly looks uncomfortable playing this year.

I agree with you MD. There's really no doubt in my mind that Bryz is a better goalie, much better in fact, than what we've seen. If he wasn't he would never have even sniffed the NHL or made the Russian Olympic team (for whom he played extremely well in 2010, despite the fact that the team in front of him couldn't even spell defense, in English, Russian, or any other language).

I think he put too much pressure on himself when he signed, talking about the Flyers history and saying that he wanted to bring the Cup back to Philly. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but I think maybe he thought he had to be the hero riding in on a white Siberian Husky to save the franchise. I distinctly remember that very early on he looked very good. But somewhere things got broken and he's let it get to him and now he's a mess.

He should pick up the phone and call Jimmy Rollins, or Mike Schmidt, or Donovan McNabb and get some pointers about being a professional athlete in Philadelphia.

[terp]

if there is, i don't have any doubt the contract will be ended.

Sure it is speculation on my part, but I can't see any reason why there wouldn't be one, especially if small market teams want the Flyers to support or at least move in the direction of whatever level of salary cap they seek. The Flyers can do fine with less money, so long as they are allowed out from under these bad contracts.

I'm a lot more concerned that Comcast and Snider won't take advantage of a buy-out cap holiday out of a mix of denial, ego and sticker shock.

[aziz]

yeah, if the cap comes down, i would expect there would one. i just don't know that the cap is going to come down. the big and small market teams can argue all they want, but i can't see the PA agreeing to another pay cut or a reduction in total player salaries. they feel like they got screwed last time, and with whats-his-name now in charge......

[terp]

yeah, if the cap comes down, i would expect there would one.

Not sure the cap has to come down in order for there to be a one time buy-out provision. Under any circumstances, it seems like an easy one for the players to give and an easy one for small market teams to accept so long as they are satisfied with everything else, irrespective of a higher or lower cap. Of course the players aren't going to be happy with a lower cap, but you know what I mean. The rationale is that it wipes the slate clean for big market teams that got aggressive (Rangers, Flyers, Canucks, Canadiens er..Wade Redden, Roberto Luongo, Scott Gomez, Ilya Bryzgalov/Jody Shelly/Danny Briere; OK, the Flyers are in a league of their on in this regard). With the buy-out provision, small market teams end up mostly insulated from the cost of fixing these mistakes except for indirect inflation of salaries on the UFA market, a market most small market teams don't participate in as much anyway.

Call me an optimist but I smell a deal on a buy out so long as they can agree on everything else (this last part may take some time). Meanwhile, I think Lavy will quit if he has to start a $51MM contract instead of a goaltender for several more seasons. It must suck to be his coach or his wife right now.

[aziz]

you might be right. i can't think of a party that would oppose a penalty-free buyout window. the players who get bought out can sign new contracts and start making additional money right away, the teams get their cap number reduced, and one owner is not effected by another's buyout, so....

i have this feeling i'm missing something, though. someone has to be opposed to penalty free buyouts, because someone wanted buyout penalties in the last CBA to begin with.

i'm hoping that person has changed their mind; the flyers could solve several problems if they can clear some of these contracts.

[terp]

@aziz

I think it is the team's #1 issue in the new CBA.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a constituency, perhaps small market GMs, that doesn't like it. The rationale would be that it is rewarding irresponsible behavior which led to salary inflation blah blah blah. The Flyers are definitely guilty. However, I think the organizations that oppose buy-outs would have to fold on the issue to get other things. This is pretty typical fare because there are effectively at least three parties to the CBA: players, small market teams, big market teams.

[Flyingswede]

@brelic

"Not for nothing, but St Louis has 12 shutouts under Hitch. TWELVE!

I'm not saying I want Hitch, but it's a trademark of his system. And I think we're seeing the trademark of Lavi's.

SO, will a different goalie really change that?"

And New Jersey has TEN shootout wins.

I like Lavi's system. I like it much more than Hitch's. A golie would most def change things to the better ofcourse. Take a look at the first goal against us in the pens game. NO system can prevent that. That was all Bryz fault. The defenseman (I think it was Grossman) positions in the middle so the forward cant get in front forcing him to shoot from the side. How come Bryz didnt watched his right post??

[Mad Dog]

i'm looking forward to the playoffs, and i hope the flyers stay in them for 2 months...

And putting aside (at least for now) how he has struggled so far, I think it's a given that his playoff performance will basically determine his fate. Snider - as stubborn and heisty as he is - has shown that he is willing to acknowledge his mistakes. And from the links Rad pasted previously, this was baiscally a unilateral Snider's decision.... which I didn't know. I really think if Bryzgalov has a performance similar to what he has given in the regular season, Snider will go out of his way to get rid of Bryzgalov. I don't know *how* he will do it, but I am almost certain he will get it done. I think in this case, his impatience and hastiness will actually be to the team's advanatge. But I just can't see them going with this goaltending into the next training camp. This has been BY FAR the worst Flyers' netminder over the last 12-15 years. It cannot continue for long.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Mad Dog

[radoran]

If Snider's first name was "Dan" many people would be having a field day talking about how the owner was making ridiculously dumb decisions by inserting himself into player personnell decisions.

But, of course, that would be wrong...

[Mad Dog]

I think he put too much pressure on himself when he signed, talking about the Flyers history and saying that he wanted to bring the Cup back to Philly. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but I think maybe he thought he had to be the hero riding in on a white Siberian Husky to save the franchise. I distinctly remember that very early on he looked very good. But somewhere things got broken and he's let it get to him and now he's a mess.

He should pick up the phone and call Jimmy Rollins, or Mike Schmidt, or Donovan McNabb and get some pointers about being a professional athlete in Philadelphia.

It very well may be the case. At teh very least, I havge no doubt it plays at least *some* role in his beyond crappy play. He continues talking about how different it is to play in this city. And even though I don't have a degree of a psychologist, clearly, if it's enough for him to bring this up, and bring this up repeatedly, it's in his head and it's on his mind.

Well, if that's really the case (which we'll likely never find out), that could be reparable. If Bryzgalov is being his own worst enemy, that should pass with time. Once he overcomes nervousness and self-induced pressure, logic suggests he will start looking more like himself. Will the Flyers have enough patience is a whole different question altogether.

[canoli]

Well that's an interesting spin on it MD and I sure hope you're right. Only thing is you can spin it the other way too, where a player who's spooked by the lights of the big city never grows out of it. Unfortunately I think the 2nd spin is more likely. The city won't change, the pressures will only mount as the POs get nearer and every bad goal will be magnified that much more.

I would like him gone - as I guess most of us would. There's never been a goalie in Philly who I thought would never play well - even Biron turned in good games now and then. Bryzgalov has too...sort of...I can think of 1 or 2. But with him even his "good" games feature at least 1 bad, groaning OMG goal.

[terp]

Snider - as stubborn and heisty as he is - has shown that he is willing to acknowledge his mistakes.

I don't necessarily doubt this but...can you give an example that would match this in scale in which Snider manned up and the organization moved on from it? I think we are in uncharted waters here.