brelic Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 We talk a lot about how Homer hands out NMC/NTC like candy, so I figured I'd take a look at whether or not it's worse compared to other teams. Turns out they're in the top third of the league. Not the worst offenders, but not far off either. 6 of the top 7 teams have all been to the Cup finals in the past 4 years. The other Cup winner during that time is dead last in terms of NMC/NTC, and both of those were given by another team. So the Kings have not given out a single NMC/NTC. Think Hextall brings some of that with him? So, looking at it purely on the surface, it appears that the teams who win or who are often in a position to win have players that demand NMC/NTC clauses because they don't want to be traded away from those teams without some form of control over where they go. Does anyone really want to go from Pittsburgh to Edmonton? Does anyone want to go to Edmonton, period? Penguins, 11 - (6 F, 3 D, 2 G)Bruins, 11 - (7 F, 3 D, 1 G)Stars, 11 - (6 F, 4 D, 1 G)Red Wings, 10 - (6 F, 2 D, 2 G)Canucks, 10 - (5 F, 4 D, 1 G)Hawks, 9 - (5 F, 4 D) Flyers, 8 - (3 F, 5 D)Caps, 8 - (6 F, 2 D)Wild, 8 (5 F, 2 D, 1 G)Lightning, 8 - (4 F, 4 D) Hurricanes, 7 - (4 F, 2 D, 1 G)Devils, 7 - (4 F, 2 D, 1 G)Jets, 7 - (4 F, 3 D)Predators, 7 (6 F, 1 D)Coyotes, 7 - (4 F, 2 D, 1 G)Sharks, 7 - (5 F, 2 D)Leafs, 7 - (5 F, 2 D)Canadiens, 7 - (5 F, 2 D)Ducks, 6 (4 F, 2 D)Blues, 6 - (2 F, 4 D)Blue Jackets, 5 - (3 F, 2 D)Senators, 5 - (3 F, 2 D)Flames, 5 - (3 F, 2 D)Panthers, 4 - (2 F, 1 D, 1 G)Sabres, 4 - (1 F, 2 D, 1 G)Rangers, 3 - (2 F, 1 D)Avalanche, 3 - (1 F, 1 D, 1 G)Oilers, 2 - (1 F, 1 D)Islanders, 2 - (1 F, 1 D)Kings, 2 - (1 F, 1 G) ***Both NMC/NTC come on contracts from a trade with the Leafs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Interesting. I'd looked enough before to know the Flyers didn't lead the pack. But one thing I noticed in looking at your numbers that I didn't previously is that the Flyers lead in DEFENSEMEN with NMC/NTCs. I don't know whether that's significant, but it is amazing that 5/6 defensmen have NMC/NTC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I would have thought we would be higher truthfully. I think it goes to show that some Teams hand out NTC/NMC more than the Flyers but I think it goes deeper than what is projected on the surface here. You have to look at the Players and the production each Team gets out of those players. For instance, I would expect the Pens to hand out a NMC/NTC to players like Crosby, Malkin and LeTang. Two of those 3 players are generational talents and the other is a very skilled offensive defenseman. Same w/ the Bruins, Red Wings and Hawks... Meanwhile, we have Hartnell... Although, when you see Teams like the Devils in the top 3rd it make you wonder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarsippius Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I think it goes deeper than what is projected on the surface here. You have to look at the Players and the production each Team gets out of those players. Exactly! There are 3 kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics. The number of NTCs is a relevant stat, but not the one that tells the story. Is there a list out there that shows by team the number NTCs given to stiffs / old guys? Also the presence of NTC is significant in relation to the number of years on the deal. Boil these two attributes into the stat and you might just have someting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 (edited) Interesting. I'd looked enough before to know the Flyers didn't lead the pack. But one thing I noticed in looking at your numbers that I didn't previously is that the Flyers lead in DEFENSEMEN with NMC/NTCs. I don't know whether that's significant, but it is amazing that 5/6 defensmen have NMC/NTC Rux, I think this goes back to the "shotgun mentality" of the Flyers. They look at a Player and say "yeah, this is a guy we can build around and we want him to be the Flyers property"... only to find out they were dead wrong in the evaluation/projection process and get stuck w/ the Player. Edited October 14, 2013 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 You have to look at the Players and the production each Team gets out of those players. For instance, I would expect the Pens to hand out a NMC/NTC to players like Crosby, Malkin and LeTang. Two of those 3 players are generational talents and the other is a very skilled offensive defenseman. Same w/ the Bruins, Red Wings and Hawks... what is really interesting, though, is that isn't really the case. detroit, for example, has some form of NTC/NMC for datsyuk, weiss, alfredsson, samuelsson, bertuzzi, cleary, kronwall, ericsson, howard and gustavsson. really, only one guy there that would fit the description, and nothing for zetterberg. pittsburgh: malkin, crosby, neal, dupuis, kunitz, jokinen, martin, orpik, scuderi, fluery and vokoun. again, 2 guys that really fit the description, and letang doesn't have one. chicago: kane, toews, sharp, bickell, handzus, seabrook, keith, oduya, rozsival. handzus, man, handzus. it looks to me like movement restrictions are just things that players of any note at all are demanding be part of their deals. maybe the problem isn't holmgren giving them out all over the place, but holmgren not holding them up as concessions in exchange for term or size. because you are right, only the generational talents/absolute stars seem to have NMC on deals that last more than 4 years. except in philly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Aziz... after that post I might sing YOU to a NMC/NTC All very good points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario99 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Who cares if they have NMC/NTC nobody wants these stiffs, so what's the difference 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Who cares if they have NMC/NTC nobody wants these stiffs, so what's the difference The difference is that in the case of an NMC, you can't even demote the player. The difference is that if you want to include one of those guys in a package, you can't without their consent. Remember Gagne? The difference is that you handcuff your own ability to make your team better by making moves, when they are necessary. Make no mistake, there is a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 The frustrating part of Homer's NTC/NMC's in general are they are given out when the player does not have any real leverage. Average non-star players should not have, nor do they have any type of perceived leverage, so...Homer should tell these agents to go pound salt. It's not like they are thrown in to reduce the cap hit or length, so why *does* Homer cave so easily? The only current Flyers who should have one are Vorachek (and that is sketchy based on one year of production) and Giroux (despite recent troubles)....at least they have the skill and talent to demand/receive one. These agents are pulling the wool over Homer's eyes, selling something that is not real. These things should be saved for special talents, not a vet d-man who can't skate his way out of trouble. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Good information here. I guess it isn't really Homer's fault after all. He's got to work on those terms though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Thanks brelic! Spot on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 @brelic yeah, excellent work bre! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 In a sense, that number for the Flyers is more like 10 then 8, because they *just* bought out Briere and Breeze. I agree with those who indicated that the real meaning of this is *who* are the players with NMC/NMC - not necessarily how many. And the truth is, of the remaining players on the Flyers roster with NMC/NTC, there is only one no-brainer: Giroux. So the stat doesn't mean much without analyzing the players who the clause is fastened to. And to that point, I have to say I am surprised how many so-so players Holland gave the clause to. The fact that Zetterberg doesn't have the clause is shocking, I should say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensuck Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 It Comes Down To Simple Talent Evaluation. We Seen To Over Value A Player, Lock Him Into A Long Term Deal With A Ntc/Nmc. For One ReAson Or Another The players We Lock Up Tend To Suck After They'reLocked Up. Talent Evaluation Problems??? I Think So... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 It Comes Down To Simple Talent Evaluation. We Seen To Over Value A Player, Lock Him Into A Long Term Deal With A Ntc/Nmc. For One ReAson Or Another The players We Lock Up Tend To Suck After They'reLocked Up. Talent Evaluation Problems??? I Think So... What Is With Every Word Being Capitalized? lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I don't know whether that's significant, but it is amazing that 5/6 defensmen have NMC/NTC You mis-spelled "appalling". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensuck Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 @MurrCravenEver Since My Last Droid Update This Has Been Happening. It's Very Annoying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 @pensuck... it is pretty funny though... I can always tell your posts w/out looking at the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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