Kronwall hit on Voracek

[Vanflyer]

@SpikeDDS

Look at the videos that I posted here to JackStraw. Clowe, Heatley, Havlat, Kessler. He leaves his feet on everyone of them. Some worse than others. He has it timed excellently, but he still does and knows what he is doing. He does it so he can get extra thrust and not take the brunt of the hit. He is not a big guy- that is how he gets the power of his hits.

I do not agree that he is leaving his feet as a follow through on the hit. I believe he is leaving his feet right before impact to get additional power and leverage into the hit. I also believe it is FULLY his intent to knock the player "out" and not as much a "hockey play" to separate the puck from the player.

[SpikeDDS]

Kronwall watches the opponent's eyes and allows them to think he's backing off the blue line and that it is safe to fish for the puck. When the opponent looks down, Kronwell starts to close and he's got the skating ability to catch them with their heads down. In other words, his whole thing is to create a situation in which he is hitting a player who is in a vulnerable position. This is, by definition, hitting to hurt. We've been through the debate about whether his hit on Voracek was or should be legal, or not, but I think it should be clear to everyone on both side of the debate that he is hitting to hurt. I would add skating to positioning and timing. Edit: It clearly is dangerous to the opponents. Just ask Martin Havlat, Jake Voracek, or Dany Heatley.

terp,

In your way of thinking, how stupid and careless does a player have to play before they are held responsible for putting themselves in a position to get hurt? Where do you draw the line? When is a player responsible for knowing what is going on around him on the ice, and when his he NOT responsible? These are not blindside hits. NONE of them are!

So is your rule that someone gets 2 seconds after they receive the puck before you can hit them? Three? Should we make it ten? How about 30? Just keep the 'ol head down, and no one can ever hit you in the good 'ol tHL (terp Hockey League).

And you're blaming Kronwall because he skates too well? ARe you kidding?! So I guess being too good a skater should be penalized now, is that it? Kronwall 2 minutes for being too quick on his skates! Give us a break! Take that Datsyuk goal back! He dangles way too good! Those poor goalies!

If you can't learn to keep your head up, there's a place for you in the tHL.

For the rest of us, we prefer big boy hockey in the NHL where you keep your head down at your own peril.

[SpikeDDS]

@SpikeDDS Look at the videos that I posted here to JackStraw. Clowe, Heatley, Havlat, Kessler. He leaves his feet on everyone of them. Some worse than others. He has it timed excellently, but he still does and knows what he is doing. He does it so he can get extra thrust and not take the brunt of the hit. He is not a big guy- that is how he gets the power of his hits. I do not agree that he is leaving his feet as a follow through on the hit. I believe he is leaving his feet right before impact to get additional power and leverage into the hit. I also believe it is FULLY his intent to knock the player "out" and not as much a "hockey play" to separate the puck from the player.

I've done most of those (I'm not sure if it's all of them or not, I'll be honest) in slo-mo, and you are incorrect on all I've done but Kesler until AFTER the contact begins. One skate sometimes goes, but only in Keslers--for all of 4 frames--are both of his skates in the air.

And if you're gonna get so technical at to say that 1/10 of 1 second before means before instead of AS contact is made, then we're just gonna have to disagree. These are in SHARP contrast to Ovie's charge, yet Kronwall is the dirty player. Right.

[Vanflyer]

@SpikeDDS

Yeah, we will have to disagree. Like I said before- he has it timed very well-BUT he knows exactly what he is doing.

I am not sure where Ovie comes into this discussion, because I thought we were discussing Kronwall. I know Ovie does it too, but that is besides the point. The one thing you can at least say about Ovie- despite him leaving his feet always, is he is not head hunting like Kronwall. The other thing is the Ovechkin will at least answer the bell and is not a big mangina like Kronwall.

[doom88]

Apparently, someone hasn't let go of those feelings of revenge as much as he said he did, and tried to accuse someone else of having a reading comprehension problem. Apparently, someone isn't being honest with himself...or anyone else. Ya gotta let it go man.

To pull a Spike, if action A doesn't happen, nor does B. Ergo, if Kronwall doesn't headhunt, he won't get his. I'm over yet another suspect hit on a Flyer, but that doesn't mean that Kronwall is a saint.

[Phillygrump]

There IS a price to be paid for playing hockey carelessly. Voracek AGREES! Your own guy! So let it go.

You let it go. Last time I checked I'm on the Flyers forum Spike. I think your boy is dirty as hell and I think you're defending him because you're being a homer. Thats fine, but don't sell it to me here. My opinion won't change. I've stated my reasons you see it through your "red glasses".

I'm done arguing about it and I'm done listening to you try to justify this guy's dirty hits. I don't care if Jake Voracek takes the high road. That hit is the exact type of hit being eliminated from hockey. They pick and choose who to discipline. Kronwall isn't better at disguising it, he's just protected by Shanahan. I don't care if you see it that way or not.

[terp]

terp,

In your way of thinking, how stupid and careless does a player have to play before they are held responsible for putting themselves in a position to get hurt? Where do you draw the line? When is a player responsible for knowing what is going on around him on the ice, and when his he NOT responsible? These are not blindside hits. NONE of them are!

So is your rule that someone gets 2 seconds after they receive the puck before you can hit them? Three? Should we make it ten? How about 30? Just keep the 'ol head down, and no one can ever hit you in the good 'ol tHL (terp Hockey League).

And you're blaming Kronwall because he skates too well? ARe you kidding?! So I guess being too good a skater should be penalized now, is that it? Kronwall 2 minutes for being too quick on his skates! Give us a break! Take that Datsyuk goal back! He dangles way too good! Those poor goalies!

If you can't learn to keep your head up, there's a place for you in the tHL.

For the rest of us, we prefer big boy hockey in the NHL where you keep your head down at your own peril.

I agree with another poster's comment's about your reading comprehension. It's poor. Where in my post did I make a point other than that Kronwald hits to hurt? It is a straight forward point and I don't think there should be much debate about it given the number of players he's injured. I didn't address legality. In fact, I said explicitly that people may choose to debate the legality of some of his hits but that I didn't think there was any doubt that he hits to hurt.

So the next time you go off on another poster with your caps, punctuation, sarcasm and condescending tone, make sure you know what the **** you are talking about. Then maybe you'll have some credibility.

I also suggest you try to be more concise. Your longer posts get boring.

[Phillygrump]

@terp

It all boils down to the double standard in the league. One night you can't hit a defenseless player and the next night its ok. Like aziz said, it is unbelievable that NONE of Kronwall's hit have been reviewed by the league. THat is blatant favoritism. If some homer can't understand that or doesn't want to acknowledge that well, then what can you do.

Like it has been said by others and myself on here. Kronwall acts like he is about to give up the blue line and when the forwards dip their head down thinking they have the blue line Kronwall hits them with their head down. Is it their responsibility to keep their head up? Sure. Is the NHL giving them a false sense of security by telling them they are eliminating these hits? Yes. Is Kronwall luring them into letting their guard down by faking giving up the blue line? Yes. Is he then hitting them in the head full force with the intent to injure? Absolutely. There is no way after seeing these hits that he lays and how he lays them that I will ever believe his intent is not to injure players.

Thats all there is to it terp. You know it. I don't care if Jake decided he's not going to come out and say Kronwall is a dirty player and the hit was dirty. Is he really going to say that or is he going to take responsibility for his end of it and say he should have kept his head up? Classy Jake is going to take the high road and acknowledge that he isn't blameless in this and move past it. That doesn't prove the hit to be clean. It just means Jake knows he needs to be more careful because if you lower your head some dirty a-hole like Kronwall will hit you in the head.

Now I'm officially finished talking about dirty hits in the NHL. When someone serves Kronwall what he deserves I'll be back to enjoy it but thats it. I hope I lose the taste for vengeance by then.

[SpikeDDS]

@SpikeDDS

The one thing you can at least say about Ovie- despite him leaving his feet always, is he is not head hunting like Kronwall. The other thing is the Ovechkin will at least answer the bell and is not a big mangina like Kronwall.

I'm not sure if you haven't read my earlier posts on this issue, but if you haven't, I have already said that Kronwall was not honorable when Kesler almost miraculously got up after that hit and challenged Kronner to drop 'em. He should have. THAT was cowardly. A fair criticism. One I've made myself.

[SpikeDDS]

And yet another one where he leaves his feet:

Kronwall is an expert on his timing of how he does it, but make now doubt that he is leaving his feet and thrusting his body into the other player.

I've attached a freeze frame from this very video, but you are free to look at that very video frame by frame like I did if you want. Here is Kronwall at the point of initiating contact with Clowe. Please note that his left skate has not left the ice (knee has not yet fully extended either) at the time of first contact. And, by the way, by this time Clowe was already reacting to the oncoming hit by starting to lean back to avoid the check, and that's the only reason his skate comes as close to leaving the ice before the contact as it does...

but it doesn't. Not like Kesler's.

Even if it did, if you really think that 1/30th of a second difference in a blade being on or off the ice really makes the difference between charging and not charging, then we're gonna disagree. If you don't consider that "as or after contact is made," then we should just stop.

Hey, you picked the video, not me. I'm just showing it to you.

[SpikeDDS]

I agree with another poster's comment's about your reading comprehension. It's poor. Where in my post did I make a point other than that Kronwald hits to hurt? It is a straight forward point and I don't think there should be much debate about it given the number of players he's injured. I didn't address legality. In fact, I said explicitly that people may choose to debate the legality of some of his hits but that I didn't think there was any doubt that he hits to hurt.

So the next time you go off on another poster with your caps, punctuation, sarcasm and condescending tone, make sure you know what the **** you are talking about. Then maybe you'll have some credibility.

Fair enough. You're right. I misread it.

I didn't misread the aforementioned post. In fact, he misread my response.

My apologies.

[terp]

Fair enough. You're right. I misread it.

I didn't misread the aforementioned post. In fact, he misread my response.

My apologies.

No worries.

[terp]

@Phillygrump

The league has a wobbly standard and they are out of excuses. The only difference between Campbell and Shanahan is hipper packaging; supplemental discipline is still a joke.

I don't have a problem with Kronwall cleverly luring players into being vulnerable. Not much you can do to regulate that anyway. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with him hitting other players in the head and the fact that the league seems to look the other way when he leaves his feet. I just don't understand why they let it go. Of course I get that players need to protect themselves but I don't think a player should be subject to a brain injury in the event of a lapse.

[aziz]

It's NOT a charge if your feet leave the ice ONCE contact begins.

you just completely made that up. there is exactly nothing in the rules that says the timing of a guy leaving his skates has anything to do with anything.

42.1 Charging - A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

[canoli]

you just completely made that up.

That's okay Shanahan does it all the time, the way Campbell used to do...

[aziz]

good point. and, in another parallel to shanny and campbell, the justifying fiction is coming from a fan of the team in question.

[canoli]

Yah, it's basically broken, the whole "supplemental discipline" routine. It doesn't work consistently and once that's a FAIL everything else is pretty much meaningless.

[SpikeDDS]

you just completely made that up. there is exactly nothing in the rules that says the timing of a guy leaving his skates has anything to do with anything.

42.1 Charging - A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

Oh come on! I know it's not written in the rule book, but I didn't make it up either.

Listen to Shanahan's comments on Ovechkin's skates in the review of his charge on Michalek:

That is the standard to which I am referring with regard to this issue.

[aziz]

hey, look, ovechkin's left toe is still on the ice and he has already made initial contact with michalek. shanny must've screwed up, huh?

microseconds do not matter. if OV left the ice a fraction earlier or later, the point is he checked UP, not THROUGH. like kronwall does. notice in shanahan's thing in that video, he doesn't actually say the reason it was bad was because of the timing of leaving the ice, only that he did. more to the point, because he checked up into the head rather than straight through the shoulders.

what's more, leaving the ice or not does not qualify or disqualify a hit as a charge. a charge is any hit at all that is more violent than it needs to be, in the eyes of the refs or the league. notice the "in any manner" part of the rule. people use the "left his skates" thing as a shorthand, as a signal or benchmark of something that might be a charge, but it is not the core of the rule....and the before/after contact thing is irrelevant.

Edited March 9, 2012 by aziz

[SpikeDDS]

good point. and, in another parallel to shanny and campbell, the justifying fiction is coming from a fan of the team in question.

And even as I graciously apologized earlier in the thread for misreading another's post, I await your acknolwedgement of the standard not being created by this fan. It was made by Brendan Shanahan in a completely unrelated hit involving two unrelated teams. (See my earlier response.)

So much for the parallel.

Some of us fans are actually level-headed and make reasoned arguments even though you may disagree with us or not like our arguments, but to insinuate (as Grump likes to do) that I can't take off the red glasses is just flat wrong (see my earlier comments about both the need to review this hit by the league as well as my acknowledgement of the Kesler hit being close enough to be considered a charge, and saying that should have been reviewed too). I criticize my team when they deserve it, and have demonstrated that more than once in this very thread, but somehow it's still assumed that I'm a homer. I find that post interesting.

I'm a fair guy, and I love the game of hockey more than I love the Wings. I think the Wings are a dang good team and organization, but they aren't perfect, and they are not greater than the game itself. I think one of the reasons I like them as well as I do is that the leaders of the team understand that themselves. Nick Lidstrom, like his predecessor Steve Yzerman, chose to take a WAY lower salary than he could have made elsewhere to allow his team the financial ability to get better talent around him to allow them to win Cups. ($8M instead of an estimation of $13-14M.) In fact, I think most of the players on the Wings have taken somewhat of a salary hit in order to play there, because the front office clearly says, "Nobody gets paid more than Nick." They want to win. And if you love the game of hockey, you could do WAY worse than be a Red Wing fan. I'm proud to wear the winged wheel! But as much as like them, they don't overshadow the game itself, and when they screw up, I say it.

Can you say the same?

[AJgoal]

One of the other benchmarks used for charging that seems to have been forgotten in recent years was always the number of strides taken into a hit. That is, if you kept skating into a hit, rather than gliding and letting your momentum carry you into it, it was a charge. The definition of charging has always been fairly open to interpretation.

[aziz]

Some of us fans are actually level-headed and make reasoned arguments

and you've done a good job. mostly. the problem here is you are splitting the tiniest of hairs to justify the hit. leaning on the suggestion that he left his feet .00024 seconds after making contact, and thus it was ok, is silly. the physics don't care. up is up, and launching yourself into someone's face is launching yourself into someone's face. you have to squint REAL hard to see the timing as any kind of difference maker on the play. a minute technicality that you think ought to absolve kronwall of blasting people in the face.

[aziz]

I'm proud to wear the winged wheel! But as much as like them, they don't overshadow the game itself, and when they screw up, I say it.

Can you say the same?

yes.

downie should have kept his arms down when he hit mccammond.

there.

[aziz]

One of the other benchmarks used for charging that seems to have been forgotten in recent years was always the number of strides taken into a hit. That is, if you kept skating into a hit, rather than gliding and letting your momentum carry you into it, it was a charge. The definition of charging has always been fairly open to interpretation.

exactly, it was a rough guideline, not actually part of the rule. it got mentioned enough that fans at some point decided it was the letter of the law and would define charges by that one single criteria.

now, the 3 steps has fallen out of favor, replaced by the left-his-skates thing. which, apparently, has been further refined into left-his-skates-fractions-of-a-second-before-contact.

[SpikeDDS]

notice in shanahan's thing in that video, he doesn't actually say the reason it was bad was because of the timing of leaving the ice, only that he did.

<sigh>

I'm going to exactly quote Shanahan's words:

"Often on big hits or collisions, a player's feet will come off the ice slightly as a result of the impact."

Result means it happens as or after the contact is made. Contact CAUSES feet to leave the ice. If you've ever actually laid a hit on someone, you would understand.

Slightly means not very far off the ice. Kronwall's skates are not even close to where Ovie's are. Ovie clearly JUMPS/LAUNCHES into the hit (Shanny's words, not mine). That's the only reason he's able to hit Michalek's head i.e. he targets the head. Kronner's skates leave the ice, but not far at all, and only after contact is initiated. Ovie jumped in order to hit the head. That's a charge. Kronwall didn't jump.