2022 NHL Draft - Flyers Version (#5 Overall)

[CoachX]

32 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I read that Chicago wants the equivalent of four number one picks

i havent read that. If true, its absurd. There are a lot of reports that the Flyers are legitimate dealers for AD. I gotta believe a price tag that high, if known, would have eliminated the Flyers immediately

[RonJeremy]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

no player in the league is, so thats not a legit argument. This number 5 pick isnt goingto do it either

 

if one of those assets is JVR, then yes we are. My recent trade idea was just me pulling it out of my ass. But, lets say TK, and Provy are moved, there have been numerous posts that Provy will be nothing more than a number 2 dman, and that TK might do better elsewhere. You have to give to get. And you Ellis to contend with, not to mention cap space

 

So if you move 3 assets, clearing significant space, gut some of the roster, and bring back a player who if he was in the draft toady, would be a consensus top 5 pick, it would make sense

First off Chicago does not have to take a stiff like JVR, they are in the drivers seat. They are not desperate to trade DeBrincat, they have lots of good offers that don't include a 7 million $ stiff So there goes that idea, they are not taking JVR. The defense is already suspect  with Ellis out and Risto being horrible and then you want to dump Provorov who is the second best dman, can you imagine how bad the defense would be without Provy.

 

We would be a better team with keeping TK and Provy, than we would by trading them for DeBrincat. My argument is legit,  Debrincat can help the right team enough to propel them to a championship ,but not the Flyers. DeBrincat is a final piece to an almost completed puzzle, which  the Flyers are far from., we are missing too many pieces.My whole argument is , we are in this for the long term, not a quick fix. Having 3-4 good players makes us a way better team than creating more holes just to add one great player.

 

Why get DeBrincat so we can be almost as bad as last year, we can easily do that without giving up good players. No one is expecting our #5 pick to step in immediately.  We need a center and defense far more than we need a small tiny player to add to our already small team. Jiracek or Gauthier can be in the NHL within two seasons. We don't need them right away, we have several more years of sucking left.

[RonJeremy]

29 minutes ago, CoachX said:

i havent read that. If true, its absurd. There are a lot of reports that the Flyers are legitimate dealers for AD. I gotta believe a price tag that high, if known, would have eliminated the Flyers immediately

I hear we are out of the running now anyway..im sure Shmuck will still make some kind of trade. He's actually overdue for a a good trade,  even Eddie Mush picked a winner here and there. 

[pilldoc]

From Charlie O'Connor of The Athletic ....

 

https://theathletic.com/3401809/2022/07/06/philadelphia-flyers-first-round-nhl-draft/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

 

Last week, however, Fletcher made a fairly significant adjustment to that implied approach.

 

“Well, if we’re going to trade the pick outright, it needs to be for a player in a certain age group. A player that could help us win now, but also win for several years,” Fletcher elaborated. “I do not think we are looking for someone in their late 20s or early 30s.”

So, in other words, they’d consider trading No. 5 for a young star in his early-to-mid 20s. A star like … Alex DeBrincat, let’s say?

Mark Lazerus and Scott Powers reported Sunday that the Flyers are “in the mix” with the No. 5 pick as the centerpiece of any package for the 24-year-old winger. And make no mistake — DeBrincat is exactly the type of player the Flyers should be targeting. He’s a young scorer with two 40-goal seasons already to his credit, who scored 41 just last year. For an organization severely lacking in impact talent, DeBrincat would be just what the doctor ordered. Based on what I’ve heard, I do believe the Flyers have legitimate interest in DeBrincat, which makes perfect sense based on the organizational desire to both rapidly retool and reinfuse the team with top-end talent.

 

Sportsnet’s Elliotte Friedman reported Tuesday that as of now, the Flyers have not been willing to part with the No. 5 pick in offers for DeBrincat. Which also should come as little surprise. For starters, No. 5 is the Flyers’ prime dealable asset — it makes little sense to offer it up now, with days remaining before the pick needs to be made, even if Fletcher in the back of his mind knows he will eventually part with it, if necessary.

 

Sportsnet’s Elliotte Friedman reported Tuesday that as of now, the Flyers have not been willing to part with the No. 5 pick in offers for DeBrincat. Which also should come as little surprise. For starters, No. 5 is the Flyers’ prime dealable asset — it makes little sense to offer it up now, with days remaining before the pick needs to be made, even if Fletcher in the back of his mind knows he will eventually part with it, if necessary.

 

The Flyers have organizational needs by position that go beyond “just get elite players,” though.

 

For starters, they’re very weak organizationally down the middle. Yes, they have Couturier and Kevin Hayes locked up under contract for the foreseeable future. But both are past the age of 30 now, and presumably on the downslope of their respective careers. Morgan Frost’s slow development (thus far) into a clear-cut top-nine NHL center has put the Flyers in a tough spot behind Couturier and Hayes, especially with the flop of Nolan Patrick. And Frost is probably the Flyers’ only center prospect with high-end offensive potential, even if it’s looking less likely by the year that he’ll reach it. Tanner Laczynski can play center, but he’s more in the Scott Laughton vein, both in terms of versatility and scoring upside (he’s also coming off back-to-back hip surgeries and is 25). Elliot Desnoyers perhaps could be a pro center, but that’s not a sure thing. And while Jay O’Brien could well join the organization once his days at Boston University are finished, the time when he was viewed as a potential top-end center prospect is long gone. He’s viewed as more of a potential bottom-sixer now, even if he ultimately makes it.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by pilldoc

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

First off Chicago does not have to take a stiff like JVR, they are in the drivers seat. They are not desperate to trade DeBrincat, they have lots of good offers that don't include a 7 million $ stiff So there goes that idea, they are not taking JVR. The defense is already suspect  with Ellis out and Risto being horrible and then you want to dump Provorov who is the second best dman, can you imagine how bad the defense would be without Provy.

 

We would be a better team with keeping TK and Provy, than we would by trading them for DeBrincat. My argument is legit,  Debrincat can help the right team enough to propel them to a championship ,but not the Flyers. DeBrincat is a final piece to an almost completed puzzle, which  the Flyers are far from., we are missing too many pieces.My whole argument is , we are in this for the long term, not a quick fix. Having 3-4 good players makes us a way better team than creating more holes just to add one great player.

 

Why get DeBrincat so we can be almost as bad as last year, we can easily do that without giving up good players. No one is expecting our #5 pick to step in immediately.  We need a center and defense far more than we need a small tiny player to add to our already small team. Jiracek or Gauthier can be in the NHL within two seasons. We don't need them right away, we have several more years of sucking left.

I really don't get your arguments at all...

 

Argument 1: Flyer shouldn't trade multiple assets for a top offensive talent, because he wont win them a championship.  ok. we know. who is actually thinking they are championship team?

 

Argument 2: No team (specifically CHI) will take JVR. hmmm, well last year no tam would take Voracek. However, the Flyers can leverage the #5 to include JVR, or no deal. The biggest dead weight on this team, in terms of talent and cap, is JVR. Having the #5 can definitely get JVR out the door

 

Argument 3: The team is better off with Provy and TK. sure, just like they were last season. You cant get without giving something

 

Argument 4: Keep the #5 and draft a guy who will be ready IN TWO YEARS. I'm pretty sure you are convinced CF couldn't find his asss with both hands and a mirror, but you want to trust him with drafting the right guy. JVR and Patrick say hello

 

You have been a staunch supporter of all the young guys in the system. I can get on board with that. But you don't want to move any of the existing players on the roster. The Flyers have come out and said they need top end talent. Thats an acknowledgement that dont think they have it. You can get it in the draft for sure, if you are good at drafting. But you can also get it by making trades. If you trade a valuable pick, that might possibly be a good player, for a guaranteed already really good player, that makes your team better.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

I hear we are out of the running now anyway..im sure Shmuck will still make some kind of trade. He's actually overdue for a a good trade,  even Eddie Mush picked a winner here and there. 

Not sure where you heard that. I've been reading every article I can find. They all say the Flyers are trying to make a deal

 

maybe we have different internet

[CoachX]

@pilldoc

 

whats your take? Are the Flyers in on AD? Do you think it would be a good move?

 

Personally I think AD is too old, or will be one day, is past his prime offensively, and won't be worth the contract the Flyers would give him....eventually

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

45 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I really don't get your arguments at all...

 

Argument 1: Flyer shouldn't trade multiple assets for a top offensive talent, because he wont win them a championship.  ok. we know. who is actually thinking they are championship team?

 

Argument 2: No team (specifically CHI) will take JVR. hmmm, well last year no tam would take Voracek. However, the Flyers can leverage the #5 to include JVR, or no deal. The biggest dead weight on this team, in terms of talent and cap, is JVR. Having the #5 can definitely get JVR out the door

 

Argument 3: The team is better off with Provy and TK. sure, just like they were last season. You cant get without giving something

 

Argument 4: Keep the #5 and draft a guy who will be ready IN TWO YEARS. I'm pretty sure you are convinced CF couldn't find his asss with both hands and a mirror, but you want to trust him with drafting the right guy. JVR and Patrick say hello

 

You have been a staunch supporter of all the young guys in the system. I can get on board with that. But you don't want to move any of the existing players on the roster. The Flyers have come out and said they need top end talent. Thats an acknowledgement that dont think they have it. You can get it in the draft for sure, if you are good at drafting. But you can also get it by making trades. If you trade a valuable pick, that might possibly be a good player, for a guaranteed already really good player, that makes your team better.

The problem is that we have an idiot management group that thinks they can contend with an 'aggressive retool.' I still hold out hope that Tortorella might be enough to say to management that this needs to be stripped back and that they identify a small number of players to build around.

 

And contrary to Charlie O'Connor, I believe that Frost breaks out in a big way this year. Not only that, Noah Cates might be the most complete rookie I've seen and he, Frost and Tippett played really well together. They were snakebit, but they played really well. I have high hopes for that trio. 

[CoachX]

12 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

The problem is that we have an idiot management group that thinks they can contend with an 'aggressive retool.' I still hold out hope that Tortorella might be enough to say to management that this needs to be stripped back and that they identify a small number of players to build around.

 

And contrary to Charlie O'Connor, I believe that Frost breaks out in a big way this year. Not only that, Noah Cates might be the most complete rookie I've seen and he, Frost and Tippett played really well together. They were snakebit, but they played really well. I have high hopes for that trio. 

So you are saying that if they trade the #5 pick, its a good move? Would dealing assets for Alex DeBrincat be smart?

 

If those players you mention, do what you indicate they might, does that make moving TK easier?

[RonJeremy]

44 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I really don't get your arguments at all...

 

Argument 1: Flyer shouldn't trade multiple assets for a top offensive talent, because he wont win them a championship.  ok. we know. who is actually thinking they are championship team?

 

Exactly my point, so why add a player who will tie up 9 million for 8 years, when we won't be good for another 5 years, you add a guy like Debrincat when your close to a Cup.

 

Argument 2: No team (specifically CHI) will take JVR. hmmm, well last year no tam would take Voracek. However, the Flyers can leverage the #5 to include JVR, or no deal. The biggest dead weight on this team, in terms of talent and cap, is JVR. Having the #5 can definitely get JVR out the door

 

 We traded Voracek for a less $$ contract but longer term,  that was a wash.

Why would you trade a #5 to get JVR out the door, we are not going anywhere, there us no rush to give up any assets, we already wasted a first and two seconds in desperate trades Hang on to him until the deadline and then a contender will easily take him for a 5th round pick for the 3 million left on his contract for a playoff run.

 

Argument 3: The team is better off with Provy and TK. sure, just like they were last season. You cant get without giving something

 

The whole point is you don't make an even bigger hole in the defense to get one offensive player. The key is balance, you don't weaken one area to strengthen another,  DeBrincat makes us no better of a team if you trade Provy and TK. 

 

Argument 4: Keep the #5 and draft a guy who will be ready IN TWO YEARS. I'm pretty sure you are convinced CF couldn't find his asss with both hands and a mirror, but you want to trust him with drafting the right guy. JVR and Patrick say hello.

Shmuck did not draft those guys. His picks have actually been good, its his trades that are a disaster. So I would rather have the pick,  we already wasted a first and two seconds in Risto.

44 minutes ago, CoachX said:

 

You have been a staunch supporter of all the young guys in the system. I can get on board with that. But you don't want to move any of the existing players on the roster. The Flyers have come out and said they need top end talent. Thats an acknowledgement that dont think they have it. You can get it in the draft for sure, if you are good at drafting. But you can also get it by making trades. If you trade a valuable pick, that might possibly be a good player, for a guaranteed already really good player, that makes your team better.

The Flyers are not the team that should be giving up three players/picks for one guy who will not make one bit of difference. I have no problem trading roster players.. for example if you packaged TK and Provy and got 3-4 assets back, then you make that kinda deal. We are building a team, you don't get better by creating bigger holes just to get a big name player. Yeah they need top end talent but having three solid players in three different positions gives you a better team than having one star and holes everywhere else 

[RonJeremy]

4 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So you are saying that if they trade the #5 pick, its a good move? Would dealing assets for Alex DeBrincat be smart?

 

If those players you mention, do what you indicate they might, does that make moving TK easier?

I have said countless times we have our best prospects on right wing, Foerester, Brink, Tippett and Allison  all scorers and it makes TK expendable.  I was hoping for Ottawas #7 and a prospect. We need to be getting back multiple assets in any trade not giving them up. We have no one to replace Ellis already, that's a big problem and if you trade Provy, who in gods name replaces him. 

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Not sure where you heard that. I've been reading every article I can find. They all say the Flyers are trying to make a deal

 

maybe we have different internet

Are you watching CNN?

[flyercanuck]

10 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I have said countless times we have our best prospects on right wing, Foerester, Brink, Tippett and Allison  all scorers and it makes TK expendable.  I was hoping for Ottawas #7 and a prospect. We need to be getting back multiple assets in any trade not giving them up. We have no one to replace Ellis already, that's a big problem and if you trade Provy, who in gods name replaces him. 

 

First of all, none of Foerster/Brink/Tippett/Allison has proven to be anywhere near as good as Konecny at this point, so how is he expendable? 

 

And looking at Fletchers history of trades...do you really want him making any more deals? Really? 

 

I mean, REALLY?!?

[flyer4ever]

27 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I have said countless times we have our best prospects on right wing, Foerester, Brink, Tippett and Allison  all scorers and it makes TK expendable.  I was hoping for Ottawas #7 and a prospect. We need to be getting back multiple assets in any trade not giving them up. We have no one to replace Ellis already, that's a big problem and if you trade Provy, who in gods name replaces him. 

TK is a proven nhl player. None of those prospects have proven anything at the nhl level over any length of time. 

And chuckles has proven over and over to be a horrible gm. 

I would move Atkinson and Couturier before TK. But what do I know. Young, can skate, competitive, decent value contract, healthy. Why would I trade that.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

58 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So you are saying that if they trade the #5 pick, its a good move? Would dealing assets for Alex DeBrincat be smart?

 

If those players you mention, do what you indicate they might, does that make moving TK easier?

If they trade 5, everyone needs to go. I can't imagine Tortorella going to the Flyers and then seeing them deal 5 for DeBrincat. It makes no sense to acquire Alex when they have SOOOO many other holes/unknowns in the lineup. That 5 should be a center piece, not a give away. And while I think Nature Boy and Danny Briere realize that, Schmuck is probably on the hot seat and could care less.

 

I have no interest in moving TK. Allison can't be relied upon health wise, Foerster has played what, 30 games in the past two years? He's a full year behind in his development. Brink is going to need a learning curve and Tippett is the only one ready for full time play. Moving TK would be absolutely disastrous for the club. He's also a lot better than the numbers indicate and has had the typical Philadelphia development of "check, check, check" and not have the rest of his game developed. 

 

In all reality, the Flyers are in NO position to make a deal that would involve swinging for the fences. Not only that, but they need to get Samu Tuomaala back on track because they buggered his development last year (he should have gone to the OHL and not the AHL, but Schmuck thought elsewise, Tuomaala gets hurt and then he's bounced around the Finnish Elite League when he gets back to Finland).  Hopefully Sami Kapanen can get Tuomaala back on track after the disastrous handling.

[RonJeremy]

43 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

First of all, none of Foerster/Brink/Tippett/Allison has proven to be anywhere near as good as Konecny at this point, so how is he expendable? 

 

And looking at Fletchers history of trades...do you really want him making any more deals? Really? 

 

I mean, REALLY?!?

No of course they haven’t proven anything, but based on their potential, it would make Konecny expendable ,especially on a rebuilding team. They are all projected as goal scoring right wings, so if you felt on of them can step in and score 20 goals and someone offered you something real good for Konecny, then you might do it. Konecny is an UFA in three or four years, do you think he is dying to stay in Philly with all the trade rumors and losing. 

[RonJeremy]

31 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

TK is a proven nhl player. None of those prospects have proven anything at the nhl level over any length of time. 

And chuckles has proven over and over to be a horrible gm. 

I would move Atkinson and Couturier before TK. But what do I know. Young, can skate, competitive, decent value contract, healthy. Why would I trade that.

I would trade Coots and Atkinson too, but lots of times you have to trade someone that the other teams actually want. TK is an UFA in3 or 4 years , I’ll bet he can’t wait to get out of Philly. We suck and no matter what anyone thinks we are rebuilding, how useles are Coots and Hayes gonna be in 3 years, Ellis is probably finished. If we traded TK, instead of being the fourth worst team ,we might be first or second. TK will be leaving for UFA just as we start to improve.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

Are you watching CNN?

REPORTED!

 

YOU ARE FORBIDDEN FROM TALKING TO ME ANYMORE!

[flyer4ever]

7 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I would trade Coots and Atkinson too, but lots of times you have to trade someone that the other teams actually want. TK is an UFA in3 or 4 years , I’ll bet he can’t wait to get out of Philly. We suck and no matter what anyone thinks we are rebuilding, how useles are Coots and Hayes gonna be in 3 years, Ellis is probably finished. If we traded TK, instead of being the fourth worst team ,we might be first or second. TK will be leaving for UFA just as we start to improve.

For me, as I have said many times in this group, its all about asset management, and where the team is at competitively. IMHO, asume everything happens that has been rumored. Ellis plays, Coots plays and wins the Selke, Hayes playes 82 games, Cooley falls to 5 and plays opening night, Allison is healthy and they trade TK and Provy for Debrincat. It is still a team that MAYBE makes the playoffs. So you look at projecting when they can be Cup competitive, not mediocre and make your moves on that basis. Once again, high conjecture considering how many times the Flyers have bucked convention in drafting, but lets say they draft Bedard next year. Still 3 years away, you only shortened the retool by a year. So for me, I really don't see a competitive team for at least 4 years. Projecting anything different is a fools errand. There are some decent pieces, with good coaching and development, 2 or 3 good drafts, shrewd cap management, ....... wait a minute, I just woke up. 

Dysfunction will never leave Flyer junction.

[RonJeremy]

5 minutes ago, CoachX said:

REPORTED!

 

YOU ARE FORBIDDEN FROM TALKING TO ME ANYMORE!

I am extremely hurt that you canceled me.

[RonJeremy]

25 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

No of course they haven’t proven anything, but based on their potential, it would make Konecny expendable ,especially on a rebuilding team. They are all projected as goal scoring right wings, so if you felt on of them can step in and score 20 goals and someone offered you something real good for Konecny, then you might do it. Konecny is an UFA in three or four years, do you think he is dying to stay in Philly with all the trade rumors and losing. 

Shmuck is gonna make trades just to try and save his job, let’s hope Briere has enough influence to not let him get fleeced. Maybe Briere can control the teleprompter and cue cards, that seems to work.

[RonJeremy]

57 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

TK is a proven nhl player. None of those prospects have proven anything at the nhl level over any length of time. 

And chuckles has proven over and over to be a horrible gm. 

I would move Atkinson and Couturier before TK. But what do I know. Young, can skate, competitive, decent value contract, healthy. Why would I trade that.

Remember when we traded 50 goal scorer Recchi for Desjardins and a relatively unknown big winger LeClair. That trade was based not only on Desjardins , but also the potential of LeClair. Some people were like , how could you trade our top goal scorer. Clarke had 2/3 of a line with Lindros and Renberg and saw the potential of putting LeClair with Lindros and Renberg, the rest is history…. Sometimes you trade a proven guy with the thought that a younger ,cheaper guy can replace him. It may not payoff immediately, but sometimes it takes a little time and pays off big time. Since we are rebuilding and we have four “potential “ scoring right wings, if we got a great offer for TK, why not do it. We are a non playoff team anyway, losing one winger will keep us the same as we already are….out of the playoffs.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

. It makes no sense to acquire Alex when they have SOOOO many other holes/unknowns in the lineup. That 5 should be a center piece, not a give away

If they keep the 5, it's only ONE player. That doesn't fill "holes". At best, it's hopefully a good player to fill ONE spot. It doesnt equate to filling any more than that. AD is a top tier player right now, and will probably be better than what they draft at that position

 

All of these arguments surround the point that any trade will be multiple assets for ONE player. Highly unlikely considering trading a draft pick for a guy with that kind of pricetag does not give you the cap space to sign him

 

 

[RonJeremy]

4 hours ago, FireDillabaugh said:

"Potential" means very little until it's realized and shows itself.  I'm the first to say how much I want TK to wake up and do so much more for this team.  But, he's an established NHL player.  He's not an asset that's going to get a return like the 7th pick and Ridly Greig.  But, he's an established NHL player.  Would love to see Allison stay healthy.  Would love to see Brink approach his ceiling.  Would love to see Tippett suddenly become a 40/40 guy(ridiculous expectation from what he's shown).  Would love to see Foerster play an NHL game before placing him in a top line RW position when he's a center...  But, the fact is those things haven't happened.

Did your big head even absorb what I said about the LeClair trade? You are not the smartest guy in the room in spite  of what you think. The LeClair trade was based on potential,which became realized. So in your wold, that can never happen again.  TK is a good player, we are a bad team, so in the long run, by the time  we are good , he will be an UFA. So if there is a good deal for him you think about making it. I never said he can get us 4 or 5 assets.  TK is a 30 goal or more scorer on a good team with good line mates, Grieg is an unproven prospect and the 7th pick is not a top 3 pick. So it’s not unreasonable to expect that for Konecny. ? 

Edited July 7, 2022 by radoran

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

All of these arguments surround the point that any trade will be multiple assets for ONE player. Highly unlikely considering trading a draft pick for a guy with that kind of pricetag does not give you the cap space to sign him

I realize I'm quoting myself,  but what I mean to do is correct myself. I typed the above statement under duress....I couldn't find the remote again

 

What I was trying to say, is the thought that trading the 5 pick for multiple assets, any worth having, isn't feasible if you don't have the cap room to sign those assets.

 

I'm wondering,  if CHI took TK, JVR and the 5, for AD, would that change any of these arguments ?