Bryzgalov - Why he won't be moved

[aziz]

<br />A few seasons ago, i thought scott hartnell was the worst hockey player i saw not, not named riley cote. nest hting i know he is leading the team in goals.<br />

man, am I feeling negative tonight.

I think you saw the real scott hartnell, then you saw a guy who had claude giroux and jaromir jagr bouncing pucks in off his stick for a season, then you saw the real scott hartnell again. with his 7 points in 19 games.

which, of course, was again misread by Holmgren and a huge extension was handed out based on environmental factors. the guy really is a tool.

[brelic]

if bryzgalov had continued to post the numbers in philly that he did in phoenix, he would be well worth his price and this conversation wouldn't be happening.

But he did exactly that.

Last year: 2.48, .909

The previous year in PHoenix: 2.48, .921.

His GAA was identical, and his GAA was within his career range.

There's more of an argument to be made this year, but there might be other factors at play, like fatigue. He started the season very strongly, and then leveled off, while the team's defense in front of him has not played very well, and has been walking wounded practically the entire season.

Even with all of that, his numbers this year are still better than one of his PHoenix year (right before the two Vezina-worthy seasons). In fact, the Vezina years are the exceptional years of his career, i.e. his peak. It was unreasonable to expect him to do better; it was more reasonable to expect a similar performance. I know that age can be a lesser factor with goaltenders though.

It's just standard practice to blame goaltending in Philly. Even Ryan Miller would not look very good behind this defense.

[JackStraw]

I'm not sure, but what if they buy out Briere, trade Hartnell and Kimmo, and buy out Pronger. Would that solve the cap issue.

If the trade for Clowe was real, is he a cheaper version of Hartnell?

I don't think they can buy out Pronger as long as he is injured. Which is probably going to be for the duration of his contract.

[doom88]

But he did exactly that.

Last year: 2.48, .909

The previous year in PHoenix: 2.48, .921.

His GAA was identical, and his GAA was within his career range.

There's more of an argument to be made this year, but there might be other factors at play, like fatigue. He started the season very strongly, and then leveled off, while the team's defense in front of him has not played very well, and has been walking wounded practically the entire season.

Even with all of that, his numbers this year are still better than one of his PHoenix year (right before the two Vezina-worthy seasons). In fact, the Vezina years are the exceptional years of his career, i.e. his peak. It was unreasonable to expect him to do better; it was more reasonable to expect a similar performance. I know that age can be a lesser factor with goaltenders though.

It's just standard practice to blame goaltending in Philly. Even Ryan Miller would not look very good behind this defense.

Those save percentages are very different.

I think sv# is more of a reflection of the goalie's play. If a goalie can control rebounds and maintain a respectable save percentage, they should be doing well in most other stats as well.

Bryz isn't doing that basic task. Keep more out than in. He's old enough to play well consistently, but doesn't.

Ryan Miller is a whiny B who can't handle criticism. Do not want. Enroth ain't bad though, shows some promise.

[aziz]

But he did exactly that.

Last year: 2.48, .909

The previous year in PHoenix: 2.48, .921.

the huge spread in save percentage is what is telling.

Even with all of that, his numbers this year are still better than one of his PHoenix year (right before the two Vezina-worthy seasons). In fact, the Vezina years are the exceptional years of his career, i.e. his peak. It was unreasonable to expect him to do better; it was more reasonable to expect a similar performance.

i'll go further and say it was reasonable to view his whole career and see those two seasons as the outliers, and figure his "normal" would actually be in the mediocre range of .905-.910. but no, holmgren, snider, and half of philadelphia took the three high end seasons and decided that's what he was and would be for years and years. just as briere's career as a 60 point forward was ignored in favor of a pair of point/game seasons.

It's just standard practice to blame goaltending in Philly. Even Ryan Miller would not look very good behind this defense.

who is blaming goaltending? bryzgalov is crap and his ROI only breaks even if his cap hit is $2mil/yr, but i'm not saying he is the reason the flyers are a mess. he's just part of it. a solvable part of it.

and, for what it's worth, it has happened that good goalies have managed to look good on bad teams. lundqvist was still an obviously elite goaltender on some very bad rangers' squads over the years. cary price never left the high end discussion despite some truly embarrassing canadians' teams. miikka kiprusoff was regarded as amongst the best around, even though he played in calgary. thomas vokoun posted more .920+ seasons than anyone else in the league from 2006 through 2011 while playing behind some of the worst defenses the league has seen since the nordiques moved to colorado. roberto luongo put up amazing numbers while in florida, and was an allstar while with them once.

none of those goalies managed to make their terrible teams successful, but the fact that they played behind some horrific lineups did not make them *appear* to be complete sieves. they didn't win many games, but they still looked like they were quality goalies. bryzgalov's sieveness is his own creation. the fact that he doesn't look like a quality goalie right now is because he is not a quality goalie.

[flyercanuck]

But he did exactly that.

Last year: 2.48, .909

The previous year in PHoenix: 2.48, .921.

His GAA was identical, and his GAA was within his career range.

There's more of an argument to be made this year, but there might be other factors at play, like fatigue. He started the season very strongly, and then leveled off, while the team's defense in front of him has not played very well, and has been walking wounded practically the entire season.

Even with all of that, his numbers this year are still better than one of his PHoenix year (right before the two Vezina-worthy seasons). In fact, the Vezina years are the exceptional years of his career, i.e. his peak. It was unreasonable to expect him to do better; it was more reasonable to expect a similar performance. I know that age can be a lesser factor with goaltenders though.

It's just standard practice to blame goaltending in Philly. Even Ryan Miller would not look very good behind this defense.

Even Ryan Miller? He's about the only goalie in the league who's as bad as Bryz both in net and salary.

[brelic]

the huge spread in save percentage is what is telling.

Yes, that's true. In the NHL, there's a big difference between .909 and .921. But the fact remains that .909 is well within his career range, which tells me the Flyers got what they bargained for.

i'll go further and say it was reasonable to view his whole career and see those two seasons as the outliers, and figure his "normal" would actually be in the mediocre range of .905-.910. but no, holmgren, snider, and half of philadelphia took the three high end seasons and decided that's what he was and would be for years and years. just as briere's career as a 60 point forward was ignored in favor of a pair of point/game seasons.

I'm with you. That was a stupid signing with a stupid contract. Absolutely nothing about that whole story says "smart business move." It was a complete knee jerk emotional reaction. The biggest deficiency is that the Flyers always seem to be one or two moves behind (i.e. reactive vs. proactive as someone else said). A smart, proactive, visionary GM would have hung on to Bobrovsky and groomed him to be the starter behind either Bryzgalov or Vokoun (on a 3 year contract max). Giving him 9 years was the equivalent of giving Bob the finger.

And how's Bob doing? 2.13, .927, on freaking COLUMBUS.

who is blaming goaltending? bryzgalov is crap and his ROI only breaks even if his cap hit is $2mil/yr, but i'm not saying he is the reason the flyers are a mess. he's just part of it. a solvable part of it.

I didn't mean you specifically. I just meant us Flyers fans in general, myself included. Over the years, goaltending has been the easy scapegoat.

and, for what it's worth, it has happened that good goalies have managed to look good on bad teams. lundqvist was still an obviously elite goaltender on some very bad rangers' squads over the years. cary price never left the high end discussion despite some truly embarrassing canadians' teams. miikka kiprusoff was regarded as amongst the best around, even though he played in calgary. thomas vokoun posted more .920+ seasons than anyone else in the league from 2006 through 2011 while playing behind some of the worst defenses the league has seen since the nordiques moved to colorado. roberto luongo put up amazing numbers while in florida, and was an allstar while with them once.

none of those goalies managed to make their terrible teams successful, but the fact that they played behind some horrific lineups did not make them *appear* to be complete sieves. they didn't win many games, but they still looked like they were quality goalies. bryzgalov's sieveness is his own creation. the fact that he doesn't look like a quality goalie right now is because he is not a quality goalie.

I don't want to rehash an old discussion point, but I wonder if it's more of a function of bad (or mismatched) system in Philly versus horrific lineup. I just can't believe that we continually manage to assemble bad defensive lineups. Under Stevens, we had some pretty bad lineups too, but seemed much more sound defensively.

But you're absolutely right about good goalies still look good on bad teams. Anyone looking objectively at Vokoun's and Bryzgalov's stats should conclude that Vokoun is a better goaltender (by statistical standards and by subjective standards). So why we were so ready to back up the truck for Bryz? Because he's 4 years younger?

I'm actually dreading the trade deadline this year.

[brelic]

Even Ryan Miller? He's about the only goalie in the league who's as bad as Bryz both in net and salary.

LOL, I just mentioned him because I've heard his name in rumours. I've never been a fan of his either.

[FD19372]

maybe. would help, anyway.

I just don't get the motivation to hold on to bryzgalov. if nothing else, there is cap flexibility to be gained, why keep the guy taking up 3 times more cap space than he is worth? given no other options, drop him, sign garon, get the same quality of play for a fraction of the price. and then start looking for a real goalie. crap is crap, it's just a matter of how much the flyers want to pay for it.

I like the idea of buying out all these contracts. Good luck buying Bryz out at his price/length of deal. That's a lot of money to waste on a guy, when they haven't had a good goalie for years. Is he Lundqvist? No, but he's sure as hell better than what they have had in the franchise's recent past. In back of that sucky d, Garon won't be any better than he is. The crap is the d they are now stuck with, with guys that are long in tooth (Timonen, Briere) and overpaid (Coburn). I would be happy if they could clear out some cap space. They NEED to sign Weber this summer and go from there. I would like to see them in the playoffs, but I don't see us being the Kings of last year with our roster. The Kings have a TON of talent and our roster. doesn't. On a different subject, I hope to God they don't trade any of their young talent (Read, Couturier, Schenn) for a quick fix, because if they trade ANY of these guys for a player like Clowe it would be MONUMENTALLY stupid.

[CoachX]

All of these points are solid. I will still contend thouugh that Bryz will not be moved. the flyers wanted him and thought he was the answer in goal. that is why they signed him long term and at that price. they have an out if they choose to use it. however, one of those options must be used on briere. this leave one to work with. given that the team is awful, and the season is shortened, bryz will get a pass. that puts him down as being a viable option for the second buy out (if not already used). if he has a good season next year (lets look at it like a contract year), the team could be convinced to keep him.

[jammer2]

All I have to say about this thread is.....as a lifelong fan, I deserve better than Bryz....in fact, I deserve a life without Bryz. He's crap, he will never get better, he might slightly improve with a better defense, but once you let in sofites, it does not just go away....most of his softies are stoppable AND clear looks.....

Keeping Bryz, represents a life with hope as a hockey fan. They keep him, and the softies come back (which they will), the all out show of hatred for this management group will be so overwhelming, it will be silly....rally's to fire Homer...daily, weekly whatever...if you were Homer, would you put all your eggs in the Bryz basket???

Edited April 2, 2013 by jammer2